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Re: Lyre Article

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  • Tim Caldwell
    ... wrote: Hi Jan, Thanks for that, sounds like the more detailed version might be worth chasing up. I thought there were some interesting details about the
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 1 7:03 AM
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      --- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, "jan4ellen" <jan4ellen@...>
      wrote:


      Hi Jan,

      Thanks for that, sounds like the more detailed version might be worth
      chasing up.

      I thought there were some interesting details about the Oberflacht
      lyres, and the way they both -in different ways- made the yoke less
      fragile. The one from grave 84 is reminiscent of the Anglo-Saxon
      lyres in that it had a yoke that was made separately and slotted into
      the arms of the lyre (although maybe attached in a slightly different
      way to the methods attested in England, and without escutcheons); and
      the lyre from grave 31 appears to have had its yoke and body carved
      from a single piece but with a separate facing placed over the top of
      the yoke with the grain running perpendicular.

      Considering that there's also evidence from England of rivets driven
      through a yoke (Prittlewell), and of bone or horn facings placed over
      the yokes (Abingdon and Taplow), it seems that the yoke was
      considered to be a particularly fragile and troublesome part of the
      lyre's design!

      Cheers,
      Tim









      > Thanks Tim,
      >
      > Interesting, it is an on-line version of the Grove Dictionary of
      Music and Musicians but I
      > can find no date stamps or other publication information. The host
      site is Russian, very
      > interesting. (and a bit dodgy)
      >
      > There is a longer version of this article in the 2001, 2nd edition
      and the content is
      > available as part of www.oxfordmusiconline.com, unfortunately a
      subscription service, but
      > a good reason to attach oneself to a university if only through
      occasional courses.
      > Libraries usually have it too.
      >
      > It took me a few tries to find the publication date of the latest
      edition but then I should
      > have thought to go to the British Library site first.
      >
      > All of which is a long way round to say that the article in Grove
      was written a good while
      > before the Trossingen or Prittlewell were found. And who says
      archaeology isn't a fast
      > paced pursuit!
      >
      > I wasn't able to find what Myrtle Bruce-Mitford is currently
      occupied with, does anyone
      > know? She worked with her father, Bruce, on the original and
      revised analysis of the
      > Sutton Hoo find. He died in 1994. So I can't tell exactly if the
      article was updated for the
      > 2001 edition.
      >
      > (forgive all the detail but I'm working on an MA in this and
      my 'thoroughness mode' is
      > stuck in the 'ON' position)
      >
      > Cheers!
      > je
      >
      > --- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Caldwell"
      <vikingtimbo650@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi all,
      > >
      > > I found an article about germanic lyres that's worth reading. It
      > > doesn't make reference to the recent finds from Prittlewell and
      > > Trossingen unfortunately, but it gives lots of basic information
      about
      > > germanic lyres in general, and many facts about individual ones:
      > >
      > > http://phonoarchive.org/grove/Entries/S23943.htm
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > > Tim
      > >
      >
    • Tim Caldwell
      Hi all, I found a pdf file showing and discussing what might very well be four Anglo-Saxon tuning pegs made of bone. They re from Whitby in northern England,
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 1 8:10 AM
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        Hi all,

        I found a pdf file showing and discussing what might very well be
        four Anglo-Saxon tuning pegs made of bone. They're from Whitby in
        northern England, but not securely dated.

        They would all have been inserted from the back of the yoke as on the
        lyre from Trossingen. They're all designed to be turned with a tuning
        key. Like the pegs from Trossingen they're all a little different
        from one another. It seems that both holes and slots could be used to
        fasten the string.

        Pretty exciting! But why aren't they better known? Have they been
        more recently identified as being something else? Anyway, enjoy:

        http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-
        1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol20/20_137_139.pdf

        Cheers,
        Tim
      • Charles Anderson
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 1 11:10 AM
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          <http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol20/20_137_139.pdf>

          Tim Caldwell wrote:

          >Hi all,
          >
          >I found a pdf file showing and discussing what might very well be
          >four Anglo-Saxon tuning pegs made of bone. They're from Whitby in
          >northern England, but not securely dated.
          >
          >They would all have been inserted from the back of the yoke as on the
          >lyre from Trossingen. They're all designed to be turned with a tuning
          >key. Like the pegs from Trossingen they're all a little different
          >from one another. It seems that both holes and slots could be used to
          >fasten the string.
          >
          >Pretty exciting! But why aren't they better known? Have they been
          >more recently identified as being something else? Anyway, enjoy:
          >
          >http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-769-1/ahds/dissemination/pdf/vol20/20_137_139.pdf
          >
          >Cheers,
          >Tim
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Scot Eddy
          Friends,   Does anyone know if this setup works well?  
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 1 9:36 PM
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          • Charles Anderson
            Yep it would work depending on the power of the drill and what you are cutting. If you want to just make tuning pegs then you can just use a drill held
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 1 11:10 PM
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              Yep it would work depending on the power of the drill and what you are cutting.

              If you want to just make tuning pegs then you can just use a drill held securely in a vice.

              Mind you if you want to do large items and you don't have room then this is not a too bad option.  However I bought a wood lathe for about $120, I just needed to make a trestle table for it.



              Regards Charles from Oz

              Scot Eddy wrote:

              Friends,

               

              Does anyone know if this setup works well?

               

              http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD399?ie=UTF8&tag=dugnorth-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B0000DD399

               

              Scot


            • michael king
              Hello Scot, With slight embarrassment, I have to confess that I use a similar setup, it was originally to save space when I downsized my workshop after I sold
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 1 11:33 PM
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                Hello Scot,
                With slight embarrassment, I have to confess that I use a similar setup, it was originally to save space when I downsized my workshop after I sold my lovely Record Power lathe , well this was 4 years ago and now I only use a drill powered lather for my pegs, which i makein a batch several times a year.  For my recent Bowed Lyres I whittled the lot instead so it isnt absolutely necessary if you have a reamer and peg cutter.

                This kind of lathe is not the ideal situation for most people, but getting out the lathe which I have attached to a piece of composite board and clamping it to my workbench for roughing out my peg blanks

                I have worn out a drill using it to turn some wooden "willow Flutes" I was experimenting with.    I think a powerful variable speed one is best.

                There are other "mini" lathes out there, but for as much money as a good beginner lathe.


                MIchael J King

                --- On Mon, 2/6/08, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
                From: Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...>
                Subject: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] drill powered mini lathe?
                To: Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, 2 June, 2008, 5:36 AM



                Sent from Yahoo! Mail.
                A Smarter Email.
              • LM
                It seems like a lot to spend as much as $200 on a bench-top mini-lathe just to turn pegs, especially if you re a hobbyist. However, I ve gotten into turning
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 2 6:14 AM
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                  It seems like a lot to spend as much as $200 on a bench-top "mini-lathe" just to
                  turn pegs, especially if you're a hobbyist. However,
                  I've gotten into turning pens, playing pieces for hnefetafl and other little
                  goodies, so my Jet minilathe turned out to be a good investment.

                  There are other cheaper smaller mini-lathe, but less isn't more- it's less. I
                  initially bought a very small Craftsman, but it was obviously pretty useless;
                  Sears item# 00922106000 Mfr. model# 22106- $179. For about that same amount,
                  you can get a real lathe that's a much better deal.

                  Larry M

                  Charles Anderson wrote:
                  > Yep it would work depending on the power of the drill and what you are
                  > cutting.
                  >
                  > If you want to just make tuning pegs then you can just use a drill held
                  > securely in a vice.
                  >
                  > Mind you if you want to do large items and you don't have room then this
                  > is not a too bad option. However I bought a wood lathe for about $120,
                  > I just needed to make a trestle table for it.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Regards Charles from Oz
                  >
                  > Scot Eddy wrote:
                  >
                  >> Friends,
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Does anyone know if this setup works well?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD399?ie=UTF8&tag=dugnorth-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B0000DD399
                  >> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD399?ie=UTF8&tag=dugnorth-20&link_code=as3&camp=211189&creative=373489&creativeASIN=B0000DD399>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Scot
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                • Charles Anderson
                  Larry, you ve hit the nail on the head. The cost of a tool is proportional to the quantity of what you are making. Regards Charles from Oz P.S. I recently
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 2 6:49 AM
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                    Larry, you've hit the nail on the head.

                    The cost of a tool is proportional to the quantity of what you are making.


                    Regards Charles from Oz
                    P.S. I recently bought a nail gun to streamline the making of rodent
                    hutches (I have guinea pigs), got sick of screwing every piece together,
                    and am working on a flat pack model.

                    LM wrote:

                    >It seems like a lot to spend as much as $200 on a bench-top "mini-lathe" just to
                    >turn pegs, especially if you're a hobbyist. However,
                    >I've gotten into turning pens, playing pieces for hnefetafl and other little
                    >goodies, so my Jet minilathe turned out to be a good investment.
                    >
                    >There are other cheaper smaller mini-lathe, but less isn't more- it's less. I
                    >initially bought a very small Craftsman, but it was obviously pretty useless;
                    >Sears item# 00922106000 Mfr. model# 22106- $179. For about that same amount,
                    >you can get a real lathe that's a much better deal.
                    >
                    >Larry M
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Scot Eddy
                    I thought the article was quite interesting. It brings me to the next logical question... what bone(s) from what animal(s) were these pegs made from? or What
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 3 1:50 PM
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                      I thought the article was quite interesting. It brings me to the next logical question...
                      what bone(s) from what animal(s) were these pegs made from? or What would be the best choice assuming that we can't always tell which bones from which animals are used?

                      Thanks.

                      Scot Eddy

                    • Dee Thompson
                      ... My first thought would be either cow or stag, with horse being a close third. Cows, stags and horses tend to have heavier, denser, and thicker bones. They
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 3 2:11 PM
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                        --- Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:

                        > I thought the article was quite interesting. It
                        > brings me to the next logical question...
                        > what bone(s) from what animal(s) were these pegs
                        > made from? or What would be the best choice assuming
                        > that we can't always tell which bones from which
                        > animals are used?
                        >
                        > Thanks.
                        >
                        > Scot Eddy
                        >


                        My first thought would be either cow or stag, with
                        horse being a close third.
                        Cows, stags and horses tend to have heavier, denser,
                        and thicker bones. They would probably stand up to
                        the tension better. I place horse bone third because
                        they were pretty valuable creatures, and not really
                        something that one would kill intentionally. However,
                        if one were to die of natural causes, that's another
                        thing entirely.
                        Pig bones would be right out... They're soft, and they
                        splinter easily.
                        Dee

                        Even though the voices in my head aren't real, they have some great ideas.
                      • Kazimierz Verkmastare
                        The large bones of a cow can provide more than enough material for tuning pegs. You can get these bones from most butcher shops - and if you let meal worms or
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 3 2:34 PM
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                          The large bones of a cow can provide more than enough material for tuning pegs.  You can get these bones from most butcher shops - and if you let meal worms or better yet (don't get too grossed out - it really works) maggots to do your cleaning for you, you can get a lot of usable bone in a relative hurry.
                           
                          Beware of boiling bones to clean them - this can soften them and make the a bit plastic and flexible.  It is a property of heat and moisture, and it makes small but important changes in the structure of the bone that don't go away when it dries out.
                           
                          Once the worms do away with the majority of the organic material both on the outside of the bone and in the marrow chamber, cut the bone into pieces that will make the parts you want.  Using a power saw will be OK if you don't mind the smell, using a hand saw will still smell bad but not as bad as power tools.
                           
                          Put the bone pieces in the sun to finish drying - set them on something that will not get too hot, but put them in direct sunlight.  This will dry the remianing materials in a hurry, and will allow you to remove the residue by scraping.  Also the sunlight will bleach the bone a bit, and there is a bit of natural sterilization that happens.
                           
                          Some people swear by boiling bone in a low concentration vinegar-water mix to clean and sterilize it - this will work for that purpose, but the remaining bone will be more rubbery and less solid than you need for something like this.
                           
                          You can lathe turn bone, but it is relatively easy to shape bone with scraping tools by hand.
                           
                          I have built many things that use bone, antler, and horn.  I like working with all 3 materials, there is so much you can do with them, once you get past the preparation.
                           
                          Chris

                          *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                          On 6/3/2008 at 1:50 PM Scot Eddy wrote:

                          I thought the article was quite interesting. It brings me to the next logical question...
                          what bone(s) from what animal(s) were these pegs made from? or What would be the best choice assuming that we can't always tell which bones from which animals are used?

                          Thanks.

                          Scot Eddy

                        • Doug Saball
                          Very interesting topic:   In Collage I used meal worms to clean bones.  They can be purchased at bait shops or pet stores for about $3 for 50
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 3 4:05 PM
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                            Very interesting topic:

                             

                            In Collage I used meal worms to clean bones.  They can be purchased at bait shops or pet stores for about $3 for 50 (US).  To keep meal worms just place a layer of oatmeal in the bottom of a small aquarium and add a halved potato or apple.  The worms need moisture through the potato or apple.  They usually dig into the apple and you can harvest the worms to make more worm cultures.

                             

                            The adults are small 1/4 to 1/2 inch beetles that can also be placed in a container to expand a culture.  One can also expand a culture by taking some of the oatmeal dust (aster a month or so) and placing it into another container.  Once adults show up eggs are laid in the dust.  It is good to have a screen on the top of the aquarium so the adults don't fly or crawl out.

                             

                            I have had a meal worm culture for 18+ years to feed parrots, lizards, and use fishing.

                             

                            Because bones have rancid meat on it a cleaning tank should be in a barn or outside building.  In collage it was a closet far away from the student population.

                             

                            My $0.02

                             

                            Doug in Maine

                            --- On Tue, 6/3/08, Kazimierz Verkmastare <kaz@...> wrote:

                            From: Kazimierz Verkmastare <kaz@...>
                            Subject: Re: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] bone tuning pegs?
                            To: Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 5:34 PM

                            The large bones of a cow can provide more than enough material for tuning pegs.  You can get these bones from most butcher shops - and if you let meal worms or better yet (don't get too grossed out - it really works) maggots to do your cleaning for you, you can get a lot of usable bone in a relative hurry.
                             
                            Beware of boiling bones to clean them - this can soften them and make the a bit plastic and flexible.  It is a property of heat and moisture, and it makes small but important changes in the structure of the bone that don't go away when it dries out.
                             
                            Once the worms do away with the majority of the organic material both on the outside of the bone and in the marrow chamber, cut the bone into pieces that will make the parts you want.  Using a power saw will be OK if you don't mind the smell, using a hand saw will still smell bad but not as bad as power tools.
                             
                            Put the bone pieces in the sun to finish drying - set them on something that will not get too hot, but put them in direct sunlight.  This will dry the remianing materials in a hurry, and will allow you to remove the residue by scraping.  Also the sunlight will bleach the bone a bit, and there is a bit of natural sterilization that happens.
                             
                            Some people swear by boiling bone in a low concentration vinegar-water mix to clean and sterilize it - this will work for that purpose, but the remaining bone will be more rubbery and less solid than you need for something like this.
                             
                            You can lathe turn bone, but it is relatively easy to shape bone with scraping tools by hand.
                             
                            I have built many things that use bone, antler, and horn.  I like working with all 3 materials, there is so much you can do with them, once you get past the preparation.
                             
                            Chris

                            *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                            On 6/3/2008 at 1:50 PM Scot Eddy wrote:

                            I thought the article was quite interesting. It brings me to the next logical question...
                            what bone(s) from what animal(s) were these pegs made from? or What would be the best choice assuming that we can't always tell which bones from which animals are used?

                            Thanks.

                            Scot Eddy


                          • Charles Anderson
                            If it s Anglo Saxon it s most probably bovine. Regards Charles from Oz
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 3 4:17 PM
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                              If it's Anglo Saxon it's most probably bovine.


                              Regards Charles from Oz



                              Scot Eddy wrote:
                              I thought the article was quite interesting. It brings me to the next logical question...
                              what bone(s) from what animal(s) were these pegs made from? or What would be the best choice assuming that we can't always tell which bones from which animals are used?

                              Thanks.

                              Scot Eddy

                            • Charles Anderson
                              Hi Chris, I ve got a few ways to prepare bone. Method 1 : This method depends on where in the world you live, but if you happen to have an aggressive species
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 3 4:47 PM
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                                Hi Chris,

                                I've got a few ways to prepare bone.

                                Method 1 :  This method depends on where in the world you live, but if you happen to have an aggressive species of ant, throw the bone onto the ants nest and it will be picked clean in a day or two.

                                Method 2 :  Remove as much tissue from the bone as possible (the marrow can be used in a custard confection... trust me;-)).  Bones can be cut vertically by the butcher. A mixture of 50% bleach and 50% water is used in a bucket to soak the bone.  The bone will be clean and white after a day or two.  You then need to dispose of the bucket full of bleach, water and eeeeewie stuff.


                                Regards Charles from Oz

                                Kazimierz Verkmastare wrote:
                                The large bones of a cow can provide more than enough material for tuning pegs.  You can get these bones from most butcher shops - and if you let meal worms or better yet (don't get too grossed out - it really works) maggots to do your cleaning for you, you can get a lot of usable bone in a relative hurry.
                                 
                                Beware of boiling bones to clean them - this can soften them and make the a bit plastic and flexible.  It is a property of heat and moisture, and it makes small but important changes in the structure of the bone that don't go away when it dries out.
                                 
                                Once the worms do away with the majority of the organic material both on the outside of the bone and in the marrow chamber, cut the bone into pieces that will make the parts you want.  Using a power saw will be OK if you don't mind the smell, using a hand saw will still smell bad but not as bad as power tools.
                                 
                                Put the bone pieces in the sun to finish drying - set them on something that will not get too hot, but put them in direct sunlight.  This will dry the remianing materials in a hurry, and will allow you to remove the residue by scraping.  Also the sunlight will bleach the bone a bit, and there is a bit of natural sterilization that happens.
                                 
                                Some people swear by boiling bone in a low concentration vinegar-water mix to clean and sterilize it - this will work for that purpose, but the remaining bone will be more rubbery and less solid than you need for something like this.
                                 
                                You can lathe turn bone, but it is relatively easy to shape bone with scraping tools by hand.
                                 
                                I have built many things that use bone, antler, and horn.  I like working with all 3 materials, there is so much you can do with them, once you get past the preparation.
                                 
                                Chris_,___
                              • Scot Eddy
                                Cool, thanks everyone for the advice/info. What bone(s) do I ask for? Rib? Femur? Vertebrae? Thanks. Scot
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 3 5:30 PM
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                                  Cool, thanks everyone for the advice/info. What bone(s) do I ask for? Rib? Femur? Vertebrae?

                                  Thanks.

                                  Scot

                                  --- On Tue, 6/3/08, Kazimierz Verkmastare <kaz@...> wrote:

                                  > From: Kazimierz Verkmastare <kaz@...>
                                  > Subject: Re: [Anglo_Saxon_Lyres] bone tuning pegs?
                                  > To: Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2008, 4:34 PM
                                  > The large bones of a cow can provide more than enough
                                  > material for tuning pegs. You can get these bones from
                                  > most butcher shops - and if you let meal worms or better
                                  > yet (don't get too grossed out - it really works)
                                  > maggots to do your cleaning for you, you can get a lot of
                                  > usable bone in a relative hurry.
                                  >
                                • Charles Anderson
                                  Ask the butcher for dog bones, these are usually leg bones and are quite thick, plenty to play with. Just an aside if you want bone plates then ask for cow
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 3 5:37 PM
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                                    Ask the butcher for dog bones, these are usually leg bones and are quite
                                    thick, plenty to play with. Just an aside if you want bone plates then
                                    ask for cow jaw bones (mind you you get really strange looks).

                                    Regards Charles from Oz

                                    Scot Eddy wrote:

                                    >Cool, thanks everyone for the advice/info. What bone(s) do I ask for? Rib? Femur? Vertebrae?
                                    >
                                    >Thanks.
                                    >
                                    >Scot
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Krakatowa
                                    I have found that buying cattle bone from pet supply stores is perhaps the best source for clean dry bone. I used to carve in it quite a bit, and you can
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 3 8:23 PM
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                                      I have found that buying cattle bone from pet supply stores is perhaps
                                      the best source for clean dry bone. I used to carve in it quite a bit,
                                      and you can easily get two large plates per two dollar section. They
                                      polish quite nicely, and are fairly easy to work. The dust is real
                                      pain, so please wear a dust mask when working it.



                                      On Tue, Jun 3, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Scot Eddy <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:
                                      > I thought the article was quite interesting. It brings me to the next
                                      > logical question...
                                      > what bone(s) from what animal(s) were these pegs made from? or What would be
                                      > the best choice assuming that we can't always tell which bones from which
                                      > animals are used?
                                      >
                                      > Thanks.
                                      >
                                      > Scot Eddy
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Tim Caldwell
                                      ... wrote: Hi Scot, ... Yes, I was quite excited when I found it. It s not as if someone s discovered a whole new lyre or anything, it s
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 4 12:16 AM
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                                        --- In Anglo_Saxon_Lyres@yahoogroups.com, Scot Eddy
                                        <mister_eddy2003@...> wrote:


                                        Hi Scot,


                                        > I thought the article was quite interesting.


                                        Yes, I was quite excited when I found it. It's not as if someone's
                                        discovered a whole new lyre or anything, it's just that we know so
                                        little about the range of tuning pegs that were used.






                                        It brings me to the next logical question...
                                        > what bone(s) from what animal(s) were these pegs made from? or What
                                        would be the best choice assuming that we can't always tell which
                                        bones from which animals are used?



                                        I agree with everyone that cow bone is most likely, and that horse is
                                        also very possible. Horses were eaten by Anglo-Saxons and there's no
                                        particular reason why they shouldn't still be eaten today. But horse
                                        sacrifice and the ritual feasting that followed were an integral part
                                        of germanic pagan religion. Naturally the church frowned on these
                                        practices, and eating horse meat was banned.

                                        I think bone would be an excellent choice of material for tuning pegs
                                        because it's stronger than wood, and allows you to make thinner
                                        tuning pegs which will be easier to tune, and which probably place
                                        less stress on the lyre's yoke, which is obviously quite vulnerable
                                        to splitting.

                                        I thought it was interesting that the tuning pegs in the article
                                        showed clear signs of wear from the tuning key. The key used on them
                                        was presumably of a similar, or even harder material. Maybe horn
                                        (like the Scandinavian tuning key that's been found), or perhaps
                                        bronze.

                                        Cheers,
                                        Tim







                                        > Thanks.
                                        >
                                        > Scot Eddy
                                        >
                                      • Charles Anderson
                                        I believe that if you ate horse, in some circumstances in the 50 s, you might have issues. Bronze is nice to work with, although wood, bone and ivory pegs
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 4 1:00 AM
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                                          I believe that if you ate horse, in some circumstances in the 50's, you
                                          might have issues.

                                          Bronze is nice to work with, although wood, bone and ivory pegs would
                                          sound different.


                                          Regards Charles from Oz


                                          Tim Caldwell wrote:

                                          >I agree with everyone that cow bone is most likely, and that horse is
                                          >also very possible. Horses were eaten by Anglo-Saxons and there's no
                                          >particular reason why they shouldn't still be eaten today. But horse
                                          >sacrifice and the ritual feasting that followed were an integral part
                                          >of germanic pagan religion. Naturally the church frowned on these
                                          >practices, and eating horse meat was banned.
                                          >
                                          >I think bone would be an excellent choice of material for tuning pegs
                                          >because it's stronger than wood, and allows you to make thinner
                                          >tuning pegs which will be easier to tune, and which probably place
                                          >less stress on the lyre's yoke, which is obviously quite vulnerable
                                          >to splitting.
                                          >
                                          >I thought it was interesting that the tuning pegs in the article
                                          >showed clear signs of wear from the tuning key. The key used on them
                                          >was presumably of a similar, or even harder material. Maybe horn
                                          >(like the Scandinavian tuning key that's been found), or perhaps
                                          >bronze.
                                          >
                                        • Corwen, Ancient Instruments
                                          I would favour horse bone, its much stronger than cattle bone. I m sure there are early medieval descriptions of Welsh harps with horsehair strings, horseskin
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 4 2:47 AM
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                                            I would favour horse bone, its much stronger than
                                            cattle bone. I'm sure there are early medieval
                                            descriptions of Welsh harps with horsehair strings,
                                            horseskin soundboards and horse bone tuning pegs. When
                                            I made a Paule style lyre I used horseskin and
                                            horsehair like this and it made a nice instrument.
                                            I'll see if I can dig out the reference.

                                            I clean small or simple shaped bones with a very sharp
                                            knife, then a scalpel, and then scrub with wire wool
                                            of different grades (starting with a brillo pad). If
                                            you scrub under water its easy to see where there are
                                            bits of membrane still adhering. If you use long bones
                                            while they are fresh the marrow can be poked out with
                                            a stick and then the inside cleaned with a small
                                            bottle brush.

                                            A couple of days in 3% hydrogen peroxide solution
                                            (which you can buy from chemists as denture
                                            cleaner/mouthwash) whitens and sterilises them.

                                            Alternatively for intricate, large bones or lots of
                                            small ones find a largish container with a lid, punch
                                            holes in the bottom, or better still remove the
                                            bottom, fill it with FRESH horse manure and bury the
                                            bones in that. Sink it into bare soil so worms can
                                            find their way in. Keep it moist but not wet. The
                                            worms and nematodes will clean the bones, even into
                                            the sinuses of skulls, though it takes a few months
                                            and they need scrubbing with soap and then chemical
                                            whitening with peroxide to remove the yellowish tannin
                                            colour the manure leaves behind. Its quite an easy
                                            method though.

                                            Corwen


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