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5544Re: [Apicius] Pipere - Piper

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  • Justin Mansfield
    Feb 14, 2014
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      OH, and not that it matters, but just for the sake of completeness, you could also tell if it's masculine or neuter in the nominative singular if it were modified by a two- or three- termination third declension adjective. So, e.g. piper acer "sharp pepper (m.)" ~ piper acre "sharp pepper (n.)"

      On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 9:44 AM, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:
      That may be true; it does sound vaguely familiar. And it is definitely true in Greek. But if it is masculine, you will only be able to tell the difference in the accusative (neuter piper, masculine piperem), or in the nom/acc plural (neuter piperia, masculine piperes, but it is, of course, rare to see the word in the plural.) The other forms should all be the same.

      On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 9:30 AM, Magnus Eriksson <Mensarum@...> wrote:

      It seems that piper can be both masculine and neuter. Some dictionaries say it is masculine, others that it is neuter and some dictionaries say it can be both.

      On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:

      Piper is a pretty standard 3rd declension neuter, it's not irregular.

      Of course the grammar of Apicius is not exactly perfect, by classical standards, nor is it totally consistent. So, for instance, many recipes end with a phrase that means "serve, sprinkled with pepper" or the like, but as I recall (and Correus, since you're going through the recipes, feel free to corroborate or contraict me here) there are three common variations:

      * pipere asparso inferes "pepper having been sprinkled, serve" — a good Classical ablative absolute.
      * pipere asparsum inferes "serve it sprinkled  with pepper" — a good Classical participial phrase.
      * piper asparsum inferes, in Classical Latin, this could only mean "serve sprinkled pepper," as if it were the main dish and the rest of the recipe were the condiment. And yet if I remember correctly it's the most common variant!

      On Fri, Feb 14, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Volker Bach <carlton_bach@...> wrote:

      I think it's grammatical. My Latin is awfully rusty, but condies (season with) would imply an instrumental ablative while teres (grind) needs an accusative. I think piper is an irregular declension, but the other words follow that pattern.

      Correus <correus@...> schrieb am 21:56 Donnerstag, 13.Februar 2014:

      Thanks Justin.

      It's been over 20 years since I studied Latin but the light bulb is slowly coming on.  I understand what you are meaning, just not sure if I can explain it.

      As for the project - I was planning on using the nominative singular.


      From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
      To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2014 12:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [Apicius] Pipere - Piper

      Piper is the nominative form of the word, which is the form you should be listing on your index, because that's what you use when you look up. Pipere is the ablative and, to oversimplify for the sake of explanation, means something like "with pepper.." Latin nouns are are inflected for "case." So, to use an analogy, piper and pipere are the same word, just as cook and cooked are.

      The problem is that this is true of EVERY Latin noun, with extremely few exceptions. So if you don't know about declension you're going to have some trouble cataloging the spices.

      Perhaps what you should do is make a list of forms you *think* are the same words, and let me or someone else who knows Latin go over it just to be sure. For the most part you should be able to guess correctly, but it's a good idea to check.

      2014-02-13 13:48 GMT-05:00 Correus <correus@...>:
      Question for our Latin Speakers (you know who you are).....

      Pipere - Piper......   What is the difference between these two words?

      I know it means 'pepper' but this is why I'm asking; when running both words through various online translators 'pepper' comes up - as expected.

      However - when 'pipere' is entered into an online dictionary "no results found" is what keeps popping up.

      Here are two recipes as examples....

      [2.1.1] isicia fiunt marina de cammaris et astacis, de lolligine, de sepia, de locusta. isicium condies pipere, ligustico, cumino, laseris radice.

      [2.1.4] omentata ita fiunt: assas iecur porcinum et [eum] enervas. ante tamen teres piper, rutam, liquamen. et sic superimmittis iecur et teres et misces, sicut pulpa omentata, et singula involvuntur folia lauri, et ad fumum suspenduntur quamdiu voles. cum manducare volueris, tolles de fumo et denuo assas.


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