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Kykeon

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  • viv353
    Good morning from Athens :-)) I have been following your discussions for quite a long time , but I hesitated so far to post something. I am very much
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 8, 2002
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      Good morning from Athens :-))

      I have been following your discussions for quite a long time , but I
      hesitated so far to post something.

      I am very much interested in "Kykeon".

      I have read what Sally Grainger and Andrew Dalby have written in
      their book, but last night in another discussion group, someone sent
      a message connecting Kykeon with the Eleusinean Mysteries.
      He said that Kykeon had an hallucinatory effect on those who were
      drinking it and it was an important part of the cult of Eleusinean
      Mysteres.The ingredient that causes this hallucinatory effect, is
      still a matter of investigation.

      Do you have any idea on that or can you suggest me any sources for me
      to check?

      Thank you in advance

      Vivian Efthymiopoulos
    • Justin Mansfield
      Here s a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly, cyceon): http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html Well done.
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 23, 2012
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        Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly,
        cyceon):

        http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html

        Well done.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sallygrain@aol.com
        It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name. Diluting it makes
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 23, 2012
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          It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name. Diluting it makes sence too

          sally


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
          To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:29
          Subject: [Apicius] Kykeon





          Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly,
          cyceon):

          http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html

          Well done.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Warriior Chef
          Buttermilk works well enough as an idea... ... From: sallygrain@aol.com To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:55 AM Subject: Re:
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 23, 2012
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            Buttermilk works well enough as an idea...

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: sallygrain@...
            To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:55 AM
            Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon




            It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name. Diluting it makes sence too

            sally

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
            To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:29
            Subject: [Apicius] Kykeon

            Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly,
            cyceon):

            http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html

            Well done.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Kimetha Loidolt
            Actually a version of this made with whey, honey, and herbs is mentioned in many of the writings of physicians of the period. Hipprocates is quoted as writing
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 23, 2012
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              Actually a version of this made with whey, honey, and herbs is mentioned in many of the writings of physicians of the period.

              Hipprocates is quoted as writing "...when Adrianus, the son of Ceneus, had a pain all around the belly,...prescribed goats whey, boiled..", Galen of Pergamon a 2nd century Physician drew on Hipprocates writings he wrote "...Simple whey is particularly proper for tender patients...whey is also safely exhibited to children, women, and old persons, even during the heat of a fever..."

              Is it possible that whey was the liquid used to make the drink?

              Kimetha Loidolt
              kloidolt@...<mailto:kloidolt@...>


              ________________________________
              From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Warriior Chef
              Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:12 PM
              To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon



              Buttermilk works well enough as an idea...

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: sallygrain@...<mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com>
              To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:55 AM
              Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon

              It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name. Diluting it makes sence too

              sally

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...<mailto:iustinus%40gmail.com>>
              To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>>
              Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:29
              Subject: [Apicius] Kykeon

              Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly,
              cyceon):

              http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html

              Well done.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Phoenix
              Whey is not the same as barley water that has been left to ferment overnight or for a few days - the effect and flavor are not the same. Whey is mild (though
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 17, 2012
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                Whey is not the same as barley water that has been left to ferment
                overnight or for a few days - the effect and flavor are not the same.
                Whey is mild (though the scent may not be that mild for goat whey) and
                perhaps an easier to digest liquid than whole milk for those who are
                sick. There are a couple of recipes for using it on the Wikipedia page
                ("Wine whey" and "Cream of Tartar whey"):
                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey

                Here is a link to yummy recipe for palak paneer, which uses whey along
                with the homemade cheese, paneer.
                http://www.toomanychefs.com/archives/001367.php

                There is a chapter about Kykeon in Karl Kerenyi's Eleusis:Archetypal
                Image of Mother and Daughter. He wrote:

                "Ovid's addition to the Homeric recipe is contained in the word tosta.
                Tosta polenta means roasted barley groats. Obviously this addition
                springs from a Greek source, for among Greeks barley was roasted before
                being crushed into groats: Graeci perfusum aqua hordeum siccant nocte
                una ac postero frigunt, deinde molis frangunt. (The Greeks dry for one
                night the barley that has been soaked in water; afterward they roast it,
                and then they crush ity between two stones.") [footnote 5] In
                accordance with a law of Solon, the phrugetron, the vessel for roasting
                barley, was carried by the bride in the nuptial procession as a symbol
                of the housewife's duties (Pollux I 246). Roasted barley in water
                produces malt and a drink which may taste sweet without the addition of
                any sweetening whatever and become alcoholic after short fermentation.
                [footnote 6] The Goddess had no need to wait for fermentation before
                her kykeon became alcoholic. We have testimony to the effect that the
                kykeon was - illicitly - drunk in Athens on the day before the
                procession to Eleusis (see p. 62), and we also know the form of the
                characteristic vessels in which the beverage was carried in the
                procession. [footnote 7] It can be inferred from Arnobius' word ebibi
                ("I drank out," "I drank the whole potion") that a definite dose had to
                be taken. The dose in that case would have been the exact quantity
                contained in the small pots carried in the hands of the men in the
                procession. " (pp.178-179)

                Kerenyi then references personal correspondence from Albert Hoffman
                regarding the phenomenon of visions and or hallucinations that can come
                from fasting alone, as well as in combination with even mild doses of
                alcohol or other entheogens.

                Pennyroyal (mentha pulegium) has a pleasant minty scent and taste, but
                in large quantities it can produce mild euphoria - it is also used as an
                emmenagogue to make the menses flow when there is pain, cramping, or a
                pregnancy to be terminated, if one knows their herbal medicine well
                enough. The article mentions this in the recipe for 'the red flux'.

                When our Chicago Earthstar group was up & running in the '80s, we made
                Demeter's kykeon, covering it with cloth and letting it ferment
                overnight, and another batch sat for three days. It was a mild and
                pleasant buzz, undoubtedly with more powerful effect if one has done a
                complete fast for a day or more beforehand. This was done without
                mixing it with wine, of course, since it is the Goddess' drink.

                Regarding curdling, there is no mention of whey or milk for the sacred
                kykeon recipe, but since the word means 'stirred, mixed drink', why
                would curds for the medicinal or relaxing dairy mixture be unpleasant?
                It is not as thoroughly blended as a modern milkshake, but it is along
                those lines, texture wise, if one is a good stirrer. A previous post
                mentions buttermilk, a great example of a thick drink. How about eggnog
                as a mildly thickened beverage? Kefir is a thick curdled drink, a sort
                of yogurt-like beverage, and it is a popular enough item to be in
                mainstream grocery stores. There are Japanese soda pop's that come with
                tapioca pearls in them. The kykeon we made was thinner than kefir, not
                quite as thin as the Japanese pop or gruel-like but a slightly thickened
                drink with a mild 'kick'.

                Another thing to be aware of regarding visions and ritual intoxication
                with kykeon is that the poppy is the flower of Demeter (and associated
                with Hypnos, Thanatos, Asklepios, Nyx, Aphrodite, Adonis). The poppy
                grew wild in ancient wheat fields, and it was also cultivated in
                rotation with grains to give the fields 'rest' before planting grain on
                them again. The poppy juice could be an unwritten 'holy secret' that
                was added to the mixture. It was a specific cult item, one of the
                flowers that Persephone had been gathering in the field before her
                abduction, and well known for millennia as a plant that could ease pain
                and help one to sleep and dream. There is no hard and fast evidence I
                know of this, so it is speculation on my part that the totemic flower of
                the Goddess would possibly be used in Her holy communion beverage.

                Well, back to coffee for me today!
                Have fun,
                Demetria




                --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Kimetha Loidolt <kloidolt@...> wrote:
                >
                > Actually a version of this made with whey, honey, and herbs is
                mentioned in many of the writings of physicians of the period.
                >
                > Hipprocates is quoted as writing "...when Adrianus, the son of Ceneus,
                had a pain all around the belly,...prescribed goats whey, boiled..",
                Galen of Pergamon a 2nd century Physician drew on Hipprocates writings
                he wrote "...Simple whey is particularly proper for tender
                patients...whey is also safely exhibited to children, women, and old
                persons, even during the heat of a fever..."
                >
                > Is it possible that whey was the liquid used to make the drink?
                >
                > Kimetha Loidolt
                > kloidolt@...<mailto:kloidolt@...
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of Warriior Chef
                > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:12 PM
                > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon
                >
                >
                >
                > Buttermilk works well enough as an idea...
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: sallygrain@...<mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com>
                > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:55 AM
                > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon
                >
                > It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was
                curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name.
                Diluting it makes sence too
                >
                > sally
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: Justin Mansfield iustinus@...<mailto:iustinus%40gmail.com>>
                > To: Apicius Apicius@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>>
                > Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:29
                > Subject: [Apicius] Kykeon
                >
                > Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it,
                Latinly,
                > cyceon):
                >
                > http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html
                >
                > Well done.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >



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