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Re: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] Re: Jouhikko Question

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  • michael king
    I was roughing the nylon in an attempt to get the line to hold more rosin, plucked lyre strings do not require it...Very interested to hear more about your
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      I was roughing the nylon in an attempt to get the line to hold more rosin, plucked lyre strings do not require it...
      Very interested to hear more about your experiments!





      --- On Sat, 1/10/11, Craig Fischer <irrotational@...> wrote:

      From: Craig Fischer <irrotational@...>
      Subject: Re: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] Re: Jouhikko Question
      To: Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, 1 October, 2011, 6:55

       

      Hi Michael,

      are you roughing the nylon for the bowing, or for some other reason?

      Since it easy to do I just bought some of the 4lb FC line and made up
      a string of 24 filaments. I didn't do any roughing. Obviously it
      wouldn't tune the same as 20 8lb filaments but it was enough for an
      experiment.

      The thin stuff is fiddly to work with but you can use a dab of
      supaglue or a touch of heat to hold an end together while you thread
      it through holes and tie it off. I put it on my Jouhikko as a third
      string and it felt good to bow and pluck when tuned to around G392 an
      octave above the second string. (It's an interesting tuning)

      Plugging the numbers into the old string formula indicates that it is
      running at around 12lb or 55N tension, maybe at around 12% of the
      theoretical breaking point. To compare, 12lb would be typical tension
      for a violin A at 440Hz.

      At a rough guess I would need 48 filaments of 4lb to have the same
      tuning as 20 filaments of the 8lb line. Now for some more experiments!

      Craig

      Quoting michaeljking2007 <michaeljking2007@...>:

      >
      > You may still need to rough each strand of the fishing line (240
      > grit)in order for the rosin to hold(on the bowed lyre you rosin both
      > the strings and the bow)... not sure how the thin fc strand will
      > take to this but give it a go, unlike hair its unlikely to break,
      > I have used black nylon fishing line myself, happier with its
      > plucked sound to be honest but it gets around the humidity issue.
      >
      >
      > The form of the Jouhikko, see here for the variations:
      > http:www.siba.fi/jouhikko
      > .. seems decorative rather than practical...the older ones were
      > often straight.... but as for playing them like a Nyckelharpa, why
      > not! that player carved in stone in Trondheim cathedral is playing
      > that way.
      >
      > Michael
      >
      > --- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, Craig Fischer
      > <irrotational@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Hi Larry,
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> many of the old ones I have seen in museum photos do have some sort of
      >> cutaway, even a vestigial one so it makes me suspicious. It could be a
      >> relic of some previous useage.
      >>
      >> I'm aware of the various stringing options but I notice that even the
      >> Finns use multifilament nylon at times since it is relatively stable.
      >> You're probably better off avoiding using bow hair from a fiddle shop,
      >> the white kind, since it nearly always bleached and bleached hair has
      >> lengthways micro-cracks in it.
      >>
      >> Maybe dusting the nylon with powdered resin would help? I have a
      >> couple of cheap bows here in the bow pile with plastic hair in them
      >> and that might be good multifilament string material too since it is
      >> already roughened.
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> Craig.
      >>
      >>
      >> Quoting LM <lavransrm@...>:
      >>
      >> > Here are some pix.
      >> >
      >> > AS for strings, the original idea is to make strings by twisting hoesre
      >> > hair, which is readily avaalable from violin shops. The next
      >> best solution
      >> > I found is to use gut, in my case "fret gut" which is a little
      >> rougher. As
      >> > for nylon, you could try nylgut or even classical guitar strings.
      >> >
      >> > There are instructions on how to make horsehair strings on line
      >> and on this
      >> > list; if you want gut, then you should determine the note you
      >> want (ie A D
      >> > g) and the vibrating length. Then you can order from any source of gut
      >> > strings (Boston Catlines can do this for you).
      >> >
      >> > Hope this helps-
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > Larry M
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:50 AM, LM <lavransrm@...> wrote:
      >> >
      >> >> The cut away you circle appears to be for decorative purposes and has
      >> >> little to do with how you hold or bow the instrument. If you do
      >> a search for
      >> >> images, you can find many many pix of people playing it.
      >> >>
      >> >> Larry M
      >> >>
      >> >> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Craig Fischer <
      >> >> irrotational@...> wrote:
      >> >>
      >> >>> **
      >> >>>
      >> >>> [Attachment(s) <#132b0bb42c4f80e0_132b06ec1ee31d0a_TopText> from Craig
      >> >>> Fischer included below]
      >> >>>
      >> >>> Hello,
      >> >>>
      >> >>> I am struggling to play the jouhikko at the moment. Struggling to hold
      >> >>> it, struggling to finger it etc. etc. However, I was wondering if
      >> >>> anyone knows what the original purpose of the cutaway on the side of
      >> >>> the peg head is? I mean the part next to the first string, circled in
      >> >>> the attachment below.
      >> >>>
      >> >>> I find it _can_ be used to rest against the left leg with the jouhikko
      >> >>> held horizontally across the lap and bowed vertically, or if the
      >> >>> cutaway rests against the left side of leg then the other end of the
      >> >>> jouhikko can end up in the middle of the chest and be bowed like a
      >> >>> nyckelharpa. This is idle speculation although I find both holds
      >> >>> easier for bowing and for fingering than the usual vertical one!
      >> >>>
      >> >>> I read of 0.25mm 8lb fishing line being used for strings - there are
      >> >>> several ebay vendors selling 0.16mm 4lb fluorocarbon at reasonable
      >> >>> prices atm eg
      >> >>>
      >> >>>
      >> >>>
      >> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SEAGUAR-CARBON-PRO-4-LB-200-YD-FLUOROCARBON-LINE-
      >> >>> NEW-/290607106905?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9888b59
      >> >>>
      >> >>> Craig.
      >> >>>
      >> >>>
      >> >>
      >> >>
      >> >
      >>
      >
      >
      >

    • Craig Fischer
      Hi Michael, the really fine 4lb fc doesn t seem to need roughing in order to bow well, it gets rough just from being bowed. I will probably try 000 steel wool
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Michael,


        the really fine 4lb fc doesn't seem to need roughing in order to bow
        well, it gets rough just from being bowed. I will probably try 000
        steel wool rather than sandpaper if the need arises. After settling
        in, the 24 filament string works well at a lower pitch and tension,
        currently E330, ~9lb. I tested a 54 filament second string tuned to A
        but it didn't behave well, maybe too much internal damping?, so I have
        changed it for a 28 filament string of 8lb fc. The first string is 32f
        of the 4lb and that works very well, louder than the 24f third string.
        The scale length is 325mm btw.

        Before putting these on the instrument I dust them with rosin powder
        which makes them come together better. Also I find that tuning them
        very tight for a while settles them down faster eg at least a fifth
        higher than intended pitch. The fc has the same memory/creep behaviour
        as nylon does, when you tune the strings lower they get sharper for a
        while.


        Craig.

        Quoting michael king <michaeljking2007@...>:

        > I was roughing the nylon in an attempt to get the line to hold more
        > rosin, plucked lyre strings do not require it...Very interested to
        > hear more about your experiments!
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- On Sat, 1/10/11, Craig Fischer <irrotational@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: Craig Fischer <irrotational@...>
        > Subject: Re: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] Re: Jouhikko Question
        > To: Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Saturday, 1 October, 2011, 6:55
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Michael,
        >
        >
        >
        > are you roughing the nylon for the bowing, or for some other reason?
        >
        >
        >
        > Since it easy to do I just bought some of the 4lb FC line and made up
        >
        > a string of 24 filaments. I didn't do any roughing. Obviously it
        >
        > wouldn't tune the same as 20 8lb filaments but it was enough for an
        >
        > experiment.
        >
        >
        >
        > The thin stuff is fiddly to work with but you can use a dab of
        >
        > supaglue or a touch of heat to hold an end together while you thread
        >
        > it through holes and tie it off. I put it on my Jouhikko as a third
        >
        > string and it felt good to bow and pluck when tuned to around G392 an
        >
        > octave above the second string. (It's an interesting tuning)
        >
        >
        >
        > Plugging the numbers into the old string formula indicates that it is
        >
        > running at around 12lb or 55N tension, maybe at around 12% of the
        >
        > theoretical breaking point. To compare, 12lb would be typical tension
        >
        > for a violin A at 440Hz.
        >
        >
        >
        > At a rough guess I would need 48 filaments of 4lb to have the same
        >
        > tuning as 20 filaments of the 8lb line. Now for some more experiments!
        >
        >
        >
        > Craig
        >
        >
        >
        > Quoting michaeljking2007 <michaeljking2007@...>:
        >
        >
        >
        >>
        >
        >> You may still need to rough each strand of the fishing line (240
        >
        >> grit)in order for the rosin to hold(on the bowed lyre you rosin both
        >
        >> the strings and the bow)... not sure how the thin fc strand will
        >
        >> take to this but give it a go, unlike hair its unlikely to break,
        >
        >> I have used black nylon fishing line myself, happier with its
        >
        >> plucked sound to be honest but it gets around the humidity issue.
        >
        >>
        >
        >>
        >
        >> The form of the Jouhikko, see here for the variations:
        >
        >> http:www.siba.fi/jouhikko
        >
        >> .. seems decorative rather than practical...the older ones were
        >
        >> often straight.... but as for playing them like a Nyckelharpa, why
        >
        >> not! that player carved in stone in Trondheim cathedral is playing
        >
        >> that way.
        >
        >>
        >
        >> Michael
        >
        >>
        >
        >> --- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, Craig Fischer
        >
        >> <irrotational@...> wrote:
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>> Hi Larry,
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>> many of the old ones I have seen in museum photos do have some sort of
        >
        >>> cutaway, even a vestigial one so it makes me suspicious. It could be a
        >
        >>> relic of some previous useage.
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>> I'm aware of the various stringing options but I notice that even the
        >
        >>> Finns use multifilament nylon at times since it is relatively stable.
        >
        >>> You're probably better off avoiding using bow hair from a fiddle shop,
        >
        >>> the white kind, since it nearly always bleached and bleached hair has
        >
        >>> lengthways micro-cracks in it.
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>> Maybe dusting the nylon with powdered resin would help? I have a
        >
        >>> couple of cheap bows here in the bow pile with plastic hair in them
        >
        >>> and that might be good multifilament string material too since it is
        >
        >>> already roughened.
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>> Craig.
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>> Quoting LM <lavransrm@...>:
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>> > Here are some pix.
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> > AS for strings, the original idea is to make strings by twisting hoesre
        >
        >>> > hair, which is readily avaalable from violin shops. The next
        >
        >>> best solution
        >
        >>> > I found is to use gut, in my case "fret gut" which is a little
        >
        >>> rougher. As
        >
        >>> > for nylon, you could try nylgut or even classical guitar strings.
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> > There are instructions on how to make horsehair strings on line
        >
        >>> and on this
        >
        >>> > list; if you want gut, then you should determine the note you
        >
        >>> want (ie A D
        >
        >>> > g) and the vibrating length. Then you can order from any source of gut
        >
        >>> > strings (Boston Catlines can do this for you).
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> > Hope this helps-
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> > Larry M
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:50 AM, LM <lavransrm@...> wrote:
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>> >> The cut away you circle appears to be for decorative purposes and has
        >
        >>> >> little to do with how you hold or bow the instrument. If you do
        >
        >>> a search for
        >
        >>> >> images, you can find many many pix of people playing it.
        >
        >>> >>
        >
        >>> >> Larry M
        >
        >>> >>
        >
        >>> >> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Craig Fischer <
        >
        >>> >> irrotational@...> wrote:
        >
        >>> >>
        >
        >>> >>> **
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>> [Attachment(s) <#132b0bb42c4f80e0_132b06ec1ee31d0a_TopText> from Craig
        >
        >>> >>> Fischer included below]
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>> Hello,
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>> I am struggling to play the jouhikko at the moment. Struggling to hold
        >
        >>> >>> it, struggling to finger it etc. etc. However, I was wondering if
        >
        >>> >>> anyone knows what the original purpose of the cutaway on the side of
        >
        >>> >>> the peg head is? I mean the part next to the first string, circled in
        >
        >>> >>> the attachment below.
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>> I find it _can_ be used to rest against the left leg with the jouhikko
        >
        >>> >>> held horizontally across the lap and bowed vertically, or if the
        >
        >>> >>> cutaway rests against the left side of leg then the other end of the
        >
        >>> >>> jouhikko can end up in the middle of the chest and be bowed like a
        >
        >>> >>> nyckelharpa. This is idle speculation although I find both holds
        >
        >>> >>> easier for bowing and for fingering than the usual vertical one!
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>> I read of 0.25mm 8lb fishing line being used for strings - there are
        >
        >>> >>> several ebay vendors selling 0.16mm 4lb fluorocarbon at reasonable
        >
        >>> >>> prices atm eg
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SEAGUAR-CARBON-PRO-4-LB-200-YD-FLUOROCARBON-LINE-
        >
        >>> >>> NEW-/290607106905?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9888b59
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>> Craig.
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>>
        >
        >>> >>
        >
        >>> >>
        >
        >>> >
        >
        >>>
        >
        >>
        >
        >>
        >
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Craig Fischer
        Hi, I now have some good strings made from the .16 mm 4lb fluorocarbon which give a pleasant and smooth buzz and bow well. I can t speak for horsehair but it
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 5, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi,


          I now have some good strings made from the .16 mm 4lb fluorocarbon
          which give a pleasant and smooth buzz and bow well. I can't speak for
          horsehair but it turns out that the best strings I can make from FC
          are high twist catlines. They turn out a little shorter than ordinary
          twisted strings, they feel less stiff, the linear density is higher
          and they take a little more peg turning to come up to pitch which is
          also a useful feature.


          Currently I have my Jouhikko tuned to 1)E 2)B 3)F# and the strings are

          1) 32 strands of 4lB, non catline
          2) 50 strands of 4lB, two cord catline
          3) 30 strands of 4lB, two cord catline


          It is hard to describe how to make them clearly in words so I will
          take some pictures tonight and post them.

          Craig.




          Quoting Craig Fischer <irrotational@...>:

          > Hi Michael,
          >
          >
          > the really fine 4lb fc doesn't seem to need roughing in order to bow
          > well, it gets rough just from being bowed. I will probably try 000
          > steel wool rather than sandpaper if the need arises. After settling
          > in, the 24 filament string works well at a lower pitch and tension,
          > currently E330, ~9lb. I tested a 54 filament second string tuned to A
          > but it didn't behave well, maybe too much internal damping?, so I have
          > changed it for a 28 filament string of 8lb fc. The first string is 32f
          > of the 4lb and that works very well, louder than the 24f third string.
          > The scale length is 325mm btw.
          >
          > Before putting these on the instrument I dust them with rosin powder
          > which makes them come together better. Also I find that tuning them
          > very tight for a while settles them down faster eg at least a fifth
          > higher than intended pitch. The fc has the same memory/creep behaviour
          > as nylon does, when you tune the strings lower they get sharper for a
          > while.
          >
          >
          > Craig.
          >
          > Quoting michael king <michaeljking2007@...>:
          >
          >> I was roughing the nylon in an attempt to get the line to hold more
          >> rosin, plucked lyre strings do not require it...Very interested to
          >> hear more about your experiments!
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> --- On Sat, 1/10/11, Craig Fischer <irrotational@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> From: Craig Fischer <irrotational@...>
          >> Subject: Re: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] Re: Jouhikko Question
          >> To: Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com
          >> Date: Saturday, 1 October, 2011, 6:55
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>  
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Hi Michael,
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> are you roughing the nylon for the bowing, or for some other reason?
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Since it easy to do I just bought some of the 4lb FC line and made up
          >>
          >> a string of 24 filaments. I didn't do any roughing. Obviously it
          >>
          >> wouldn't tune the same as 20 8lb filaments but it was enough for an
          >>
          >> experiment.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> The thin stuff is fiddly to work with but you can use a dab of
          >>
          >> supaglue or a touch of heat to hold an end together while you thread
          >>
          >> it through holes and tie it off. I put it on my Jouhikko as a third
          >>
          >> string and it felt good to bow and pluck when tuned to around G392 an
          >>
          >> octave above the second string. (It's an interesting tuning)
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Plugging the numbers into the old string formula indicates that it is
          >>
          >> running at around 12lb or 55N tension, maybe at around 12% of the
          >>
          >> theoretical breaking point. To compare, 12lb would be typical tension
          >>
          >> for a violin A at 440Hz.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> At a rough guess I would need 48 filaments of 4lb to have the same
          >>
          >> tuning as 20 filaments of the 8lb line. Now for some more experiments!
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Craig
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Quoting michaeljking2007 <michaeljking2007@...>:
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>>
          >>
          >>> You may still need to rough each strand of the fishing line (240
          >>
          >>> grit)in order for the rosin to hold(on the bowed lyre you rosin both
          >>
          >>> the strings and the bow)... not sure how the thin fc strand will
          >>
          >>> take to this but give it a go, unlike hair its unlikely to break,
          >>
          >>> I have used black nylon fishing line myself, happier with its
          >>
          >>> plucked sound to be honest but it gets around the humidity issue.
          >>
          >>>
          >>
          >>>
          >>
          >>> The form of the Jouhikko, see here for the variations:
          >>
          >>> http:www.siba.fi/jouhikko
          >>
          >>> .. seems decorative rather than practical...the older ones were
          >>
          >>> often straight.... but as for playing them like a Nyckelharpa, why
          >>
          >>> not! that player carved in stone in Trondheim cathedral is playing
          >>
          >>> that way.
          >>
          >>>
          >>
          >>> Michael
          >>
          >>>
          >>
          >>> --- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, Craig Fischer
          >>
          >>> <irrotational@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>> Hi Larry,
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>> many of the old ones I have seen in museum photos do have some sort of
          >>
          >>>> cutaway, even a vestigial one so it makes me suspicious. It could be a
          >>
          >>>> relic of some previous useage.
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>> I'm aware of the various stringing options but I notice that even the
          >>
          >>>> Finns use multifilament nylon at times since it is relatively stable.
          >>
          >>>> You're probably better off avoiding using bow hair from a fiddle shop,
          >>
          >>>> the white kind, since it nearly always bleached and bleached hair has
          >>
          >>>> lengthways micro-cracks in it.
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>> Maybe dusting the nylon with powdered resin would help? I have a
          >>
          >>>> couple of cheap bows here in the bow pile with plastic hair in them
          >>
          >>>> and that might be good multifilament string material too since it is
          >>
          >>>> already roughened.
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>> Craig.
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>> Quoting LM <lavransrm@...>:
          >>
          >>>>
          >>
          >>>> > Here are some pix.
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> > AS for strings, the original idea is to make strings by twisting hoesre
          >>
          >>>> > hair, which is readily avaalable from violin shops. The next
          >>
          >>>> best solution
          >>
          >>>> > I found is to use gut, in my case "fret gut" which is a little
          >>
          >>>> rougher. As
          >>
          >>>> > for nylon, you could try nylgut or even classical guitar strings.
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> > There are instructions on how to make horsehair strings on line
          >>
          >>>> and on this
          >>
          >>>> > list; if you want gut, then you should determine the note you
          >>
          >>>> want (ie A D
          >>
          >>>> > g) and the vibrating length. Then you can order from any source of gut
          >>
          >>>> > strings (Boston Catlines can do this for you).
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> > Hope this helps-
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> > Larry M
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> > On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 11:50 AM, LM <lavransrm@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>>> >
          >>
          >>>> >> The cut away you circle appears to be for decorative purposes and has
          >>
          >>>> >> little to do with how you hold or bow the instrument. If you do
          >>
          >>>> a search for
          >>
          >>>> >> images, you can find many many pix of people playing it.
          >>
          >>>> >>
          >>
          >>>> >> Larry M
          >>
          >>>> >>
          >>
          >>>> >> On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 10:27 AM, Craig Fischer <
          >>
          >>>> >> irrotational@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>>> >>
          >>
          >>>> >>> **
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> >>> [Attachment(s) <#132b0bb42c4f80e0_132b06ec1ee31d0a_TopText>
          >>>> from Craig
          >>
          >>>> >>> Fischer included below]
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> >>> Hello,
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> >>> I am struggling to play the jouhikko at the moment. Struggling to hold
          >>
          >>>> >>> it, struggling to finger it etc. etc. However, I was wondering if
          >>
          >>>> >>> anyone knows what the original purpose of the cutaway on the side of
          >>
          >>>> >>> the peg head is? I mean the part next to the first string, circled in
          >>
          >>>> >>> the attachment below.
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> >>> I find it _can_ be used to rest against the left leg with the jouhikko
          >>
          >>>> >>> held horizontally across the lap and bowed vertically, or if the
          >>
          >>>> >>> cutaway rests against the left side of leg then the other end of the
          >>
          >>>> >>> jouhikko can end up in the middle of the chest and be bowed like a
          >>
          >>>> >>> nyckelharpa. This is idle speculation although I find both holds
          >>
          >>>> >>> easier for bowing and for fingering than the usual vertical one!
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> >>> I read of 0.25mm 8lb fishing line being used for strings - there are
          >>
          >>>> >>> several ebay vendors selling 0.16mm 4lb fluorocarbon at reasonable
          >>
          >>>> >>> prices atm eg
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/SEAGUAR-CARBON-PRO-4-LB-200-YD-FLUOROCARBON-LINE-
          >>
          >>>> >>> NEW-/290607106905?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a9888b59
          >>
          >>>> >>>
          >>
          >>>> >>> Craig.
          >>
          >>>> >>>
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          >>>> >>>
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          >>>> >>
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          >>>> >>
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          >>>> >
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          >>>>
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          >>>
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          >>>
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          >
          >
          >
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