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garum

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  • vayaki
    ... Well, garon is not in my Liddel and Scott dictionary of ancient greek. Now if the word is really karon , which again is not in the above deictionary,
    Message 1 of 17 , Feb 22, 1999
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      > From: Karen Klaiber <klaiber@...>
      >Subject: Re: garum/liquamen
      >
      >
      >Dear Susan:
      > I hope I am replying "the right way;" I've never written to a list.
      >
      > I think I have the short answer to one of your "garum" questions.
      >My Latin dictionary says that garum is the Latin transliteration of an
      >ancient Greek word, "garon."
      Well, "garon" is not in my Liddel and Scott dictionary of ancient greek.
      Now if the word is really "karon", which again is not in the above
      deictionary,
      there is though, karis, which means shrimp, prawn. In modern greek it has
      become garis, so it is possible that in some ancient dialect it was
      garis also. Then garon would be "that which is/comes from " garis",
      shrimp.
      No such vestige condiment exists in modern greek cooking, that I know of.
      Anna
    • Carol Dery
      The ancient Greeks used a fish sauce called garos (not garon - this is the accusative case which is why it is not in the dictionary) from about the fifth
      Message 2 of 17 , Feb 22, 1999
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        The ancient Greeks used a fish sauce called garos (not garon - this is the
        accusative case which is why it is not in the dictionary) from about the
        fifth century BC, and it is this that the Romans took over. Garum (Lat.)
        derives from garos (Gk. actually a type of fish). The Romans used the
        various types of fish sauce very much more than the Greeks ever did however,
        which is why not many people know about the Greek version.

        As regards the various terminology for Roman fish sauces, it goes like this:
        Garum is the name for the best quality fish sauce (garum sociorum is the
        very best of all - It was made in Spain from mackerel), but it is also used
        generically in the early empire.

        Liquamen was originally an inferior product to garum, but by the time of the
        late Empire (when Apicius' cookbook was being compiled), liquamen had
        largely replaced garum as a generic term for fish sauce.

        There is also something called muria, which is the pickle that salt fish was
        transported in. It could also be used to pickle other things as well.

        Then there is allec, which is a fish paste. The other three are all liquids.

        Carol
      • Karen Klaiber
        I m no Greek scholar... I must have said the wrong thing, suggesting the word garum was originally Greek. But as I have been able to gather, the sauce indeed
        Message 3 of 17 , Feb 22, 1999
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          I'm no Greek scholar...
          I must have said the wrong thing, suggesting the word garum was
          originally Greek. But as I have been able to gather, the sauce indeed was
          called garon in Greek, it is a neuter nominative.
          So, I don't understand... The Romans named the sauce for a Greek
          fish? Please instruct!
          I will ask some Hellenists around here what they think, too.

          Thanks all for your interesting words.

          Karen
        • Sallygrain@xxx.xxx
          Hi all My web site has been under construction for so long its embarrassing. I do not know how to construct such things and rely on a friend to post my words
          Message 4 of 17 , May 13, 1999
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            Hi all

            My web site has been under construction for so long its embarrassing. I do
            not know how to construct such things and rely on a friend to post my words
            up.

            He has just posted my paper on Garum onto my site which will shortly be
            published in a Latin/ Classics teachers journal. I would welcome any
            comments on this.

            There are still areas of the site waiting for material so I appologise in
            advance for the blank spaces.

            http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/8337

            Sally
          • Catiline
            My only complaint (and it s a petty and pedantic one) is that there are no citations. You mention Pliny and Martial, but don t say where to find the original
            Message 5 of 17 , May 13, 1999
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              My only complaint (and it's a petty and pedantic one) is that there are
              no citations. You mention Pliny and Martial, but don't say where to
              find the original texts. It would be helpful for stuffy people like me
              if you would add that.

              Aside from that trivial snivelling on my part, it looks like a well
              written piece with plenty of information. Thanks for producing that for
              us, and best wishes on your pages.
            • sallygrain@aol.com
              Hi all I had a theory about garum/liquamen as follows: The greeks invented garos as a way of using all the small fish otherwise thrown back. Other forms of
              Message 6 of 17 , Feb 12, 2001
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                Hi all

                I had a theory about garum/liquamen as follows:

                The greeks invented garos as a way of using all the small fish otherwise
                thrown back. Other forms of fish were tried and the addition of blood and
                visera improved the taste. It became the way salt was added to most of their
                cuisine. It was called garos regradless of the fish used and it was not
                particularly graded The Romans took over this cuisine lock stock etc. and
                consequently the fish sauce and its name. The culinary elite at Rome sought
                to distinguish high grade fish sauce which was made from a guarranteed type
                of fish and the bog standard 'liquor' used by everyone. (In Latin liquor has
                the sence of melting, disolving as well as liquid)
                This in starck contrast to the opinion of Mark Grant who thinks the ordinary
                peasant didnt us it. It was graded as was the society that used it. Hence
                we have Garum - the finest with mackerel flesh and blood, Muria - tuna blood
                and discarded flesh and liquamen - everything at the bottom of the net
                including shell fish sea weed etc. ( the cosher product implies that some of
                the fish sauces made did have 'everything' in it. This latter name was never
                mentioned by the Roman because it was a term only used by those that bought
                it, while it was the elite who had the time to write and record the other two
                names.

                This grading eventually died out along with the first two names, leaving
                liquamen as the standard term in the 4th-5th centuries AD when Apicius was
                first compiled in the form we have it. Why? I couldnt tell you but it may
                be that the elite stopped using it so much.

                sally
              • RM
                Salvete! I just travelled a bit around in my TLG CD-ROM and found that garum has been mentioned by a lot of late Greek authors (Plutarchos - 1st c., Athenaios
                Message 7 of 17 , Feb 12, 2001
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                  Salvete!

                  I just travelled a bit around in my TLG CD-ROM and found that garum
                  has been mentioned by a lot of late Greek authors (Plutarchos - 1st c.,
                  Athenaios - 3rd c., Galenos - 2nd c., Oreibasios Med. - 4th c., Aetios
                  Med. - 6th c., Theodoretos - 5th c.). And then we find it - as most of
                  you know - in the Geoponika (10th c.).

                  On the other hand, also in Latin the word 'garum' was used for a long
                  time as we can see from Martialis, Q. Serenus, the Historia Augusta, and
                  Iustinianus. As I sad before, Apicius was the only Roman author who used
                  the word 'liquamen' instead of 'garum' (besides one occurrence in the
                  Historia Augusta). 'Liquamen' was probabely part of some jargon culinaire,
                  since the original de re coquinaria wasn't certainly written for hobby
                  cooks.

                  So it is quite clear that the word 'garon' survived at least in the eastern
                  parts
                  of the Roman empire up to the 10th century. On the other hand it is very
                  difficult to find any kind of culinary literature written in Latin after the
                  final
                  (or last) version of Apicius was published. Well, at least one author
                  mentioned 'liquamen' and this was Anthimus (De observatione ciborum,
                  6th c.) - probabely he was inspired by the text of Apicius. I was surprised
                  to find the Latin text online at:
                  http://www.accademia.home.it/bibvirt/anthimi.html
                  He mentioned it once, just to say: 'Nam liquamen ex omni parte prohibimus.'

                  Sincerely,

                  RM


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: <sallygrain@...>
                  To: <apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 1:40 PM
                  Subject: [Apicius] garum


                  > Hi all
                  >
                  > I had a theory about garum/liquamen as follows:
                  >
                  > The greeks invented garos as a way of using all the small fish otherwise
                  > thrown back. Other forms of fish were tried and the addition of blood and
                  > visera improved the taste. It became the way salt was added to most of
                  their
                  > cuisine. It was called garos regradless of the fish used and it was not
                  > particularly graded The Romans took over this cuisine lock stock etc. and
                  > consequently the fish sauce and its name. The culinary elite at Rome
                  sought
                  > to distinguish high grade fish sauce which was made from a guarranteed
                  type
                  > of fish and the bog standard 'liquor' used by everyone. (In Latin liquor
                  has
                  > the sence of melting, disolving as well as liquid)
                  > This in starck contrast to the opinion of Mark Grant who thinks the
                  ordinary
                  > peasant didnt us it. It was graded as was the society that used it.
                  Hence
                  > we have Garum - the finest with mackerel flesh and blood, Muria - tuna
                  blood
                  > and discarded flesh and liquamen - everything at the bottom of the net
                  > including shell fish sea weed etc. ( the cosher product implies that some
                  of
                  > the fish sauces made did have 'everything' in it. This latter name was
                  never
                  > mentioned by the Roman because it was a term only used by those that
                  bought
                  > it, while it was the elite who had the time to write and record the other
                  two
                  > names.
                  >
                  > This grading eventually died out along with the first two names, leaving
                  > liquamen as the standard term in the 4th-5th centuries AD when Apicius
                  was
                  > first compiled in the form we have it. Why? I couldnt tell you but it
                  may
                  > be that the elite stopped using it so much.
                  >
                  > sally
                  >
                  >
                  > Post message: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
                  > Unsubscribe: Apicius-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > List owner: Apicius-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                • sallygrain@aol.com
                  Hi all Thankyou for the translation Iustinus. It is facinating and even more pertinant. Garum was seen as a Greek term which it was of cause and muria was
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 10, 2001
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                    Hi all

                    Thankyou for the translation Iustinus. It is facinating and even more
                    pertinant. Garum was seen as a Greek term which it was of cause and muria
                    was the common term so there was a need to find a term which was truly Latin.
                    It does give a hint as to the motive behind the use of liquamen.

                    sally
                  • jdm314@aol.com
                    In a message dated 4/10/01 6:44:51 AM, you wrote:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 11, 2001
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                      In a message dated 4/10/01 6:44:51 AM, you wrote:

                      <<Thankyou for the translation Iustinus. It is facinating and even more
                      pertinant. Garum was seen as a Greek term which it was of cause and muria
                      was the common term so there was a need to find a term which was truly Latin.
                      It does give a hint as to the motive behind the use of liquamen.
                      >>

                      Another interesting point is that iste, as in "liquor iste sociorum" (which I
                      translated loosely as 'that one liquid of the allies') almost always has a
                      negative connotation... so that liquor iste might almost mean something like
                      "that nasty liquid."
                      I also kind of wonder to what extent he's distinguishing muria and garum
                      in that quote. Is he saying that he only calls it muria because there is no
                      Latin word specifically for high-quality fish sauce?

                      -JDM
                    • sallygrain@aol.com
                      Hi all The blood garum is ready !? I have pictures of it in production tho dont know how to put them on the system so everyone can see them. Will someone
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 31, 2005
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                        Hi all


                        The blood garum is ready !? I have pictures of it in production tho dont
                        know how to put them on the system so everyone can see them. Will someone
                        volunterre to take delivary and upload them for me? Can i send them to you
                        Andrew? I will anyway so you have them on file.

                        As to book who knows my publisher is silent on the subject but with luck soon

                        Sally


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • sallygrain@aol.com
                        Hi all For those who missed the beginning I took the blood and intestines of 100 mackerel caught within 2 hours of reciept and mixed it with salt 7-1 by weight
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 31, 2005
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                          Hi all

                          For those who missed the beginning I took the blood and intestines of 100
                          mackerel caught within 2 hours of reciept and mixed it with salt 7-1 by weight
                          plus a few oz extra for good measure. It was first left in the green house
                          through most of sept . The temp reached 90 during the day but got cold at
                          night. After the day temp got too cold we brought it in and left it under the
                          stairs for a total of 4 months. 65 F roughly at all times. I stired it 2-3
                          times during the first month No disernable smell unless stired or agitated.
                          This was so all through the process. First strange thig was as you will see
                          the mixture seperated out upside down by normal Fish sauce standards ie the
                          Geoponica suggest that a basket is pl;aced over the vessel in whole fish
                          sauce production and the liquor flows in. With this the grey gloop rose to the
                          surface and the brown liquor remained at the bottom. The smell was an all
                          pervasive blood smell almost meaty as if you were surounded by raw liver.

                          Now its clear and ready for use it still smells very bloody and very
                          distinct from the fish sauce smell. This is maybe how blood garum is distinguished
                          from fish garum. Any experinced cook /purchaser would know the difference,
                          its so obvious to the nose. I cannot taste it yet as I need to be sure its
                          safe. I left the lid loose on the vessel but there still could be anairobic
                          bacteria such as botulismm around etc so I will get it tested at a lab. As
                          soon as I can I will make up some Apician recipes and some sauces from Horace
                          Satires - particularly 2.4 and 2.8 and taste the results???!!!

                          all best

                          Sally


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Armand MarĂ©chal
                          Sally, try http://imageshack.us You can upload directly from your harddisc and post a link to each picture here on the list. Armand
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 31, 2005
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                            Sally,

                            try http://imageshack.us

                            You can upload directly from your harddisc and post a link to each picture
                            here on the list.

                            Armand


                            > The blood garum is ready !? I have pictures of it in production tho dont
                            > know how to put them on the system so everyone can see them.
                          • Correus
                            Mmmmm...sounds TASTEY!!!! LOL Larry ... __________________________________ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
                            Message 13 of 17 , Jan 1, 2006
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                              Mmmmm...sounds TASTEY!!!! LOL

                              Larry

                              --- sallygrain@... wrote:

                              > Hi all
                              >
                              > For those who missed the beginning I took the
                              > blood and intestines of 100
                              > mackerel caught within 2 hours of reciept and
                              > mixed it with salt 7-1 by weight
                              > plus a few oz extra for good measure. It was
                              > first left in the green house
                              > through most of sept . The temp reached 90
                              > during the day but got cold at
                              > night. After the day temp got too cold we
                              > brought it in and left it under the
                              > stairs for a total of 4 months. 65 F roughly
                              > at all times. I stired it 2-3
                              > times during the first month No disernable
                              > smell unless stired or agitated.
                              > This was so all through the process. First
                              > strange thig was as you will see
                              > the mixture seperated out upside down by
                              > normal Fish sauce standards ie the
                              > Geoponica suggest that a basket is pl;aced
                              > over the vessel in whole fish
                              > sauce production and the liquor flows in. With
                              > this the grey gloop rose to the
                              > surface and the brown liquor remained at the
                              > bottom. The smell was an all
                              > pervasive blood smell almost meaty as if you
                              > were surounded by raw liver.
                              >
                              > Now its clear and ready for use it still smells
                              > very bloody and very
                              > distinct from the fish sauce smell. This is
                              > maybe how blood garum is distinguished
                              > from fish garum. Any experinced cook
                              > /purchaser would know the difference,
                              > its so obvious to the nose. I cannot taste it
                              > yet as I need to be sure its
                              > safe. I left the lid loose on the vessel but
                              > there still could be anairobic
                              > bacteria such as botulismm around etc so I
                              > will get it tested at a lab. As
                              > soon as I can I will make up some Apician
                              > recipes and some sauces from Horace
                              > Satires - particularly 2.4 and 2.8 and taste
                              > the results???!!!
                              >
                              > all best
                              >
                              > Sally
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              > removed]
                              >
                              >





                              __________________________________
                              Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
                              http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
                            • sallygrain@aol.com
                              hi may I make the suggestion that it is not microorganisms so much as enzymes that digest the fish flesh and therefore the suggestion to encourage them such as
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 6, 2011
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                                hi

                                may I make the suggestion that it is not microorganisms so much as enzymes that digest the fish flesh and therefore the suggestion to encourage them such as lacto bacillus etc which are salt loving, actually spoils the sauce in large numbers. They cause the protein to degrade into ammonia, as I have already discovered through experiments conducted with the help of the foods biosciences at Reading Uni.

                                It is the enzymes in the viscera - particularly liver, spleen,rather than the intestines themselves that act on the muscle tissue, dissolving it from solid to liquid protein. Fish sauce requires fish muscle tissue to become both nutritious and tasty. Fish sauce made just from viscera is not much use as there is no muscle tissue for the enzymes to act on and the viscera is not nutritionally rich . The luxury product garum was made using blood which had to be harvested along with the viscera. This provides the liquid protein in garum when it is the blood sauce, considered black and blood by Galen.

                                The ordinary fish sauce was made from small and medium sized fish (It resembles nuc nam and is pale to dark brown). So I would dispute the idea that the best fish sauce is made from little fish. It is fairly certain that mackerel and other valued fish made the best fish sauces. The small varieties of fish sardine, anchovy, herring sprat, many other Med varieties little known by their common name, made the bulk variety in Spain and was sold all over the empire from Hadrian's wall to Palestine. This idea that small = best comes from a long mis-read piece of Pliny where he talks of an allec - the residue from fish sauce being made from tiny fish, so small they are virtually bone free ( this corresponds to pissolate a fish paste still made in Nice and Marseilles - look it up ) and he goes on to describe the beginning of an interest in allec by the elite. At this point allec began to be made from sea food such as oysters, sea urchins etc which because of the absence of bone was valued at table. The tiny-fish sauce (from the context of fish bone evidence) was a local and small scale product and as such the cheapest and least valued!.

                                So in re your question the whole fish is necessary to make the kind of fish sauce you want to cook Apician food. If they are all small c.under 10 cm add a little extra viscera to speed up the dissolving process other wise cut them all open and allow the viscera to flow and the dissolving process will be much speedier. Also either add just sufficient extra brine to allow all the fish to dissolve or if you are making the sauce in a sealed vessel, re brine the semi dissolved residue for a month or so and 2-3 times at least and blend all the yield of sauce for use. The residue after the first liquor is taken is far more valuable as a fish sauce concentrate then as a residue for discard or slave food.

                                My experiments will hopefully be published at some time and you can see how I reach these conclusions

                                Sally Grainger






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Donna
                                Thanks for your response and the other folks who chimed in. My plan was to use the frozen sardine heads and guts as an addition to fresh whole fish for this
                                Message 15 of 17 , Aug 6, 2011
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                                  Thanks for your response and the other folks who chimed in. My plan was to use the frozen sardine heads and guts as an addition to fresh whole fish for this eventual batch of garum. It is more a question of can I use the bi-product (heads & guts) of something else I make frequently in small batches (cured sardines) as an added ingredient in garum made from scratch.

                                  So, from Sally's answer my question seems to be will freezing de-activate the useful enzymes? Or will the addition of frozen heads and guts have a negative effect on the useful enzymes in the fresh fish? Would the addition of sardine heads and guts lower the quality of a mackerel based garum?

                                  Separate question, are saba and defructum essentially the same ingredient? Can they be used interchangably?

                                  Thanks,

                                  Donna

                                  --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > hi
                                  >
                                  > may I make the suggestion that it is not microorganisms so much as enzymes that digest the fish flesh and therefore the suggestion to encourage them such as lacto bacillus etc which are salt loving, actually spoils the sauce in large numbers. They cause the protein to degrade into ammonia, as I have already discovered through experiments conducted with the help of the foods biosciences at Reading Uni.
                                  >
                                  > It is the enzymes in the viscera - particularly liver, spleen,rather than the intestines themselves that act on the muscle tissue, dissolving it from solid to liquid protein. Fish sauce requires fish muscle tissue to become both nutritious and tasty. Fish sauce made just from viscera is not much use as there is no muscle tissue for the enzymes to act on and the viscera is not nutritionally rich . The luxury product garum was made using blood which had to be harvested along with the viscera. This provides the liquid protein in garum when it is the blood sauce, considered black and blood by Galen.
                                  >
                                  > The ordinary fish sauce was made from small and medium sized fish (It resembles nuc nam and is pale to dark brown). So I would dispute the idea that the best fish sauce is made from little fish. It is fairly certain that mackerel and other valued fish made the best fish sauces. The small varieties of fish sardine, anchovy, herring sprat, many other Med varieties little known by their common name, made the bulk variety in Spain and was sold all over the empire from Hadrian's wall to Palestine. This idea that small = best comes from a long mis-read piece of Pliny where he talks of an allec - the residue from fish sauce being made from tiny fish, so small they are virtually bone free ( this corresponds to pissolate a fish paste still made in Nice and Marseilles - look it up ) and he goes on to describe the beginning of an interest in allec by the elite. At this point allec began to be made from sea food such as oysters, sea urchins etc which because of the absence of bone was valued at table. The tiny-fish sauce (from the context of fish bone evidence) was a local and small scale product and as such the cheapest and least valued!.
                                  >
                                  > So in re your question the whole fish is necessary to make the kind of fish sauce you want to cook Apician food. If they are all small c.under 10 cm add a little extra viscera to speed up the dissolving process other wise cut them all open and allow the viscera to flow and the dissolving process will be much speedier. Also either add just sufficient extra brine to allow all the fish to dissolve or if you are making the sauce in a sealed vessel, re brine the semi dissolved residue for a month or so and 2-3 times at least and blend all the yield of sauce for use. The residue after the first liquor is taken is far more valuable as a fish sauce concentrate then as a residue for discard or slave food.
                                  >
                                  > My experiments will hopefully be published at some time and you can see how I reach these conclusions
                                  >
                                  > Sally Grainger
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • sallygrain@aol.com
                                  Hi Well I dont know to be honest ... The enzymes are very sensative to environmental conditions thats for sure so maybe freezing them wont help but it will
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Aug 7, 2011
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                                    Hi Well I dont know to be honest ... The enzymes are very sensative to environmental conditions thats for sure so maybe freezing them wont help but it will only be a negative effect in terms of time. Weeker or slower enzymes simply reduces the time to full liquefaction. I used 10% extra viscera by weight in a batch and the dissolving process was greatly speeded up. The viscera dont add much in terms of quality so you only need to add enough to cause the fish to open up and expose the viscera of each small fish. Note the longer it takes for each fish to burst open the more likely that Botulism may develope- only may as there are so many other factors like lacto bacillus producing acid which prevents the bacteria growing. To be sure always cut open anything over 10 cm

                                    re heads the fish bone evidence does ssometimes have a disproportionate number of heads to vertebrae so extra may have been put in.
                                    The quality of mackerel fish sauce is I think defined by the degree to which the muscle tissue has dissolved and the length of time the sauce is held as an emulsion before filtering. I had sauces tested for protein at the point they were removed and filtered and after a month left unfiltered and the incrrease in protein was 150%+

                                    I think saba is boiled thick grape jiuice without added fruit, defrutum with the addition of figs, quince as well as other spices. (Columella 12.20.2) spices sweet rush iris fenugreek

                                    sally






                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Donna <donnaegreen@...>
                                    To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:01
                                    Subject: [Apicius] Re: garum




                                    Thanks for your response and the other folks who chimed in. My plan was to use the frozen sardine heads and guts as an addition to fresh whole fish for this eventual batch of garum. It is more a question of can I use the bi-product (heads & guts) of something else I make frequently in small batches (cured sardines) as an added ingredient in garum made from scratch.

                                    So, from Sally's answer my question seems to be will freezing de-activate the useful enzymes? Or will the addition of frozen heads and guts have a negative effect on the useful enzymes in the fresh fish? Would the addition of sardine heads and guts lower the quality of a mackerel based garum?

                                    Separate question, are saba and defructum essentially the same ingredient? Can they be used interchangably?

                                    Thanks,

                                    Donna

                                    --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > hi
                                    >
                                    > may I make the suggestion that it is not microorganisms so much as enzymes that digest the fish flesh and therefore the suggestion to encourage them such as lacto bacillus etc which are salt loving, actually spoils the sauce in large numbers. They cause the protein to degrade into ammonia, as I have already discovered through experiments conducted with the help of the foods biosciences at Reading Uni.
                                    >
                                    > It is the enzymes in the viscera - particularly liver, spleen,rather than the intestines themselves that act on the muscle tissue, dissolving it from solid to liquid protein. Fish sauce requires fish muscle tissue to become both nutritious and tasty. Fish sauce made just from viscera is not much use as there is no muscle tissue for the enzymes to act on and the viscera is not nutritionally rich . The luxury product garum was made using blood which had to be harvested along with the viscera. This provides the liquid protein in garum when it is the blood sauce, considered black and blood by Galen.
                                    >
                                    > The ordinary fish sauce was made from small and medium sized fish (It resembles nuc nam and is pale to dark brown). So I would dispute the idea that the best fish sauce is made from little fish. It is fairly certain that mackerel and other valued fish made the best fish sauces. The small varieties of fish sardine, anchovy, herring sprat, many other Med varieties little known by their common name, made the bulk variety in Spain and was sold all over the empire from Hadrian's wall to Palestine. This idea that small = best comes from a long mis-read piece of Pliny where he talks of an allec - the residue from fish sauce being made from tiny fish, so small they are virtually bone free ( this corresponds to pissolate a fish paste still made in Nice and Marseilles - look it up ) and he goes on to describe the beginning of an interest in allec by the elite. At this point allec began to be made from sea food such as oysters, sea urchins etc which because of the absence of bone was valued at table. The tiny-fish sauce (from the context of fish bone evidence) was a local and small scale product and as such the cheapest and least valued!.
                                    >
                                    > So in re your question the whole fish is necessary to make the kind of fish sauce you want to cook Apician food. If they are all small c.under 10 cm add a little extra viscera to speed up the dissolving process other wise cut them all open and allow the viscera to flow and the dissolving process will be much speedier. Also either add just sufficient extra brine to allow all the fish to dissolve or if you are making the sauce in a sealed vessel, re brine the semi dissolved residue for a month or so and 2-3 times at least and blend all the yield of sauce for use. The residue after the first liquor is taken is far more valuable as a fish sauce concentrate then as a residue for discard or slave food.
                                    >
                                    > My experiments will hopefully be published at some time and you can see how I reach these conclusions
                                    >
                                    > Sally Grainger
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >







                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Donna
                                    Thanks
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Aug 8, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Thanks

                                      --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Well I dont know to be honest ... The enzymes are very sensative to environmental conditions thats for sure so maybe freezing them wont help but it will only be a negative effect in terms of time. Weeker or slower enzymes simply reduces the time to full liquefaction. I used 10% extra viscera by weight in a batch and the dissolving process was greatly speeded up. The viscera dont add much in terms of quality so you only need to add enough to cause the fish to open up and expose the viscera of each small fish. Note the longer it takes for each fish to burst open the more likely that Botulism may develope- only may as there are so many other factors like lacto bacillus producing acid which prevents the bacteria growing. To be sure always cut open anything over 10 cm
                                      >
                                      > re heads the fish bone evidence does ssometimes have a disproportionate number of heads to vertebrae so extra may have been put in.
                                      > The quality of mackerel fish sauce is I think defined by the degree to which the muscle tissue has dissolved and the length of time the sauce is held as an emulsion before filtering. I had sauces tested for protein at the point they were removed and filtered and after a month left unfiltered and the incrrease in protein was 150%+
                                      >
                                      > I think saba is boiled thick grape jiuice without added fruit, defrutum with the addition of figs, quince as well as other spices. (Columella 12.20.2) spices sweet rush iris fenugreek
                                      >
                                      > sally
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Donna <donnaegreen@...>
                                      > To: Apicius <Apicius@yahoogroups.com>
                                      > Sent: Sat, 6 Aug 2011 23:01
                                      > Subject: [Apicius] Re: garum
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for your response and the other folks who chimed in. My plan was to use the frozen sardine heads and guts as an addition to fresh whole fish for this eventual batch of garum. It is more a question of can I use the bi-product (heads & guts) of something else I make frequently in small batches (cured sardines) as an added ingredient in garum made from scratch.
                                      >
                                      > So, from Sally's answer my question seems to be will freezing de-activate the useful enzymes? Or will the addition of frozen heads and guts have a negative effect on the useful enzymes in the fresh fish? Would the addition of sardine heads and guts lower the quality of a mackerel based garum?
                                      >
                                      > Separate question, are saba and defructum essentially the same ingredient? Can they be used interchangably?
                                      >
                                      > Thanks,
                                      >
                                      > Donna
                                      >
                                      > --- In Apicius@yahoogroups.com, sallygrain@ wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > hi
                                      > >
                                      > > may I make the suggestion that it is not microorganisms so much as enzymes that digest the fish flesh and therefore the suggestion to encourage them such as lacto bacillus etc which are salt loving, actually spoils the sauce in large numbers. They cause the protein to degrade into ammonia, as I have already discovered through experiments conducted with the help of the foods biosciences at Reading Uni.
                                      > >
                                      > > It is the enzymes in the viscera - particularly liver, spleen,rather than the intestines themselves that act on the muscle tissue, dissolving it from solid to liquid protein. Fish sauce requires fish muscle tissue to become both nutritious and tasty. Fish sauce made just from viscera is not much use as there is no muscle tissue for the enzymes to act on and the viscera is not nutritionally rich . The luxury product garum was made using blood which had to be harvested along with the viscera. This provides the liquid protein in garum when it is the blood sauce, considered black and blood by Galen.
                                      > >
                                      > > The ordinary fish sauce was made from small and medium sized fish (It resembles nuc nam and is pale to dark brown). So I would dispute the idea that the best fish sauce is made from little fish. It is fairly certain that mackerel and other valued fish made the best fish sauces. The small varieties of fish sardine, anchovy, herring sprat, many other Med varieties little known by their common name, made the bulk variety in Spain and was sold all over the empire from Hadrian's wall to Palestine. This idea that small = best comes from a long mis-read piece of Pliny where he talks of an allec - the residue from fish sauce being made from tiny fish, so small they are virtually bone free ( this corresponds to pissolate a fish paste still made in Nice and Marseilles - look it up ) and he goes on to describe the beginning of an interest in allec by the elite. At this point allec began to be made from sea food such as oysters, sea urchins etc which because of the absence of bone was valued at table. The tiny-fish sauce (from the context of fish bone evidence) was a local and small scale product and as such the cheapest and least valued!.
                                      > >
                                      > > So in re your question the whole fish is necessary to make the kind of fish sauce you want to cook Apician food. If they are all small c.under 10 cm add a little extra viscera to speed up the dissolving process other wise cut them all open and allow the viscera to flow and the dissolving process will be much speedier. Also either add just sufficient extra brine to allow all the fish to dissolve or if you are making the sauce in a sealed vessel, re brine the semi dissolved residue for a month or so and 2-3 times at least and blend all the yield of sauce for use. The residue after the first liquor is taken is far more valuable as a fish sauce concentrate then as a residue for discard or slave food.
                                      > >
                                      > > My experiments will hopefully be published at some time and you can see how I reach these conclusions
                                      > >
                                      > > Sally Grainger
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
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