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Kykeon

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  • viv353
    Good morning from Athens :-)) I have been following your discussions for quite a long time , but I hesitated so far to post something. I am very much
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 8, 2002
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      Good morning from Athens :-))

      I have been following your discussions for quite a long time , but I
      hesitated so far to post something.

      I am very much interested in "Kykeon".

      I have read what Sally Grainger and Andrew Dalby have written in
      their book, but last night in another discussion group, someone sent
      a message connecting Kykeon with the Eleusinean Mysteries.
      He said that Kykeon had an hallucinatory effect on those who were
      drinking it and it was an important part of the cult of Eleusinean
      Mysteres.The ingredient that causes this hallucinatory effect, is
      still a matter of investigation.

      Do you have any idea on that or can you suggest me any sources for me
      to check?

      Thank you in advance

      Vivian Efthymiopoulos
    • viv353
      Good morning from Athens :-)) I have been following your discussions for quite a long time , but I hesitated so far to post something. I am very much
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 8, 2002
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        Good morning from Athens :-))

        I have been following your discussions for quite a long time , but I
        hesitated so far to post something.

        I am very much interested in "Kykeon".

        I have read what Sally Grainger and Andrew Dalby have written in
        their book, but last night in another discussion group, someone sent
        a message connecting Kykeon with the Eleusinean Mysteries.
        He said that Kykeon had an hallucinatory effect on those who were
        drinking it and it was an important part of the cult of Eleusinean
        Mysteres.The ingredient that causes this hallucinatory effect, is
        still a matter of investigation.

        Do you have any idea on that or can you suggest me any sources for me
        to check?

        Thank you in advance

        Vivian Efthymiopoulos
      • Justin Mansfield
        Here s a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly, cyceon): http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html Well done.
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 23, 2012
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          Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly,
          cyceon):

          http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html

          Well done.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sallygrain@aol.com
          It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name. Diluting it makes
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 23, 2012
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            It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name. Diluting it makes sence too

            sally


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
            To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:29
            Subject: [Apicius] Kykeon





            Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly,
            cyceon):

            http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html

            Well done.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Warriior Chef
            Buttermilk works well enough as an idea... ... From: sallygrain@aol.com To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:55 AM Subject: Re:
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 23, 2012
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              Buttermilk works well enough as an idea...

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: sallygrain@...
              To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:55 AM
              Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon




              It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name. Diluting it makes sence too

              sally

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
              To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:29
              Subject: [Apicius] Kykeon

              Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly,
              cyceon):

              http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html

              Well done.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Kimetha Loidolt
              Actually a version of this made with whey, honey, and herbs is mentioned in many of the writings of physicians of the period. Hipprocates is quoted as writing
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 23, 2012
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                Actually a version of this made with whey, honey, and herbs is mentioned in many of the writings of physicians of the period.

                Hipprocates is quoted as writing "...when Adrianus, the son of Ceneus, had a pain all around the belly,...prescribed goats whey, boiled..", Galen of Pergamon a 2nd century Physician drew on Hipprocates writings he wrote "...Simple whey is particularly proper for tender patients...whey is also safely exhibited to children, women, and old persons, even during the heat of a fever..."

                Is it possible that whey was the liquid used to make the drink?

                Kimetha Loidolt
                kloidolt@...<mailto:kloidolt@...>


                ________________________________
                From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Warriior Chef
                Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:12 PM
                To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon



                Buttermilk works well enough as an idea...

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: sallygrain@...<mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com>
                To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:55 AM
                Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon

                It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name. Diluting it makes sence too

                sally

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...<mailto:iustinus%40gmail.com>>
                To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>>
                Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:29
                Subject: [Apicius] Kykeon

                Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it, Latinly,
                cyceon):

                http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html

                Well done.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Phoenix
                Whey is not the same as barley water that has been left to ferment overnight or for a few days - the effect and flavor are not the same. Whey is mild (though
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 17, 2012
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                  Whey is not the same as barley water that has been left to ferment
                  overnight or for a few days - the effect and flavor are not the same.
                  Whey is mild (though the scent may not be that mild for goat whey) and
                  perhaps an easier to digest liquid than whole milk for those who are
                  sick. There are a couple of recipes for using it on the Wikipedia page
                  ("Wine whey" and "Cream of Tartar whey"):
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey

                  Here is a link to yummy recipe for palak paneer, which uses whey along
                  with the homemade cheese, paneer.
                  http://www.toomanychefs.com/archives/001367.php

                  There is a chapter about Kykeon in Karl Kerenyi's Eleusis:Archetypal
                  Image of Mother and Daughter. He wrote:

                  "Ovid's addition to the Homeric recipe is contained in the word tosta.
                  Tosta polenta means roasted barley groats. Obviously this addition
                  springs from a Greek source, for among Greeks barley was roasted before
                  being crushed into groats: Graeci perfusum aqua hordeum siccant nocte
                  una ac postero frigunt, deinde molis frangunt. (The Greeks dry for one
                  night the barley that has been soaked in water; afterward they roast it,
                  and then they crush ity between two stones.") [footnote 5] In
                  accordance with a law of Solon, the phrugetron, the vessel for roasting
                  barley, was carried by the bride in the nuptial procession as a symbol
                  of the housewife's duties (Pollux I 246). Roasted barley in water
                  produces malt and a drink which may taste sweet without the addition of
                  any sweetening whatever and become alcoholic after short fermentation.
                  [footnote 6] The Goddess had no need to wait for fermentation before
                  her kykeon became alcoholic. We have testimony to the effect that the
                  kykeon was - illicitly - drunk in Athens on the day before the
                  procession to Eleusis (see p. 62), and we also know the form of the
                  characteristic vessels in which the beverage was carried in the
                  procession. [footnote 7] It can be inferred from Arnobius' word ebibi
                  ("I drank out," "I drank the whole potion") that a definite dose had to
                  be taken. The dose in that case would have been the exact quantity
                  contained in the small pots carried in the hands of the men in the
                  procession. " (pp.178-179)

                  Kerenyi then references personal correspondence from Albert Hoffman
                  regarding the phenomenon of visions and or hallucinations that can come
                  from fasting alone, as well as in combination with even mild doses of
                  alcohol or other entheogens.

                  Pennyroyal (mentha pulegium) has a pleasant minty scent and taste, but
                  in large quantities it can produce mild euphoria - it is also used as an
                  emmenagogue to make the menses flow when there is pain, cramping, or a
                  pregnancy to be terminated, if one knows their herbal medicine well
                  enough. The article mentions this in the recipe for 'the red flux'.

                  When our Chicago Earthstar group was up & running in the '80s, we made
                  Demeter's kykeon, covering it with cloth and letting it ferment
                  overnight, and another batch sat for three days. It was a mild and
                  pleasant buzz, undoubtedly with more powerful effect if one has done a
                  complete fast for a day or more beforehand. This was done without
                  mixing it with wine, of course, since it is the Goddess' drink.

                  Regarding curdling, there is no mention of whey or milk for the sacred
                  kykeon recipe, but since the word means 'stirred, mixed drink', why
                  would curds for the medicinal or relaxing dairy mixture be unpleasant?
                  It is not as thoroughly blended as a modern milkshake, but it is along
                  those lines, texture wise, if one is a good stirrer. A previous post
                  mentions buttermilk, a great example of a thick drink. How about eggnog
                  as a mildly thickened beverage? Kefir is a thick curdled drink, a sort
                  of yogurt-like beverage, and it is a popular enough item to be in
                  mainstream grocery stores. There are Japanese soda pop's that come with
                  tapioca pearls in them. The kykeon we made was thinner than kefir, not
                  quite as thin as the Japanese pop or gruel-like but a slightly thickened
                  drink with a mild 'kick'.

                  Another thing to be aware of regarding visions and ritual intoxication
                  with kykeon is that the poppy is the flower of Demeter (and associated
                  with Hypnos, Thanatos, Asklepios, Nyx, Aphrodite, Adonis). The poppy
                  grew wild in ancient wheat fields, and it was also cultivated in
                  rotation with grains to give the fields 'rest' before planting grain on
                  them again. The poppy juice could be an unwritten 'holy secret' that
                  was added to the mixture. It was a specific cult item, one of the
                  flowers that Persephone had been gathering in the field before her
                  abduction, and well known for millennia as a plant that could ease pain
                  and help one to sleep and dream. There is no hard and fast evidence I
                  know of this, so it is speculation on my part that the totemic flower of
                  the Goddess would possibly be used in Her holy communion beverage.

                  Well, back to coffee for me today!
                  Have fun,
                  Demetria




                  --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, Kimetha Loidolt <kloidolt@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Actually a version of this made with whey, honey, and herbs is
                  mentioned in many of the writings of physicians of the period.
                  >
                  > Hipprocates is quoted as writing "...when Adrianus, the son of Ceneus,
                  had a pain all around the belly,...prescribed goats whey, boiled..",
                  Galen of Pergamon a 2nd century Physician drew on Hipprocates writings
                  he wrote "...Simple whey is particularly proper for tender
                  patients...whey is also safely exhibited to children, women, and old
                  persons, even during the heat of a fever..."
                  >
                  > Is it possible that whey was the liquid used to make the drink?
                  >
                  > Kimetha Loidolt
                  > kloidolt@...<mailto:kloidolt@...
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Warriior Chef
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 12:12 PM
                  > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Buttermilk works well enough as an idea...
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: sallygrain@...<mailto:sallygrain%40aol.com>
                  > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2012 8:55 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Kykeon
                  >
                  > It was well done. It is hard to deal with the idea of a drink that was
                  curdled - as Andrew translates the verb associated with the name.
                  Diluting it makes sence too
                  >
                  > sally
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Justin Mansfield iustinus@...<mailto:iustinus%40gmail.com>>
                  > To: Apicius Apicius@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Apicius%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  > Sent: Tue, 23 Oct 2012 16:29
                  > Subject: [Apicius] Kykeon
                  >
                  > Here's a nice blog entry on kykeon (or as I prefer to spell it,
                  Latinly,
                  > cyceon):
                  >
                  > http://www.historyofgreekfood.org/2012/10/mixing-kykeon.html
                  >
                  > Well done.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >



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