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Quest & sourcing hard to find ingredients

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  • Raphaella DiContini
    As a personal challenge to myself above and beyond the recent Courtier trials I underwent, I have also challenged myelf to a year long quest. My quest is to
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 11, 2012
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      As a personal challenge to myself above and beyond the recent Courtier trials I underwent, I have also challenged myelf to a year long quest. My quest is to interpret the last 99 recipes in Libro di Cuchina in the next year, as part of an even bigger ongoing project.
       
      I have gone through all of the recipes I have not yet gotten to and searched for ingredients that might be hard for me to source in Tacoma- if anyone has any recommendations for online or local sources I would be extremely grateful.
       
      I'm looking at this website for some of the harder to find herbal ingredients like elder flower, scabwort, etc.
      http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/index2.html
       
      Ingredients:
      enola (scabwort/horsetail) elecampane x2 recipe
      sloes
      millet
      Sumac
      Wheat berries
      Rice
      Pine nuts
      Elderflowers (4 recipes)
      Saracen grapes
      flowers of cinnamon
      seeds of the rocket, rue
      two pounds of spelt
      fresh fava
      fresh beans (garbanzo, fava, or black eyed peas)
      (stomach/gizzard) and liver of hens
      Quince
      “iola”
       
      Lamb gizzards/ offal
      boar meat ears and the feet and everything, and capons, and partridge, and thrush and hair, and roebuck (venison) and pheasant
      Pork belly
      Quail
      pigeon
      pork liver and the intestinal caul or casing
      sheep’s milk
      fresh sheep’s or goat’s milk
      shoulder of mutton, spleens
      eels
      three large tench or one large eel
       
       
      In joyous service,
      Signora Honorata Raffaella di Contino
      Courtier of Blatha An Oir
       


    • David Walddon
      Get elderflower from your local brewing store. Or at the very least Mountain Home brew in Kirkland. They have the best prices! Sumac is best from Tenzeng Mo Mo
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 11, 2012
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        Get elderflower from your local brewing store. Or at the very least Mountain Home brew in Kirkland. 
        They have the best prices! 
        Sumac is best from Tenzeng Mo Mo in the Pike Market. 
        Wheat berries from Ranch 99. 
        Quail from Ranch 99. 
        Lots of other things from Ranch 99. 

        Flowers of Cinnamon might be a translation problem. 

        Eduardo 
        __________________________________

        Join me in voting to APPROVE R74
        http://washingtonunitedformarriage.org/ 

        David Walddon
        360-402-6135 Cell




        On Sep 11, 2012, at 2:44 PM, Raphaella DiContini wrote:

         

        As a personal challenge to myself above and beyond the recent Courtier trials I underwent, I have also challenged myelf to a year long quest. My quest is to interpret the last 99 recipes in Libro di Cuchina in the next year, as part of an even bigger ongoing project.
         
        I have gone through all of the recipes I have not yet gotten to and searched for ingredients that might be hard for me to source in Tacoma- if anyone has any recommendations for online or local sources I would be extremely grateful.
         
        I'm looking at this website for some of the harder to find herbal ingredients like elder flower, scabwort, etc.
         
        Ingredients:
        enola (scabwort/horsetail) elecampane x2 recipe
        sloes
        millet
        Sumac
        Wheat berries
        Rice
        Pine nuts
        Elderflowers (4 recipes)
        Saracen grapes
        flowers of cinnamon
        seeds of the rocket, rue
        two pounds of spelt
        fresh fava
        fresh beans (garbanzo, fava, or black eyed peas)
        (stomach/gizzard) and liver of hens
        Quince
        “iola”
         
        Lamb gizzards/ offal
        boar meat ears and the feet and everything, and capons, and partridge, and thrush and hair, and roebuck (venison) and pheasant
        Pork belly
        Quail
        pigeon
        pork liver and the intestinal caul or casing
        sheep’s milk
        fresh sheep’s or goat’s milk
        shoulder of mutton, spleens
        eels
        three large tench or one large eel
         
         
        In joyous service,
        Signora Honorata Raffaella di Contino
        Courtier of Blatha An Oir
         




      • Donna Green
          Fresh favas are in season now, so check out your farmers market.   Good luck with the sheep milk ... the closest I can come is sheep yogurt.   Juana
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 11, 2012
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          Fresh favas are in season now, so check out your farmers market.
           
          Good luck with the sheep milk ... the closest I can come is sheep yogurt.
           
          Juana Isabella

          --- On Tue, 9/11/12, Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad@...> wrote:

          From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad@...>
          Subject: [MCG] Quest & sourcing hard to find ingredients
          To: "MadroneCulinary" <mad-cul-gld@...>, "Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com" <Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Tuesday, September 11, 2012, 2:44 PM

          As a personal challenge to myself above and beyond the recent Courtier trials I underwent, I have also challenged myelf to a year long quest. My quest is to interpret the last 99 recipes in Libro di Cuchina in the next year, as part of an even bigger ongoing project.
           
          I have gone through all of the recipes I have not yet gotten to and searched for ingredients that might be hard for me to source in Tacoma- if anyone has any recommendations for online or local sources I would be extremely grateful.
           
          I'm looking at this website for some of the harder to find herbal ingredients like elder flower, scabwort, etc.
          http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/index2.html
           
          Ingredients:
          enola (scabwort/horsetail) elecampane x2 recipe
          sloes
          millet
          Sumac
          Wheat berries
          Rice
          Pine nuts
          Elderflowers (4 recipes)
          Saracen grapes
          flowers of cinnamon
          seeds of the rocket, rue
          two pounds of spelt
          fresh fava
          fresh beans (garbanzo, fava, or black eyed peas)
          (stomach/gizzard) and liver of hens
          Quince
          “iola”
           
          Lamb gizzards/ offal
          boar meat ears and the feet and everything, and capons, and partridge, and thrush and hair, and roebuck (venison) and pheasant
          Pork belly
          Quail
          pigeon
          pork liver and the intestinal caul or casing
          sheep’s milk
          fresh sheep’s or goat’s milk
          shoulder of mutton, spleens
          eels
          three large tench or one large eel
           
           
          In joyous service,
          Signora Honorata Raffaella di Contino
          Courtier of Blatha An Oir
           



          -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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          Please use "Reply-All" if you wish to respond to the list rather than the sender.
        • Rikke D. Giles
          Greetings! Any timeline on when you might want these things? I can, of course, easily provide fresh goats milk. That is, when they are in milk :). I will
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 11, 2012
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            Greetings!

            Any timeline on when you might want these things?

            I can, of course, easily provide fresh goats' milk. That is, when they
            are in milk :). I will stop milking some time between Dec and end of
            Jan, depends on how cold it is and how little milk I'm getting at the
            time (the two are somewhat related). I'll start milking again, other
            does of course, early June to early July. I almost always have frozen
            goats' milk. The difference between that and truely fresh, as far as I
            can tell, is the frozen stuff separates a bit easier. It's still
            drinkable, definitely cookable and cheese-make-able. I don't freeze it
            for more than a couple months before using.

            I have several elderberry bushes. They put on blossoms on the spring.
            You are welcome to them, but it is in the spring only. I have tons of
            horsetail. It is most tender in the spring. I don't think I have
            sloes, but my father might on his property. I'll ask. Those again,
            probably spring or summer. I have elecampane, I think. Do you want
            the plant, the flower, or what?

            Rocket and Rue are pretty easy to plant, and get the seeds from. Can
            do that too, if you want.

            Also, some time next year we'll start doing meat chickens, so we'll
            have plenty of gizzards, livers, etc. Well, by plenty I mean 10 or so
            at a time. We aren't going to be doing tons at once...

            As for sheep's milk, I don't have animals that produce that myself, but
            I do know people who have them. Do you want me to ask?

            YS,
            Aelianora, da farmer!
          • Karen Kidd
            Check with your local food co-op. The closest to you, I believe, is in Olympia. They have the damndest things and are much in touch with local food producers.
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 11, 2012
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              Check with your local food co-op. The closest to you, I believe, is in Olympia. They have the damndest things and are much in touch with local food producers.

              Here in Salem, I rely on Lifesource. I haven't used sheep's milk in a while but when I wanted to try to make a cheese that called for sheep's milk, it was Lifesource that put me in touch with a local farmer and then . . . happiness. I also can buy cardamom by the pod there :-)

              Not so sure about the sloes . . .

              Good luck.

              --Karin



              From: Donna Green <donnaegreen@...>
              To: MadroneCulinary <mad-cul-gld@...>; "Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com" <Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com>; Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad@...>
              Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:39 PM
              Subject: [Antir_culinary] Re: [MCG] Quest & sourcing hard to find ingredients

               
               
              Fresh favas are in season now, so check out your farmers market.
               
              Good luck with the sheep milk ... the closest I can come is sheep yogurt.
               
              Juana Isabella

              --- On Tue, 9/11/12, Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad@...> wrote:

              From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad@...>
              Subject: [MCG] Quest & sourcing hard to find ingredients
              To: "MadroneCulinary" <mad-cul-gld@...>, "Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com" <Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, September 11, 2012, 2:44 PM

              As a personal challenge to myself above and beyond the recent Courtier trials I underwent, I have also challenged myelf to a year long quest. My quest is to interpret the last 99 recipes in Libro di Cuchina in the next year, as part of an even bigger ongoing project.
               
              I have gone through all of the recipes I have not yet gotten to and searched for ingredients that might be hard for me to source in Tacoma- if anyone has any recommendations for online or local sources I would be extremely grateful.
               
              I'm looking at this website for some of the harder to find herbal ingredients like elder flower, scabwort, etc.
              http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/index2.html
               
              Ingredients:
              enola (scabwort/horsetail) elecampane x2 recipe
              sloes
              millet
              Sumac
              Wheat berries
              Rice
              Pine nuts
              Elderflowers (4 recipes)
              Saracen grapes
              flowers of cinnamon
              seeds of the rocket, rue
              two pounds of spelt
              fresh fava
              fresh beans (garbanzo, fava, or black eyed peas)
              (stomach/gizzard) and liver of hens
              Quince
              “iola”
               
              Lamb gizzards/ offal
              boar meat ears and the feet and everything, and capons, and partridge, and thrush and hair, and roebuck (venison) and pheasant
              Pork belly
              Quail
              pigeon
              pork liver and the intestinal caul or casing
              sheep’s milk
              fresh sheep’s or goat’s milk
              shoulder of mutton, spleens
              eels
              three large tench or one large eel
               
               
              In joyous service,
              Signora Honorata Raffaella di Contino
              Courtier of Blatha An Oir
               



              -----Inline Attachment Follows-----

              _______________________________________________
              mad-cul-gld mailing list:
              http://missives.antir.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/mad-cul-gld
              Guild Webpage: http://www.liripipe.com/mcg/

              Please use "Reply-All" if you wish to respond to the list rather than the sender.


            • The Henson's
              You might also try Farmer George in Port Orchard for unusual meat items. They carry things like pheasant and quail regularly and have other things. The
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 12, 2012
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                You might also try Farmer George in Port Orchard for unusual meat items.
                They carry things like pheasant and quail regularly and have other
                things. The Olympia Farmer's market is also worth a field trip. I've
                found a number of unusual things down there. Of course I always swear by
                Central Market here in Poulsbo.

                It will be interesting to hear where you find all the things you need.

                Good Luck
                Rycheza

                On 9/11/2012 2:44 PM, Raphaella DiContini wrote:
                >
                >
                > As a personal challenge to myself above and beyond the recent Courtier
                > trials I underwent, I have also challenged myelf to a year long quest.
                > My quest is to interpret the last 99 recipes in Libro di Cuchina in the
                > next year, as part of an even bigger ongoing project.
                > I have gone through all of the recipes I have not yet gotten to and
                > searched for ingredients that might be hard for me to source in Tacoma-
                > if anyone has any recommendations for online or local sources I would be
                > extremely grateful.
                > I'm looking at this website for some of the harder to find herbal
                > ingredients like elder flower, scabwort, etc.
                > http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/index2.html
                > Ingredients:
                > enola (scabwort/horsetail) elecampane x2 recipe
                > sloes
                > millet
                > Sumac
                > Wheat berries
                > Rice
                > Pine nuts
                > Elderflowers (4 recipes)
                > Saracen grapes
                > flowers of cinnamon
                > seeds of the rocket, rue
                > two pounds of spelt
                > fresh fava
                > fresh beans (garbanzo, fava, or black eyed peas)
                > (stomach/gizzard) and liver of hens
                > Quince
                > “iola”
                > Lamb gizzards/ offal
                > boar meat ears and the feet and everything, and capons, and partridge,
                > and thrush and hair, and roebuck (venison) and pheasant
                > Pork belly
                > Quail
                > pigeon
                > pork liver and the intestinal caul or casing
                > sheep’s milk
                > fresh sheep’s or goat’s milk
                > shoulder of mutton, spleens
                > eels
                > three large tench or one large eel
                > **
                > *In joyous service,
                > Signora Honorata Raffaella di Contino *
                > *Courtier of Blatha An Oir *
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Julilla Sempronia
                There are some local (Washington state) farmers that produce spelt (berries, rolled & flour). I find spelt pretty easily in local health food stores;
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 12, 2012
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                  There are some local (Washington state) farmers that produce spelt (berries, rolled & flour). I find spelt pretty easily in local health food stores; alternatively, you can buy online at this site:


                  Bonam Fortunam!
                  --
                  Julia Sempronia, JdL, GdS, OC (Sara Urdahl)
                  Gules, a ram couchant contourny reguardant Or
                  Officium Ante Proprium Bonum

                • Raphaella DiContini
                  I would be delighted to work with you on this and use seasonal farm-fresh ingredients. Would you mind if we schedule some weekend time when each of these
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 12, 2012
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                    I would be delighted to work with you on this and use seasonal farm-fresh ingredients. Would you mind if we schedule some weekend time when each of these becomes available for me to come over and play? Unfortunately my long commute makes weekdays pretty much impossible unless I plan in advance to take vacation time (which we can arrange if it would work best for you). Let me know when you think would be good timing for me to be over for harvest and I will be there!
                     
                    It sounds like there are a lot of these items that would be best for me to come harvest in the spring, would  you mind if I did the gathering and then possibly cooking there and photograph the process?
                     
                    I also really want to come work with you some time on this specific cheese/ butter related recipe:
                    X. Butiro de chaxi freschi, etc.
                    Se tu voy fare butiro de casi freschi per fare alchuna cossa, toy VI casi freschi apestati al piú che tu poy, e quando eno ben pestati e destemperati con aqua freda chiara, el grasso tornarà disopra; toilo e ponilo sul tagliero, e poylo dare con quela vivanda che tu vole, e in torta che tu vole e starà bene.
                    X. Butter of fresh cheese, etc.
                    If you want to make butter from fresh cheese to make other dishes.  Take six fresh cheeses and mash them very well.  When they are mashed temper with clear cold water.  The fat will rise to the surface, scrape it off with a knife, and then put it into whatever dish that you would like, and in tarts if you want it will be good.
                     
                    Do you t hink just one version of this might be do-able as part of the butter and cheese making demo at June Faire?
                    I would love to ultimately try this with a couple of different kinds of fresh cheese- perhaps I could try to find some non-homogenized cows milk as well as sheep or any other kind I can get my hands on- I would LOVE it if you could help  me find a source for sheep's milk.
                     
                    The "elecampane" may or may not be a translation issue- I'm not sure which of the two versions I have is most correct:
                    XXXVII. Lenolata over Enolata.
                    Enolata; toy enola e mondala tayala, e poy pestala con panza de porcho cruda, e mitige formaio fresco, e distempera con ova e fay una crosta, e mitila in la padella, e mitige onto colato, e fala chosere.
                    XXXVII. Lean dish or scabwort dish
                    Enolata, take enola (scabwort/horsetail) and peel and cut, and then paste with pork belly raw, and put in fresh cheese and temper with eggs and make a crust, and put it in a frying pan, and put clean grease and make it cook.
                    * In the Hoare  enola is translated as elecampane in Floria as scabwort/horsetail.
                     XXXVII Lean dish or dish with “enula”
                    Take elecampane (Inula helenium, relative of chicory) peel it and then grind it with raw pork belly, add fresh cheese and temper with eggs.  Make a crust, and put it into the pan and put some strained grease and put it to cook.
                     
                    In joyous service,
                    Raffaella

                    From: Rikke D. Giles <rgiles@...>
                    To: Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2012 3:53 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Antir_culinary] Quest & sourcing hard to find ingredients

                    Greetings!

                    Any timeline on when you might want these things?

                    I can, of course, easily provide fresh goats' milk.  That is, when they
                    are in milk :).  I will stop milking some time between Dec and end of
                    Jan, depends on how cold it is and how little milk I'm getting at the
                    time (the two are somewhat related).  I'll start milking again, other
                    does of course, early June to early July.  I almost always have frozen
                    goats' milk.  The difference between that and truely fresh, as far as I
                    can tell, is the frozen stuff separates a bit easier.  It's still
                    drinkable, definitely cookable and cheese-make-able.  I don't freeze it
                    for more than a couple months before using.

                    I have several elderberry bushes.  They put on blossoms on the spring. 
                    You are welcome to them, but it is in the spring only.  I have tons of
                    horsetail.  It is most tender in the spring.  I don't think I have
                    sloes, but my father might on his property.  I'll ask.  Those again,
                    probably spring or summer.  I have elecampane, I think.  Do you want
                    the plant, the flower, or what?

                    Rocket and Rue are pretty easy to plant, and get the seeds from.  Can
                    do that too, if you want. 

                    Also, some time next year we'll start doing meat chickens, so we'll
                    have plenty of gizzards, livers, etc.  Well, by plenty I mean 10 or so
                    at a time.  We aren't going to be doing tons at once...

                    As for sheep's milk, I don't have animals that produce that myself, but
                    I do know people who have them.  Do you want me to ask?

                    YS,
                    Aelianora, da farmer!
                  • Rikke D. Giles
                    ... This recipe intrigues me because I can t for the life of me figure out why they d do this. All I can come up with is someone noticed that you can get
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                      Raff wrote:
                      > I also really want to come work with you some time on this specific
                      > cheese/ butter related recipe:
                      > X.Butiro de chaxi freschi, etc.
                      > Se tu voy fare butiro de casi freschi per fare alchuna cossa, toy VI
                      > casi freschi apestati al piú che tu poy, e quando eno ben pestati e
                      > destemperati con aqua freda chiara, el grasso tornarà disopra; toilo
                      > e ponilo sul tagliero, e poylo dare con quela vivanda che tu vole, e
                      > in torta che tu vole e starà bene.
                      > X. Butter of fresh cheese, etc.
                      > If you want to make butter from fresh cheese to make other dishes. 
                      > Take six fresh cheeses and mash them very well.  When they are mashed
                      > temper with clear cold water.  The fat will rise to the surface,
                      > scrape it off with a knife, and then put it into whatever dish that
                      > you would like, and in tarts if you want it will be good.
                      >  Do you think just one version of this might be do-able as part of
                      > the butter and cheese making demo at June Faire?
                      > I would love to ultimately try this with a couple of different kinds
                      > of fresh cheese- perhaps I could try to find some non-homogenized
                      > cows milk as well as sheep or any other kind I can get my hands on- I
                      > would LOVE it if you could help  me find a source for sheep's milk.

                      This recipe intrigues me because I can't for the life of me figure out
                      why they'd do this. All I can come up with is someone noticed that you
                      can get butter from cheese (something any dairy maid could tell you)
                      and noted it down or something. Or maybe they were using a milk that
                      doesn't separate all that easily, like goat milk or sheep milk and this
                      seemed a simple way to separate it.

                      In making cheese it's dead easy to get butterfat floating on the
                      surface of the curds, in the whey and so on. In fact, whey butter was
                      often made from the left over fat floating in the whey. I've done this
                      a couple of times myself. One has to let the whey cool, then skim off
                      the fat, then shake it. Voila, butter.

                      When the milk has been processed into curds, while it is being cut and
                      heated (if the recipe calls for that), it's very easy to mistreat the
                      curds, mash them back into something like milk and leave the butterfat
                      floating on the surface. If the curds aren't strong enough when the
                      cutting begins, they also quickly disintegrate back into a sort of
                      clotty milk. In fact, you know you are going to have a bad yield of
                      cheese, and maybe a troublesome make, when the whey is too milky and
                      the curds are too tender.

                      It would be very easy to deliberately mistreat the curds/cheeses and
                      force them back into clotty milk with fat floating on the surface. Why
                      they did this deliberately is beyond me. Any hints as to the context
                      of the recipe?

                      Aelianora

                      PS I don't see why this wouldn't be possible to try. Maybe with some
                      cheaper milk to start with. I can get pasteurized, NON-homogenized
                      cow's milk at the local Central Market. It's middling expensive, but
                      nothing like goat milk. I can also get raw cow's milk from Chimacum
                      and a few other places. It's about 10-11$ a gallon and is quite nice.
                      I use it in cheesemaking now, about 1/3 cows and 2/3 goats. I let the
                      milk sit out over night and the cream that rises is beautiful. I also
                      am able to skim goat milk pretty easily because I usually freeze it
                      before making cheese with it. It separates easier after freezing.
                    • wheezul@canby.com
                      ... Since it is mentioned as an ingredient in pastry, and usually the crust recipes specify a liquified fat, perhaps this was a was of collecting clarified
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                        >
                        > This recipe intrigues me because I can't for the life of me figure out
                        > why they'd do this. All I can come up with is someone noticed that you
                        > can get butter from cheese (something any dairy maid could tell you)
                        > and noted it down or something. Or maybe they were using a milk that
                        > doesn't separate all that easily, like goat milk or sheep milk and this
                        >
                        > seemed a simple way to separate it.

                        Since it is mentioned as an ingredient in pastry, and usually the crust
                        recipes specify a liquified fat, perhaps this was a was of collecting
                        clarified butterfat? An interesting recipe from a German cookbook has the
                        instruction to put butter in a glass vessel and put it in the sun, and
                        decant it for the next 30 days leaving the solids behind. Just guessing
                        here...

                        Katherine
                      • Lisa Mohr
                        I ve been thinking about this as well, and wonder if the idea is not to make butter per se but to get a soft, malleable milkfat product that one can use in
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                          I've been thinking about this as well, and wonder if the idea is not to make 'butter' per se but to get a soft, malleable milkfat product that one can use in making pastry.  Fresh cheeses are often high in fat and this looks like it would extract that pretty effectively.
                           
                          Again, why comes to mind.  My only conclusion so far is that this might be something you would do if you had only fresh cheese, and no butter handy.
                           
                          ???
                          Elisabeth

                          From: Rikke D. Giles <rgiles@...>
                          To: Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 5:37 AM
                          Subject: [Antir_culinary] Butter of Fresh Cheese

                           
                          Raff wrote:
                          > I also really want to come work with you some time on this specific
                          > cheese/ butter related recipe:
                          > X.Butiro de chaxi freschi, etc.
                          > Se tu voy fare butiro de casi freschi per fare alchuna cossa, toy VI
                          > casi freschi apestati al piú che tu poy, e quando eno ben pestati e
                          > destemperati con aqua freda chiara, el grasso tornarà disopra; toilo
                          > e ponilo sul tagliero, e poylo dare con quela vivanda che tu vole, e
                          > in torta che tu vole e starà bene.
                          > X. Butter of fresh cheese, etc.
                          > If you want to make butter from fresh cheese to make other dishes. 
                          > Take six fresh cheeses and mash them very well.  When they are mashed
                          > temper with clear cold water.  The fat will rise to the surface,
                          > scrape it off with a knife, and then put it into whatever dish that
                          > you would like, and in tarts if you want it will be good.
                          >  Do you think just one version of this might be do-able as part of
                          > the butter and cheese making demo at June Faire?
                          > I would love to ultimately try this with a couple of different kinds
                          > of fresh cheese- perhaps I could try to find some non-homogenized
                          > cows milk as well as sheep or any other kind I can get my hands on- I
                          > would LOVE it if you could help  me find a source for sheep's milk.

                          This recipe intrigues me because I can't for the life of me figure out
                          why they'd do this. All I can come up with is someone noticed that you
                          can get butter from cheese (something any dairy maid could tell you)
                          and noted it down or something. Or maybe they were using a milk that
                          doesn't separate all that easily, like goat milk or sheep milk and this
                          seemed a simple way to separate it.

                          In making cheese it's dead easy to get butterfat floating on the
                          surface of the curds, in the whey and so on. In fact, whey butter was
                          often made from the left over fat floating in the whey. I've done this
                          a couple of times myself. One has to let the whey cool, then skim off
                          the fat, then shake it. Voila, butter.

                          When the milk has been processed into curds, while it is being cut and
                          heated (if the recipe calls for that), it's very easy to mistreat the
                          curds, mash them back into something like milk and leave the butterfat
                          floating on the surface. If the curds aren't strong enough when the
                          cutting begins, they also quickly disintegrate back into a sort of
                          clotty milk. In fact, you know you are going to have a bad yield of
                          cheese, and maybe a troublesome make, when the whey is too milky and
                          the curds are too tender.

                          It would be very easy to deliberately mistreat the curds/cheeses and
                          force them back into clotty milk with fat floating on the surface. Why
                          they did this deliberately is beyond me. Any hints as to the context
                          of the recipe?

                          Aelianora

                          PS I don't see why this wouldn't be possible to try. Maybe with some
                          cheaper milk to start with. I can get pasteurized, NON-homogenized
                          cow's milk at the local Central Market. It's middling expensive, but
                          nothing like goat milk. I can also get raw cow's milk from Chimacum
                          and a few other places. It's about 10-11$ a gallon and is quite nice.
                          I use it in cheesemaking now, about 1/3 cows and 2/3 goats. I let the
                          milk sit out over night and the cream that rises is beautiful. I also
                          am able to skim goat milk pretty easily because I usually freeze it
                          before making cheese with it. It separates easier after freezing.


                        • David Walddon
                          I would like to see the original (both the language and the facsimile) because there may be some assumptions in both the transcription and the translation that
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                            I would like to see the original (both the language and the facsimile) because there may be some assumptions in both the transcription and the translation that are obscuring the bigger picture. 
                            Also where does this fall in the manuscript? 
                            What are the other recipes around this one? 
                            Is it clearly in a "section" or does it stand alone? 

                            Eduardo 


                            On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:07 AM, Lisa Mohr wrote:

                             

                            I've been thinking about this as well, and wonder if the idea is not to make 'butter' per se but to get a soft, malleable milkfat product that one can use in making pastry.  Fresh cheeses are often high in fat and this looks like it would extract that pretty effectively.
                             
                            Again, why comes to mind.  My only conclusion so far is that this might be something you would do if you had only fresh cheese, and no butter handy.
                             
                            ???
                            Elisabeth

                            From: Rikke D. Giles <rgiles@...>
                            To: Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 5:37 AM
                            Subject: [Antir_culinary] Butter of Fresh Cheese

                             
                            Raff wrote:
                            > I also really want to come work with you some time on this specific
                            > cheese/ butter related recipe:
                            > X.Butiro de chaxi freschi, etc.
                            > Se tu voy fare butiro de casi freschi per fare alchuna cossa, toy VI
                            > casi freschi apestati al piú che tu poy, e quando eno ben pestati e
                            > destemperati con aqua freda chiara, el grasso tornarà disopra; toilo
                            > e ponilo sul tagliero, e poylo dare con quela vivanda che tu vole, e
                            > in torta che tu vole e starà bene.
                            > X. Butter of fresh cheese, etc.
                            > If you want to make butter from fresh cheese to make other dishes. 
                            > Take six fresh cheeses and mash them very well.  When they are mashed
                            > temper with clear cold water.  The fat will rise to the surface,
                            > scrape it off with a knife, and then put it into whatever dish that
                            > you would like, and in tarts if you want it will be good.
                            >  Do you think just one version of this might be do-able as part of
                            > the butter and cheese making demo at June Faire?
                            > I would love to ultimately try this with a couple of different kinds
                            > of fresh cheese- perhaps I could try to find some non-homogenized
                            > cows milk as well as sheep or any other kind I can get my hands on- I
                            > would LOVE it if you could help  me find a source for sheep's milk.

                            This recipe intrigues me because I can't for the life of me figure out
                            why they'd do this. All I can come up with is someone noticed that you
                            can get butter from cheese (something any dairy maid could tell you)
                            and noted it down or something. Or maybe they were using a milk that
                            doesn't separate all that easily, like goat milk or sheep milk and this
                            seemed a simple way to separate it.

                            In making cheese it's dead easy to get butterfat floating on the
                            surface of the curds, in the whey and so on. In fact, whey butter was
                            often made from the left over fat floating in the whey. I've done this
                            a couple of times myself. One has to let the whey cool, then skim off
                            the fat, then shake it. Voila, butter.

                            When the milk has been processed into curds, while it is being cut and
                            heated (if the recipe calls for that), it's very easy to mistreat the
                            curds, mash them back into something like milk and leave the butterfat
                            floating on the surface. If the curds aren't strong enough when the
                            cutting begins, they also quickly disintegrate back into a sort of
                            clotty milk. In fact, you know you are going to have a bad yield of
                            cheese, and maybe a troublesome make, when the whey is too milky and
                            the curds are too tender.

                            It would be very easy to deliberately mistreat the curds/cheeses and
                            force them back into clotty milk with fat floating on the surface. Why
                            they did this deliberately is beyond me. Any hints as to the context
                            of the recipe?

                            Aelianora

                            PS I don't see why this wouldn't be possible to try. Maybe with some
                            cheaper milk to start with. I can get pasteurized, NON-homogenized
                            cow's milk at the local Central Market. It's middling expensive, but
                            nothing like goat milk. I can also get raw cow's milk from Chimacum
                            and a few other places. It's about 10-11$ a gallon and is quite nice.
                            I use it in cheesemaking now, about 1/3 cows and 2/3 goats. I let the
                            milk sit out over night and the cream that rises is beautiful. I also
                            am able to skim goat milk pretty easily because I usually freeze it
                            before making cheese with it. It separates easier after freezing.




                          • wheezul@canby.com
                            What s the locale of this cookbook? Could keeping fresh butter be a problem due to the heat and would it be more effective to turn the high butterfat milk
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                              What's the locale of this cookbook? Could keeping fresh butter be a
                              problem due to the heat and would it be more effective to turn the high
                              butterfat milk into cheese for storage purposes?

                              Katherine

                              On Fri, 14 Sep 2012 09:07:35 -0700 (PDT), Lisa Mohr <gulesandor@...>
                              wrote:
                              > I've been thinking about this as well, and wonder if the idea is not to
                              > make 'butter' per se but to get a soft, malleable milkfat product that
                              > one can use in making pastry. Fresh cheeses are often high in fat and
                              > this looks like it would extract that pretty effectively. Again, why
                              > comes to mind. My only conclusion so far is that this might be something
                              > you would do if you had only fresh cheese, and no butter handy. ???
                              > Elisabeth
                            • Raphaella DiContini
                              I only have a moment, so I ll try to catch up on several lines of discussion at once. :)   This manuscript is from northern Italy- specifically Venice,
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                                I only have a moment, so I'll try to catch up on several lines of discussion at once. :)
                                 
                                This manuscript is from northern Italy- specifically Venice, although some of the recipes are also seen in other manuscripts across Europe. I do find it interesting that there is another "butter alternate" recipe in this book for lent, and it comes directly after "butter of fresh cheese".
                                XI. Butiro de grasso de mandole.
                                Se tu voy fare butiro de grasso de mandole per fare vivande de venerdí o de quaresima, tolgli tre libre de mandole per fare torta a quale vivanda che tu voy per XII persone, e de questo butiro se po condier tartare e altre torte. In dí che non se magna carne toy le mandole ben monde e ben lavate e ben masenate e stemperali con aqua chiara, e fai che sia ben stretto e colalli e meti questo late de le ditte mandole a bolire, e quando è ben bolito gettalo sopra una tovaia biancha. Quando è ben colada l’ aqua di sotto, togli uno bello cortello e levallo da la tovaglia, e ponilo suso lo taiero, e metilo in quella vivanda che tu voy.
                                XI. Butter of fat of almonds (almond butter)
                                If you want to make butter of almond fat to make dishes for Friday or for lent take three pounds of almonds to make a tart or whatever dish that you want for 12 persons.  And this butter you can use to flavor tartare (a sort of pie made of soaked bread, almonds and sugar) or other pies.  For when one does not eat meat, take the almonds peel, wash grind well and stamp with clear water.  And when it (the almond milk) has been well strained and pressed put this milk of almonds to boil.  When it has well boiled pour it over a white cloth (that is presumably suspended to allow liquid to drain away).  When the water has strained below take good knife and scrape (the butter) from the cloth and put it on the taiero and use the butter in whatever dish you want.
                                 
                                Here is my interpretation with photos: http://allvenicechannel.dreamwidth.org/4843.html
                                 
                                Eduardo, unfortunately I have only been able to locate digital transcriptions of the manuscript, although I have sent a message to the museum I believe has the original in hopes of obtaining a facimilie and information on how it is bound, but I can't seem to find where I put their contact information. I will look in my notes at home tonight if there is time (I have family in town I'm cooking dinner for).
                                 
                                and the one I have based most of my work on: http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/frati.htm
                                 
                                I believe this the manuscript number Biblioteca Casanatense No. 225, 15th c, but again, the rest of my notes are at home and I'm going from shaky memory. :)
                                 
                                In my studies on Italian food and medicine I have stumbled across modern medical research regarding the MUCH higher prevelence of lactose intolerance in Italians, increasing greatly the further south you get until you reach over 75% in regions like Sicely, which makes me wonder if the additional process of making it into cheese then rendering the fat back out of it might break down the milk fats just a bit more and in any way make them easier to digest, or if it was just a convinience of storage that might have nessesitated this?
                                 
                                In joyous service,
                                Raffaella
                                 
                                 

                                From: David Walddon <david@...>
                                To: Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 9:16 AM
                                Subject: Re: [Antir_culinary] Butter of Fresh Cheese



                                I would like to see the original (both the language and the facsimile) because there may be some assumptions in both the transcription and the translation that are obscuring the bigger picture. 
                                Also where does this fall in the manuscript? 
                                What are the other recipes around this one? 
                                Is it clearly in a "section" or does it stand alone? 

                                Eduardo 


                                On Sep 14, 2012, at 9:07 AM, Lisa Mohr wrote:

                                 

                                I've been thinking about this as well, and wonder if the idea is not to make 'butter' per se but to get a soft, malleable milkfat product that one can use in making pastry.  Fresh cheeses are often high in fat and this looks like it would extract that pretty effectively.
                                 
                                Again, why comes to mind.  My only conclusion so far is that this might be something you would do if you had only fresh cheese, and no butter handy.
                                 
                                ???
                                Elisabeth

                                From: Rikke D. Giles <rgiles@...>
                                To: Antir_culinary@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, September 14, 2012 5:37 AM
                                Subject: [Antir_culinary] Butter of Fresh Cheese

                                 
                                Raff wrote:
                                > I also really want to come work with you some time on this specific
                                > cheese/ butter related recipe:
                                > X.Butiro de chaxi freschi, etc.
                                > Se tu voy fare butiro de casi freschi per fare alchuna cossa, toy VI
                                > casi freschi apestati al piú che tu poy, e quando eno ben pestati e
                                > destemperati con aqua freda chiara, el grasso tornarà disopra; toilo
                                > e ponilo sul tagliero, e poylo dare con quela vivanda che tu vole, e
                                > in torta che tu vole e starà bene.
                                > X. Butter of fresh cheese, etc.
                                > If you want to make butter from fresh cheese to make other dishes. 
                                > Take six fresh cheeses and mash them very well.  When they are mashed
                                > temper with clear cold water.  The fat will rise to the surface,
                                > scrape it off with a knife, and then put it into whatever dish that
                                > you would like, and in tarts if you want it will be good.
                                >  Do you think just one version of this might be do-able as part of
                                > the butter and cheese making demo at June Faire?
                                > I would love to ultimately try this with a couple of different kinds
                                > of fresh cheese- perhaps I could try to find some non-homogenized
                                > cows milk as well as sheep or any other kind I can get my hands on- I
                                > would LOVE it if you could help  me find a source for sheep's milk.

                                This recipe intrigues me because I can't for the life of me figure out
                                why they'd do this. All I can come up with is someone noticed that you
                                can get butter from cheese (something any dairy maid could tell you)
                                and noted it down or something. Or maybe they were using a milk that
                                doesn't separate all that easily, like goat milk or sheep milk and this
                                seemed a simple way to separate it.

                                In making cheese it's dead easy to get butterfat floating on the
                                surface of the curds, in the whey and so on. In fact, whey butter was
                                often made from the left over fat floating in the whey. I've done this
                                a couple of times myself. One has to let the whey cool, then skim off
                                the fat, then shake it. Voila, butter.

                                When the milk has been processed into curds, while it is being cut and
                                heated (if the recipe calls for that), it's very easy to mistreat the
                                curds, mash them back into something like milk and leave the butterfat
                                floating on the surface. If the curds aren't strong enough when the
                                cutting begins, they also quickly disintegrate back into a sort of
                                clotty milk. In fact, you know you are going to have a bad yield of
                                cheese, and maybe a troublesome make, when the whey is too milky and
                                the curds are too tender.

                                It would be very easy to deliberately mistreat the curds/cheeses and
                                force them back into clotty milk with fat floating on the surface. Why
                                they did this deliberately is beyond me. Any hints as to the context
                                of the recipe?

                                Aelianora

                                PS I don't see why this wouldn't be possible to try. Maybe with some
                                cheaper milk to start with. I can get pasteurized, NON-homogenized
                                cow's milk at the local Central Market. It's middling expensive, but
                                nothing like goat milk. I can also get raw cow's milk from Chimacum
                                and a few other places. It's about 10-11$ a gallon and is quite nice.
                                I use it in cheesemaking now, about 1/3 cows and 2/3 goats. I let the
                                milk sit out over night and the cream that rises is beautiful. I also
                                am able to skim goat milk pretty easily because I usually freeze it
                                before making cheese with it. It separates easier after freezing.








                              • Rikke D. Giles
                                ... Maybe, but it seems to me one would get a lot more clarified butter if one simply took the butter and clarified it. The German recipe is interesting and I
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                                  On 09/14/2012 08:33:57 AM, wheezul@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Since it is mentioned as an ingredient in pastry, and usually the
                                  > crust recipes specify a liquified fat, perhaps this was a was of
                                  > collecting clarified butterfat? An interesting recipe from a German
                                  > cookbook has the instruction to put butter in a glass vessel and put
                                  > it in the sun, and decant it for the next 30 days leaving the solids
                                  > behind. Just guessing here...
                                  >
                                  > Katherine

                                  Maybe, but it seems to me one would get a lot more clarified butter if
                                  one simply took the butter and clarified it. The German recipe is
                                  interesting and I will see if I can find other recipes for it. The
                                  butterfat that rises to the surface of the whey and the mashed up
                                  cheese is more clarified than say, regularly made butter, but it's
                                  still not super clear.

                                  The amount of butter fat obtained by this method is probably going to
                                  be quite limited compared to just making butter the normal way.

                                  It's a puzzling recipe. Heh. Aren't they all?


                                  Aelianora
                                • Rikke D. Giles
                                  ... I keep coming up against the reason why too. It s easy to just take the skimmed butterfat from the milk and use that, if one wants a soft, malleable
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                                    On 09/14/2012 09:07:35 AM, Lisa Mohr wrote:
                                    > I've been thinking about this as well, and wonder if the idea is not
                                    > to make 'butter' per se but to get a soft, malleable milkfat product
                                    > that one can use in making pastry.  Fresh cheeses are often high in
                                    > fat and this looks like it would extract that pretty effectively.
                                    >  
                                    > Again, why comes to mind.  My only conclusion so far is that this
                                    > might be something you would do if you had only fresh cheese, and no
                                    > butter handy.

                                    I keep coming up against the reason why too. It's easy to just take
                                    the skimmed butterfat from the milk and use that, if one wants a soft,
                                    malleable milkfat product. So far the most sensible reason is that one
                                    only has fresh cheese, and one needs butterfat from it NOW, like you
                                    suggested! Heh.

                                    This can't be, to my mind, a 'fresh' version of a cheese like parmesan
                                    or it's variants. Those are made with skimmed milk. Indeed, the
                                    modern version is more skimmed than I can do by hand, although that
                                    might also be a result of goat versus cow milk. Anyway, there's not
                                    much fat at all left in the cheese.

                                    It could perhaps be a Romano type cheese. Those do have fat left in
                                    the milk, in fact there's enough fat seeping from the cheese after it's
                                    made to make a rind without adding olive oil! It's only after a period
                                    of aging that the olive oil is needed.

                                    A fresh cheese, simply made with full fat milk, or even hand skimmed
                                    milk, would have some fat left in it...

                                    Another thought just occurred. If a cheese is starting to blow, and
                                    you can often tell while making it if it's going to blow early, maybe
                                    this is a way to save something good from it? I note the recipe
                                    doesn't mention anything like that, however.

                                    Anyway, probably the only way to figure anything out is to make the
                                    recipe. I am naturally reluctant to take cheeses that require hours of
                                    making and mash them back into oblivion (like a fresh parmesan). But
                                    perhaps starting with a lower time commitment cheese like a chevre or a
                                    variant would be ok.

                                    Aelianora
                                  • Wendi Dunlap
                                    ... [Ears perking up] [delurking] Did someone mention almond cheese? That was my latest project, but from other sources:
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Sep 14, 2012
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                                      Raphaella DiContini wrote:
                                      > This manuscript is from northern Italy- specifically Venice, although
                                      > some of the recipes are also seen in other manuscripts across Europe. I
                                      > do find it interesting that there is another "butter alternate" recipe
                                      > in this book for lent, and it comes directly after "butter of fresh
                                      > cheese".

                                      > Here is my interpretation with photos:
                                      > http://allvenicechannel.dreamwidth.org/4843.html

                                      [Ears perking up]

                                      [delurking]

                                      Did someone mention almond cheese? That was my latest project, but from
                                      other sources:
                                      http://slumberland.org/sca/articles/almond_cheese.pdf

                                      Looks like yours came out pretty much exactly the same. Very cool.

                                      W


                                      --
                                      \-\ Wenyeva atte grene * "In tenebris lux" * pronounced WEN-yuh-vuh
                                      \-\ Armorum Servula, quam Ancoram Caeruleam dicunt
                                      \-\ Per chevron argent and vert, three beacons counterchanged.
                                    • Mandy
                                      Coolness... I missed a lot of this conversation but it encouraged me to dig up my old 2007 Northern Lights (EK event) entry documents... not the final copy
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Sep 17, 2012
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                                        Coolness...
                                        I missed a lot of this conversation but it encouraged me to dig up my old 2007 Northern Lights (EK event) entry documents... not the final copy with the pretty cover page and stuff but it's pretty much what I did for almond butter (some of which was really more like a cheese).
                                        https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0WLvLylhvfUb1V3TUlyOHVENjg

                                        stuff is pretty tasty, though have not made it much since

                                        Mandy
                                        (SCA: Mergriet van Wijenhorst)

                                        >
                                        > > Here is my interpretation with photos:
                                        > > http://allvenicechannel.dreamwidth.org/4843.html
                                        >
                                        > [Ears perking up]
                                        >
                                        > [delurking]
                                        >
                                        > Did someone mention almond cheese? That was my latest project, but from
                                        > other sources:
                                        > http://slumberland.org/sca/articles/almond_cheese.pdf
                                        >
                                        > Looks like yours came out pretty much exactly the same. Very cool.
                                        >
                                        > W
                                        >
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