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5457Re: [Apicius] Cardui

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  • Justin Mansfield
    Sep 1, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      One more detail, kind of silly: my girlfriend, who is not particularly
      interested in ancient food, and certainly not authenticity, said she
      thought it might be good with pasta mixed in. Turns out she was right!


      On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...> wrote:

      > OK I'm eating Apicius 3.19.2, according to Faas's redaction. Not bad! If
      > any of you choose to make that, here are my notes:
      >
      > - Di immortales are cardoons hard to trim!! Took forever!
      > - The quantities of herbs he gives are quite large and result in a
      > sort of chimichurri. Might be a good idea to reduce them at least a little.
      > - 30 minutes on my stove was a little too long.
      > - He forgets to list the pepper, so don't leave it out. Could also use
      > some salt, I think.
      >
      >
      >
      > On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>wrote:
      >
      >> OK, to help make sense of this:
      >>
      >> - I posted saying I had cardoons, and was researching them.
      >> - Lucia suggested a recipe
      >> - I said I was researching ancient recipes. There are a lot of terms
      >> for cardoons in Greek and Latin, and one is particularly thorny, namely
      >> *sfondilus*. That word has several meanings, including part of the
      >> cardoon, and a mollusk. When it occurs in Apicius, some editors say it
      >> refers to the vegetable, some to the mollusk. Therefore, I wasn't planning
      >> to include *sfondilus* recipes.
      >> - Lucia, curious about the *sfondilus* mollusk, suggests it might be
      >> the one called *scungilli* in Italian (so far as I can tell, in
      >> English it is considered a type of whelk, by the way)
      >> - I say that, in fact, it is supposedly *Spondylus gaederopus.*
      >> - Lucia posts an image of a *scungillo* for reference.
      >>
      >> So yes, we're kind of off topic, but what else is new? ;)
      >>
      >> So, to get back on topic, here's a list of my recipes (perhaps I'll give
      >> more details later):
      >>
      >> - The three recipes given in Apicius 3.19. Gozzini-Giacosa gives
      >> redactions of all three (though in these cases she substitutes artichokes),
      >> Faas gives one (and it looks pretty good, I may try it).
      >> - Pliny gives a recipe to preserve cardoons so you can have them all
      >> year round.
      >> - So does Theophrastus (though his is just to store it in brine)
      >> - Galen calls them unhealthy, but gives two ways to prepare them to
      >> mitigate this, one of which is fairly elaborate.
      >>
      >> So, that makes 7 recipes, of which 5 are at all detailed.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Correus <correus@...> wrote:
      >>
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Did an e-mail get mislaid? How did we go from "Cardui" to "sfondilus",
      >>> "scungilli" and "Spondylus gaederopus"?
      >>>
      >>> Last Cadiu e-mail I got said "My mother used to do a Parmigiana with
      >>> them. Maybe with semi-soft cheese and a touch of Garum?" and then it went
      >>> to the other.
      >>>
      >>> Correus
      >>>
      >>> ________________________________
      >>> From: Justin Mansfield <iustinus@...>
      >>> To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      >>> Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 9:00 PM
      >>> Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> According to Andrew Dalby it's *Spondylus gaederopus*, the Spiny European
      >>>
      >>> Oyster. I don't know what its common Italian name is, but googling turns
      >>> up
      >>> spondilo, spronnulo, ostrica rossa, ostrica spinosa, and scataponzolo.
      >>>
      >>> On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 6:57 PM, Lucia Clark <
      >>> luciaclark@...>wrote:
      >>>
      >>> > **
      >>>
      >>> >
      >>> >
      >>> > Could they be the modern "scungilli"?
      >>> >
      >>> >
      >>> > -----Original Message-----
      >>> > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
      >>> Behalf
      >>> > Of
      >>> > Justin Mansfield
      >>> > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 6:45 PM
      >>> > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      >>> > Subject: Re: [Apicius] Cardui
      >>> >
      >>> > I'm hard at work putting together all the ancient recipes, and modern
      >>> > redactions. For now I'm not including the word *sfondilus*, which the
      >>> big
      >>> >
      >>> > names of Roman food scholarship generally interpret as referring to the
      >>> > mollusk of the same name. But there are several good possibilities
      >>> already!
      >>> >
      >>> > On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Lucia Clark
      >>> > <luciaclark@...>wrote:
      >>> >
      >>> > > **
      >>> >
      >>> > >
      >>> > >
      >>> > > My mother used to do a Parmigiana with them. Maybe with semi-soft
      >>> cheese
      >>> > > and
      >>> > > a touch of Garum?
      >>> > >
      >>> > > _____
      >>> > >
      >>> > > From: Apicius@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Apicius@yahoogroups.com] On
      >>> Behalf
      >>> > > Of
      >>> > > Justin Mansfield
      >>> > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 4:58 PM
      >>> > > To: Apicius@yahoogroups.com
      >>> > > Subject: [Apicius] Cardui
      >>> > >
      >>> > >
      >>> > > Just managed to get my hands on a head of cardoons! Now I just need
      >>> to
      >>> > > figure out what to do with them ;)
      >>> > >
      >>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>> > >
      >>> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>> > >
      >>> > >
      >>> > >
      >>> >
      >>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>> >
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      >>>
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      >>>
      >>
      >>
      >


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