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patina went on holidays?

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  • viriato17
    Happy new year to all, this dagger is stylistically ok, but what happened to the patina? overcleaned or a modern repro?
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 2, 2006
      Happy new year to all,

      this dagger is stylistically ok, but what happened to the patina?
      overcleaned or a modern repro?

      http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-BEST-Persian-Amlash-Sword-800BC-N-
      RES_W0QQitemZ7379156859QQcategoryZ73464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie
      wItem
      http://tinyurl.com/cd7q9

      Best regards
      D.Macias
    • Antonio Frutuoso de Melo
      Happy new year to all! Dear Diego, I believe the patina (old or new.) has likely been cleaned. My point with this short sword is more the colour of the metal
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 2, 2006
        Happy new year to all!



        Dear Diego,

        I believe the patina (old or new.) has likely been cleaned.

        My point with this short sword is more the colour of the metal which seems
        to me too yellowish (brass?). But of course it is not possible to fairly
        condemn the piece just for the photo.



        And bay-the-way, I think that it is not from Amlash, but more the Elan or
        Luristan styles.



        Best regards

        Antonio de Melo





        -----Original Message-----
        From: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of viriato17
        Sent: segunda-feira, 2 de Janeiro de 2006 11:16
        To: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AncientWeapons] patina went on holidays?



        Happy new year to all,

        this dagger is stylistically ok, but what happened to the patina?
        overcleaned or a modern repro?

        http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-BEST-Persian-Amlash-Sword-800BC-N-
        RES_W0QQitemZ7379156859QQcategoryZ73464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZVie
        wItem
        http://tinyurl.com/cd7q9

        Best regards
        D.Macias







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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dayharbor
        Hi Diego and Antonio, It is difficult to say with 100% certainty that this dagger is authentic or fake. There are no close-ups of the patina, so, without
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 2, 2006
          Hi Diego and Antonio,
          It is difficult to say with 100% certainty that this dagger is
          authentic or fake. There are no close-ups of the patina, so, without
          inspecting it first hand, it's impossible to say. One side of the
          blade has obviously been cleaned. If it is authentic, it is not from
          Elam or Luristan, but rather typical of the crescent hilt daggers
          from the Amlash or Marlik provinces.
          Regards,
          Kevin
          --- In AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com, "Antonio Frutuoso de Melo"
          <afrumelo@m...> wrote:
          >
          > Happy new year to all!
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear Diego,
          >
          > I believe the patina (old or new.) has likely been cleaned.
          >
          > My point with this short sword is more the colour of the metal
          which seems
          > to me too yellowish (brass?). But of course it is not possible to
          fairly
          > condemn the piece just for the photo.
          >
          >
          >
          > And bay-the-way, I think that it is not from Amlash, but more the
          Elan or
          > Luristan styles.
          >
          >
          >
          > Best regards
          >
          > Antonio de Melo
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com]
          > On Behalf Of viriato17
          > Sent: segunda-feira, 2 de Janeiro de 2006 11:16
          > To: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [AncientWeapons] patina went on holidays?
          >
          >
          >
          > Happy new year to all,
          >
          > this dagger is stylistically ok, but what happened to the patina?
          > overcleaned or a modern repro?
          >
          > http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-BEST-Persian-Amlash-Sword-800BC-N-
          >
          RES_W0QQitemZ7379156859QQcategoryZ73464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV
          ie
          > wItem
          > http://tinyurl.com/cd7q9
          >
          > Best regards
          > D.Macias
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > SPONSORED LINKS
          >
          >
          > Online
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          al+scie
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          Ip2YjWF
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          67&.sig
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        • Antonio Frutuoso de Melo
          Hi Kevin, Yes you are right - Marlik - see Muscarella, Bronze and Iron... page 102, for a very similar example. Idem for Negahben Marlik the Complete
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 2, 2006
            Hi Kevin,

            Yes you are right - Marlik - see Muscarella, "Bronze and Iron..." page 102,
            for a very similar example.

            Idem for Negahben "Marlik the Complete Excavation Report", vol. 2, plate
            121, photos 712, 716 and 720.

            My confusion came from Mahboubian, "Art of Ancient Iran." pages296 and 303.

            My apologies to the group!

            Best regards

            Antonio





            -----Original Message-----
            From: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of dayharbor
            Sent: segunda-feira, 2 de Janeiro de 2006 20:19
            To: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [AncientWeapons] Re: patina went on holidays?



            Hi Diego and Antonio,
            It is difficult to say with 100% certainty that this dagger is
            authentic or fake. There are no close-ups of the patina, so, without
            inspecting it first hand, it's impossible to say. One side of the
            blade has obviously been cleaned. If it is authentic, it is not from
            Elam or Luristan, but rather typical of the crescent hilt daggers
            from the Amlash or Marlik provinces.
            Regards,
            Kevin
            --- In AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com, "Antonio Frutuoso de Melo"
            <afrumelo@m...> wrote:
            >
            > Happy new year to all!
            >
            >
            >
            > Dear Diego,
            >
            > I believe the patina (old or new.) has likely been cleaned.
            >
            > My point with this short sword is more the colour of the metal
            which seems
            > to me too yellowish (brass?). But of course it is not possible to
            fairly
            > condemn the piece just for the photo.
            >
            >
            >
            > And bay-the-way, I think that it is not from Amlash, but more the
            Elan or
            > Luristan styles.
            >
            >
            >
            > Best regards
            >
            > Antonio de Melo
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com]
            > On Behalf Of viriato17
            > Sent: segunda-feira, 2 de Janeiro de 2006 11:16
            > To: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [AncientWeapons] patina went on holidays?
            >
            >
            >
            > Happy new year to all,
            >
            > this dagger is stylistically ok, but what happened to the patina?
            > overcleaned or a modern repro?
            >
            > http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-BEST-Persian-Amlash-Sword-800BC-N-
            >
            RES_W0QQitemZ7379156859QQcategoryZ73464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV
            ie
            > wItem
            > http://tinyurl.com/cd7q9
            >
            > Best regards
            > D.Macias
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS
            >
            >
            > Online
            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
            t=ms&k=Online+social+science+degree&w1=Online+
            >
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            al+scie
            >
            nce+degree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&
            c=6&s=1
            > 67&.sig=W__vTQifYBfPVXmdWJBInQ> social science degree
            >
            > Archaeology
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            >
            gree&w2=Archaeology&w3=Social+science+course&w4=Social+science+degree
            &w5=Soc
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            ial+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=6&s=167&.sig=Yp
            Ip2YjWF
            > DgTIgCrXO14Hw>
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            t=ms&k=Social+science+course&w1=Online+social+
            >
            science+degree&w2=Archaeology&w3=Social+science+course&w4=Social+scie
            nce+deg
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            ree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=6&s=1
            67&.sig
            > =xBkNmGslKi4yK0BBdU6SOA> science course
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            t=ms&k=Social+science+degree&w1=Online+social+
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            cience+
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            degree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=6&
            s=167&.
            > sig=QO_p2r118amnjVeRhOrvbw> science education
            >
            > Bachelor
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            t=ms&k=Bachelor+of+social+science&w1=Online+so
            >
            cial+science+degree&w2=Archaeology&w3=Social+science+course&w4=Social
            +scienc
            >
            e+degree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=
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            > &.sig=AiHOGlrrn5K3GsY7XIjTcA> of social science
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            >







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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • cerberuscoins
            The patina looks to me like bronze diseased coins...whats underneath that patina could be worryiing if they havent stripped it off like the rest of the blade
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 3, 2006
              The patina looks to me like bronze diseased coins...whats underneath
              that patina could be worryiing if they havent stripped it off like the
              rest of the blade

              Cameron


              --- In AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com, "dayharbor" <ARoss11@c...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Diego and Antonio,
              > It is difficult to say with 100% certainty that this dagger is
              > authentic or fake. There are no close-ups of the patina, so, without
              > inspecting it first hand, it's impossible to say. One side of the
              > blade has obviously been cleaned. If it is authentic, it is not from
              > Elam or Luristan, but rather typical of the crescent hilt daggers
              > from the Amlash or Marlik provinces.
              > Regards,
              > Kevin
              > --- In AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com, "Antonio Frutuoso de Melo"
              > <afrumelo@m...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Happy new year to all!
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Dear Diego,
              > >
              > > I believe the patina (old or new.) has likely been cleaned.
              > >
              > > My point with this short sword is more the colour of the metal
              > which seems
              > > to me too yellowish (brass?). But of course it is not possible to
              > fairly
              > > condemn the piece just for the photo.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > And bay-the-way, I think that it is not from Amlash, but more the
              > Elan or
              > > Luristan styles.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Best regards
              > >
              > > Antonio de Melo
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com]
              > > On Behalf Of viriato17
              > > Sent: segunda-feira, 2 de Janeiro de 2006 11:16
              > > To: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [AncientWeapons] patina went on holidays?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Happy new year to all,
              > >
              > > this dagger is stylistically ok, but what happened to the patina?
              > > overcleaned or a modern repro?
              > >
              > > http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-BEST-Persian-Amlash-Sword-800BC-N-
              > >
              > RES_W0QQitemZ7379156859QQcategoryZ73464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV
              > ie
              > > wItem
              > > http://tinyurl.com/cd7q9
              > >
              > > Best regards
              > > D.Macias
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > SPONSORED LINKS
              > >
              > >
              > > Online
              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
              > t=ms&k=Online+social+science+degree&w1=Online+
              > >
              > social+science+degree&w2=Archaeology&w3=Social+science+course&w4=Soci
              > al+scie
              > >
              > nce+degree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&
              > c=6&s=1
              > > 67&.sig=W__vTQifYBfPVXmdWJBInQ> social science degree
              > >
              > > Archaeology
              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
              > t=ms&k=Archaeology&w1=Online+social+science+de
              > >
              > gree&w2=Archaeology&w3=Social+science+course&w4=Social+science+degree
              > &w5=Soc
              > >
              > ial+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=6&s=167&.sig=Yp
              > Ip2YjWF
              > > DgTIgCrXO14Hw>
              > >
              > > Social
              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
              > t=ms&k=Social+science+course&w1=Online+social+
              > >
              > science+degree&w2=Archaeology&w3=Social+science+course&w4=Social+scie
              > nce+deg
              > >
              > ree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=6&s=1
              > 67&.sig
              > > =xBkNmGslKi4yK0BBdU6SOA> science course
              > >
              > >
              > > Social
              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
              > t=ms&k=Social+science+degree&w1=Online+social+
              > >
              > science+degree&w2=Archaeology&w3=Social+science+course&w4=Social+scie
              > nce+deg
              > >
              > ree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=6&s=1
              > 67&.sig
              > > =3p1v5AhliTAsHi-fc54TWA> science degree
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              > t=ms&k=Social+science+education&w1=Online+soci
              > >
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              > cience+
              > >
              > degree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=6&
              > s=167&.
              > > sig=QO_p2r118amnjVeRhOrvbw> science education
              > >
              > > Bachelor
              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
              > t=ms&k=Bachelor+of+social+science&w1=Online+so
              > >
              > cial+science+degree&w2=Archaeology&w3=Social+science+course&w4=Social
              > +scienc
              > >
              > e+degree&w5=Social+science+education&w6=Bachelor+of+social+science&c=
              > 6&s=167
              > > &.sig=AiHOGlrrn5K3GsY7XIjTcA> of social science
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > _____
              > >
              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > * Visit your group "AncientWeapons
              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientWeapons> " on the web.
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              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
            • viriato17
              Thank you all for your opinions, (I apologize to be this late on the discussion, I was on holidays these days). I saw the flanged dagger in Muscarella Bronze
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 8, 2006
                Thank you all for your opinions, (I apologize to be this late on the
                discussion, I was on holidays these days). I saw the flanged dagger
                in Muscarella "Bronze and Iron" page 102, however the dagger
                illustrated in Muscarella is not exactly the same, note that the one
                in Muscarella has a blade with blood channels and this one from
                Eftis has a prominent midrib. Regarding CameronĀ“s opinion, I think
                that maybe the actual status of the patina could be the result of a
                partial treatment for bronze disease.

                Best regards

                Diego Macias
                >
                > Hi Kevin,
                >
                > Yes you are right - Marlik - see Muscarella, "Bronze and Iron..."
                page 102,
                > for a very similar example.
                >
                > Idem for Negahben "Marlik the Complete Excavation Report", vol. 2,
                plate
                > 121, photos 712, 716 and 720.
                >
                > My confusion came from Mahboubian, "Art of Ancient Iran." pages296
                and 303.
                >
                > My apologies to the group!
                >
                > Best regards
                >
                > Antonio
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com]
                > On Behalf Of dayharbor
                > Sent: segunda-feira, 2 de Janeiro de 2006 20:19
                > To: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [AncientWeapons] Re: patina went on holidays?
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi Diego and Antonio,
                > It is difficult to say with 100% certainty that this dagger is
                > authentic or fake. There are no close-ups of the patina, so,
                without
                > inspecting it first hand, it's impossible to say. One side of the
                > blade has obviously been cleaned. If it is authentic, it is not
                from
                > Elam or Luristan, but rather typical of the crescent hilt daggers
                > from the Amlash or Marlik provinces.
                > Regards,
                > Kevin
                > --- In AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com, "Antonio Frutuoso de Melo"
                > <afrumelo@m...> wrote:
                > >
                > > Happy new year to all!
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Dear Diego,
                > >
                > > I believe the patina (old or new.) has likely been cleaned.
                > >
                > > My point with this short sword is more the colour of the metal
                > which seems
                > > to me too yellowish (brass?). But of course it is not possible
                to
                > fairly
                > > condemn the piece just for the photo.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > And bay-the-way, I think that it is not from Amlash, but more
                the
                > Elan or
                > > Luristan styles.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Best regards
                > >
                > > Antonio de Melo
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com]
                > > On Behalf Of viriato17
                > > Sent: segunda-feira, 2 de Janeiro de 2006 11:16
                > > To: AncientWeapons@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [AncientWeapons] patina went on holidays?
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Happy new year to all,
                > >
                > > this dagger is stylistically ok, but what happened to the patina?
                > > overcleaned or a modern repro?
                > >
                > > http://cgi.ebay.com/EFTIS-BEST-Persian-Amlash-Sword-800BC-N-
                > >
                >
                RES_W0QQitemZ7379156859QQcategoryZ73464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZV
                > ie
                > > wItem
                > > http://tinyurl.com/cd7q9
                > >
                > > Best regards
                > > D.Macias
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
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