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Re: Gods preserve cooks from vegetarians

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  • DONALD FISK
    ... Colocasium is lotus root. ... Is marjoram a substitute for fleabane? Does anyone know the original Latin? ... Are you by any change using Vehling s
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 8, 1999
      > Add;
      > original recipe calls for
      > oil, satury(summer savory), dill, dry onion(I believe this indicates the type
      > of onion not "dried"), colocasium(taro root aka dasheen), coriander, salt,

      Colocasium is lotus root.

      > pepper, lovage, dry fleabane(marjoram), cumin, silphium(laser or asa foetida

      Is marjoram a substitute for fleabane? Does anyone know the original Latin?
      > aka hing), vinegar, reduced must,broth

      > redaction;

      Are you by any change using Vehling's translation? It has this recipe as
      #200. In John Edward's translation, pig's knuckle is used instead of
      colocasium.

      Regards,
      Donald
    • Catiline
      The full Latin text of Apicius can be found on my web pages at http://users.ipa.net/~tanker. If you will go through the main page, you are guaranteed to get
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 8, 1999
        The full Latin text of Apicius can be found on my web pages at
        http://users.ipa.net/~tanker. If you will go through the main page, you
        are guaranteed to get to the text, which might well move in the future.

        I am still proofreading the text while working on a commentary. If you
        cannot get to the web page, send me the recipe number, from the text of
        Andre or Milham, and I will post the Latin.

        Although I am aware of Vehling's translation, I have not yet seen it,
        and cannot refer to his recipe numbers.

        Bon appetit.
      • ChannonM@xxx.xxx
        In a message dated 3/8/99 5:14:25 PM Eastern Standard Time, hibou@enterprise.net writes:
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 10, 1999
          In a message dated 3/8/99 5:14:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          hibou@... writes:

          << Vehling's translation? >>

          Unfortunately yes, can you help me out with a better translation? I am waiting
          as we speak for the recommended English version , I found one in out of print
          resales(there was another if anyone is interested). Until I get it I'm out of
          luck because I can't translate Latin.

          For marjoram used as a substitute for fleabane, I was using an herbal book
          and if I recall it referred to fleabane as "wild marjoram" or oregano. I'm
          searching as I write. When I find it I'll email it in.

          Channon
        • Philip & Susan Troy
          ... Can anyone tell me specifically, by either Latin name, or by actual Apician book-and-recipe number, what dish people are talking about? I have a copy of
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 11, 1999
            Apicius@onelist.com wrote:
            >
            > From: ChannonM@...
            > Subject: Re: Gods preserve cooks from vegetarians
            >
            > In a message dated 3/8/99 5:14:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            > hibou@... writes:
            >
            > << Vehling's translation? >>
            >
            > Unfortunately yes, can you help me out with a better translation? I am waiting
            > as we speak for the recommended English version , I found one in out of print
            > resales(there was another if anyone is interested). Until I get it I'm out of
            > luck because I can't translate Latin.
            >
            > For marjoram used as a substitute for fleabane, I was using an herbal book
            > and if I recall it referred to fleabane as "wild marjoram" or oregano. I'm
            > searching as I write. When I find it I'll email it in.
            >
            > Channon

            Can anyone tell me specifically, by either Latin name, or by actual
            Apician book-and-recipe number, what dish people are talking about? I
            have a copy of the 1958 Flower and Rosenbaum translation, in my opinion
            the definitive version among those I've seen, and I may be able to post
            a Latin and an English version.

            FWIW, many Apician recipes call for pennyroyal, which is an excellent
            flea repellent, and all other things being equal, I wonder if that's
            what the recipe is talking about. Of course they're _not_ equal, and I
            know I'm speaking from a very incomplete set of facts here. If anyone
            can provide an actual, non-Vehling recipe number and book number, I
            might be able to help.

            Phil Troy
            --
            Phil & Susan Troy

            troy@...
          • Maureen B. Fant
            ... That would be pulegium, which is the modern Roman mentuccia (Mentha pulegium L.), the characteristic wild mint used in carciofi (artichokes) alla romana.
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 11, 1999
              >From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy@...>
              >To: Apicius@onelist.com
              >Subject: [Apicius] Re: Gods preserve cooks from vegetarians
              >Date: Thu, Mar 11, 1999, 12:38 PM
              >

              > many Apician recipes call for pennyroyal
              ----------

              That would be pulegium, which is the modern Roman mentuccia (Mentha pulegium
              L.), the characteristic wild mint used in carciofi (artichokes) alla romana.
              Marjoram, also known in modern Rome as persa, is Origanum majorana or
              Majorana hortensis L., extremely typical of traditional Roman cooking
              (essential in pollo alla romana), but quite different from mentuccia. And
              FWIW, mentuccia means something else outside Rome, and menta romana, used on
              tripe, is something else again.

              Maureen Fant


              --
              Dictionary of Italian Cuisine, by Maureen B. Fant and Howard M. Isaacs, Ecco
              Press, 1998.
            • DONALD FISK
              From: Catiline ... Most appreciated. I can t get a copy of Flower and Rosenbaum, so the only Latin versions I have are for the recipes in
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 15, 1999
                From: Catiline <tanker@...>

                > The full Latin text of Apicius can be found on my web pages at
                > http://users.ipa.net/~tanker. If you will go through the main page, you
                > are guaranteed to get to the text, which might well move in the future.

                Most appreciated. I can't get a copy of Flower and Rosenbaum, so
                the only Latin versions I have are for the recipes in Giacosa's book.

                Regarding your comment: "Absinthium Romanum
                This recipe is toxic, and should never be prepared."

                I have prepared this on several occasions, and am not dead yet. In fact,
                it didn't even make me ill.

                "This recipe is toxic, and should never be prepared.
                {110} Aliter holus molle: ne arescat, summa quaeque amputantur et purgamenta et caules madefactos in aqua absinthi
                contegito."

                You seem to have a downer on wormwood. To quote from the absinthe FAQ:
                "Indeed, thujone has long been considered to be the neurotoxic cause of
                absinthism.

                However, the direct evidence to support this idea is scant. Absinthe
                is 75% alcohol. Therefore, alcohol's effects will limit the
                amount of thujone one can ingest. Quite simply, you can only
                drink a moderate amount of absinthe before you become very
                drunk from the alcohol. Thujone would have to be active at a
                very low dose or be present in high quantities in order to have
                any appreciable effect. In the "This and That" column in Trends
                in the Pharmacological Sciences, "B. Max" made the
                following dose calculations:

                How much thujone was present in absinthe? Steam distillation of
                wormwood yields 0.27-0.40% of a bitter, dark-green oil (3)
                In a typical recipe for absinthe, 2.5 kg of wormwood were used in
                preparing 100 liters of absinthe (4). Typically, 1.5 oz was
                consumed (diluted with water) per tipple (5). This is equivalent
                to 4.4 mg wormwood oil per drink, or 2-4 mg thujone. This is
                far below the level at which acute pharmacological effects are
                observed. Even chronic administration of 10 mg/kg thujone to
                rats does not alter spontaneous activity of conditioned behavior
                (6). The literature on the pharmacology of thujone is, to put it
                bluntly, second rate, and conclusions as to its effects have
                been extrapolated far beyond the experimental base (7). "

                This refers to the drink consumed around 100 years ago, and subsequently
                banned in many countries. It is regarded as sufficiently safe for its
                consumption to be permitted in the UK, though.

                Note that the Roman version is weaker still (in both thujone and alcohol):
                The ingredient quantities are precisely specified in the original, and while
                bitter, it is nowhere near unpalatable.

                This is not to say that wormwood is entirely harmless: it's one of a
                handful of herbs (others include rue, pennyroyal and lovage -- all
                used by Apicius) I would advise avoiding during pregnancy.

                Regards,
                Donald
              • Catiline
                Thanks for the info, and I am not in a position to argue one way or another about the soundness of the science on either side. Perhaps some day a consensus
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 15, 1999
                  Thanks for the info, and I am not in a position to argue one way or
                  another about the soundness of the science on either side. Perhaps some
                  day a consensus will arrive among the drug agencies. I'll feel more
                  comfortable when the FDA decides that wormwood can be safely taken.

                  As it stands, I think I would be irresponsible not to print any warning
                  at all, though I may have to reconsider about the controversy over
                  wormwood.

                  Thanks again.
                • Susan Hryckiewicz
                  ... Fleabane When I looked up my herbal references I found the following possibilities: Fleabane - Canadian Fleabane - Eregeron canadensis However, it is
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 21, 1999
                    > From: ChannonM@...
                    > For marjoram used as a substitute for fleabane, I was using an
                    > herbal book and if I recall it referred to fleabane as "wild
                    > marjoram" or oregano. I'm searching as I write. When I find it
                    > I'll email it in.
                    >
                    > Channon
                    >
                    'Fleabane'
                    When I looked up my herbal references I found the following
                    possibilities:
                    Fleabane - Canadian Fleabane - Eregeron canadensis
                    However, it is from eastern and central North America and not introduced
                    to France until 1653 and as such is unliekely to be the herb mentiooned.

                    Flea Seed - AKA Fleawort - Plantago psyllium
                    Native to mediterranean, esp France, Spain & North Africa. The seeds
                    (which appear flea shaped) swell in water due to high mucilage content.
                    Main medicinal use - emollient, laxative, purgative.

                    Flea Wood - Bog Myrtle, Sweet Gale - Myrica gale
                    Used to flavour beer in northern Europe, native to north west Europe,
                    North America and Asia

                    'Food' by Waverly Root had further descriptions which may narrow the
                    field.
                    "The ancient Romans ate both the flea-plant, a mint like herb believed
                    deadly to fleas, and flea wort, reputed to be an aphrodisiac whose
                    virtues included the ability to produce male infants when both parents
                    drank its sap."

                    Also, from experience, Marjoram and oregano develop a minty flavour when
                    dried.

                    I am not sure whether this helps or hinders.
                    S*
                    Susan Hryckiewicz
                    Selivia de l'Estoile, Lochac (Australia)

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