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Re: ABH Re: Samaritans and Jews, Fact and Fiction, Part I

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  • Attila Csanyi
    Excellent comments, Holly. AC ________________________________ From: Holly To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 9,
    Message 1 of 74 , Sep 10, 2013
      Excellent comments, Holly.
      AC


      From: Holly <gmrf@...>
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, September 9, 2013 7:10 PM
      Subject: ABH Re: Samaritans and Jews, Fact and Fiction, Part I

       
      Hey Ian:

      I need to correct this sentence: "Here is another proof that
      the Samaritans or the descendants of the northern Israelite's chief god was Thoru Ilu or Bull El who is depicted as wearing the horned crown representing the crescent moon." It should read: "Here is another proof that the Samaritan's, who are the descendants of the northern Israelites, chief god was Thoru Ilu or Bull El who is depicted wearing the horned crown representing the crescent moon."

      Also, as I was reading your thesis, it struck me that you are taking literally the dates assigned by the Judean and Israelite scribes to characters proceeding from an oral tradition. You must remember that these tales are a confusion of northern and southern ORAL traditions; some emerging from northern tribes aligned with Sidon and Tyre and others belonging to the southern tribes allied to Midian and Edom. Tribal histories intermingled due to tribal alliances and the ensuing confederations emerging from these alliances. Every time these tribes merged into confederations, they adopted the mythological history and religion of their allies. That is because they regarded themselves as relatives thru marriage and adoption. Of course, the confederations routinely fell apart thru disputes at which time former allies would become enemies and align themselves with other confederations. Many of these oral histories also began in languages other than Hebrew as Moabite, Edomite, Canaanite, Midianite and others. Words became misinterpreted when they entered another language. Heroes became villains as the confederate allies fell into dispute and villains became heroes as these tribes found allies in former enemies. Ancestors were exchanged and were either vilified or exalted depending on the relationship of one tribe to another at any given time. You can see many examples of this throughout the Bible where Saul is a chosen of YHWH and then cursed by the same god. The same happens with Moses, who dies in the wilderness for disobeying YHWH, David who loses a son because he killed the husband of the woman he seduced and Solomon who dies an apostate. Other characters who suffer a fate of shame after being exalted are Lot, Jacob (stole his brother's inheritance) Reuben (seduced his father's concubine), Judah (committed incest with his daughter-in-law) and almost every king of Israel and Judea. In any case, when the oral traditions became written, the authors attempted to make sense of this jumble of oral traditions by organizing them into a chronology which made sense to them in the context of their time and their urban culture. The language of these Hebraic authors was very different from the languages of their heroes who spoke proto-Canaanite, Egyptian, Midianite etc. Their urbanite culture was very different from the Bedouin whom they portrayed as their ancestors. These authors, who attempted to organize a chronology, had very little to go on when they organized these oral traditions, so they imposed their own language and cultural attitudes and traditions upon the characters they portrayed. This penned oral history was meant to give the populace a sense of who they were, legitimize their leadership, their priesthood, their deity and their current political and economic situation. So, enjoy the stories as an expression of an ancient written interpretation of a Middle Eastern oral tradition. Assigning exact dates to characters which proceeded from an oral tradition is defeating the reason for which these stories were composed.

      Holly

      --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Holly" <gmrf@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hey Ian:
      >
      > I have been reading your thesis and I found this paragraph to be very interesting:
      >
      > The annual Passover of the Samaritans is celebrated on Mount Gerizim overlooking Nablus in the West Bank, or Samaria, and is a major spectacle attracting thousands of visitors to the scenic hilltop.The Samaritan calendar differs from the Jewish calendar. They count their lunar months from spring to spring, while the Jews count theirs from autumn to autumn. The Jewish first Evening Full Moon of the year must fall near or directly after the autumn equinox, but the Samaritan first Evening Lunar Crescent of the year must fall directly after, not before or on the spring equinox. The Samaritans also follow a different cycle of leap years. As a result, the Samaritans celebrate Pascha usually a month later than the Jews.
      > end quote
      >
      > The Samaritans begin their lunar year with the crescent moon, but the southern Judeans begin their lunar year with the full moon. Here is another proof that the Samaritans or the descendants of the northern Israelite's chief god was Thoru Ilu or Bull El who is depicted as wearing the horned crown representing the crescent moon. You can see his image at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity). El was worshipped in the form of his sacred animal the bull calf which represented the new born/new crescent moon. This bull calf image was anathema to the Judeans whose god was Yh/YHWH:
      >
      > Hsa 8:5-6: "Thy calf, O Samaria, hath cast thee off; mine anger is kindled against them: how long will it be ere they attain to innocency?
      > For from Israel was it also: the workman made it; therefore it is not God: but the calf of Samaria shall be broken in pieces."
      >
      > On the other hand, the Judeans worshipped the full moon or Yh/YHWH, whose icon was the nehusthan or snake, the image in which he was worshipped, that is until Hezekiah, king of Judah, destroyed it:
      >
      > 2Ki 18:4: "He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan."
      >
      > According to Dr. James Montgomery in his book, Arabia & the Bible, as well as the old Negev inscriptions, Yh was another name for Wadd, the god of the full moon. You can see his image as a snake on both the Beersheba altar and the Migdal Synagogue stone as well in various cultic artifacts found throughout Israel. After the Assyrian defeat of the northern kingdom of Israel and the massive emigration of Israelites into Judea, the Judean kings, Josiah and Hezekiah, attempted to merge these 2 gods by destroying their iconic images in which they were worshipped. At this time, the gods' names must have been officially merged so that Thoru Ilu and Yh-Wadd became YHWH Elohiym or a single lunar deity, whose merged name indicated 2 phases of the moon. Also,the myth of the united kingdom of Israel was likely forged at this time as well, and became the official history of the exiled Israelites and the Judeans. The official merging of the 2 gods and the 2 people, the Canaanite descended Israelites and the Judeans, whose ancestors can be traced to the southern tribes of Midian (see marriage of Moses to Zipporah,)became the very confused official genealogy of Biblical Canaan. Also, at this time, Hilkiah, a priest who served Josiah, suddenly came upon the Torah scroll revealed to Moses. The united kingdom myth, the united god myth, and the Moses' scroll ploy all seem to have been political efforts to merge the 2 religions and 2 populations into a cohesive political entity. As you point out in your work, the merger was superficial. The Samaritans considered themselves to be the true descendants of the tribes of Jacob and the Judeans as interlopers from Persia. Conversely, the Judeans considered themselves to be the true Hebrews and accused the Samaritans of being cutheans or of Assyrian origin. And the battle continues today.
      >
      > Thoughts?
      >
      > Holly
      >
      > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Folks,
      > >
      > > Here is my latest contribution of the day: a 76-page booklet to set your teeth in. Comments are welcome. Go get it!
      > >
      > > http://www.academia.edu/4397734/Samaritans_and_Jews_Fact_and_Fiction_Volume_I
      > >
      > > Ian,
      > > Netherlands
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >



    • Lloyd Barre
      Futile speculation. You need to document your views. Dr. Barre ... Futile speculation.á You need to document your views. Dr. Barre On Thu, Oct 10, 2013
      Message 74 of 74 , Oct 14, 2013
        Futile speculation.  You need to document your "views."

        Dr. Barre'


        On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 3:54 PM, <gmrf@...> wrote:
         

        LM:

         

        We know from the Semitic snake spells inscribed in Unas' pyramid that the Semites were already established in Egypt as early as the 5th Dynasty. We can conclude that they had been there for enough time to establish rapport with the Egyptian royals so that they were allowed to use their magic to protect the body of the pharaoh. This implies that they had been in Egypt for some time and that they had integrated themselves into the Egyptian establishment. From this, I can conclude that the Semites were in positions to serve the pharaoh; positions that must have been established on a precedent of a Semite or Shasu that had already been honored with a royally appointed position. Imhotep, known as Joseph to the Hebrews, may well have been that Shasu. Nothing is known about Imhotep's parentage. He was a commoner who served the pharaoh and was later deified. The Egyptians would not have ascribed a Semitic heritage to one of their great heroes turned deity, so they Egyptianized him. So, Imhotep may actually have been Joseph, the person who legitimized the Semitic presence in Egypt.

         

        Holly



        ---In ancientbiblehistory@yahoogroups.com, <lloydbarre@...> wrote:

        They are not the same person anymore than you are me.
         
        LM Barre

        From: Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...>
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 5:30 AM
        Subject: Re: ABH RE: NEW: Remake of Israel Data Base on Internet as Bible Resource
         
        Imhotep. Manetho&apos;s Imuthes, is more like Moses instead! Ian Netherlands

        From: Lloyd Barre <lmbarre@...>
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2013 12:48 AM
        Subject: Re: ABH RE: NEW: Remake of Israel Data Base on Internet as Bible Resource

         
        To think that Imhotep and Joseph are the same person is patent nonsense.  Why do you adovate such a silly notion?
         
        Dr. Barre&apos;
        On Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 4:31 PM, <gmrf@...> wrote:
         
        Hey Aris:
         
        I have long advocated Imhotep as the original Joseph, but not for biblical reasons. The name Haman appears in the Quran 28:38 as the master builder to the Pharaoh who governed at the time of Moses. Haman&apos;s tomb was discovered in 1912. In the tomb was a statue with the following inscription:
         
         “Member of the elite, high official, vizier, king’s seal bearer, attendant of Nekhen, and spokesman of every resident of Pe, priest of Bastest, priest of Shesmetet, priest of the Ram Mendes, keeper of the Apis Bull, the White Bull, whom his lord loves, elder of the palace, high priest of Thoth, whom his lord loves, courtier, Overseer of Royal Scribes, priest of the Panther Goddess, Director of Music of the South and North, Overseer of All Construction Projects of the King, king’s [grand]son of his own body”
         
        The identification of Khufu as the Pharaoh,who reigned during the time of Moses, led me to look for Joseph in the preceding dynasty. The only candidate for Joseph&apos;s pharaoh appeared to be Djoser as he was the only pharaoh connected with a 7 year famine and a dream associated with that famine. The dream was recorded by Ptolemy V on the Famine Stele on the Island of Sehel in Aswan, Egypt. 
         
        Another bit of evidence for Imhotep&apos;s identity as Joseph resides in the meaning of Joseph&apos;s biblical Egyptian name, tsaphnath Paneah which appears to be a Hebrew transliteration of an Arabic phrase, tsafin benena, which means &apos;a peaceful settlement between us&apos;. The Arabic speaking Masoretes may have unraveled the garbbled phrase, Psonthomphanech, which appears in the Septuagint as a Greek transliteration of a Hebrew phrase, to  an equivalent meaning in Arabic, since no equivalent meaning could be found in Hebrew. The Arabic meaning, &apos;a peaceful settlement between us&apos; appears to match the Egyptian meaning of Imhotep, which means &apos;he who comes in peace.&apos; 
         
        Imhotep would be an appropriate Egyptian name for Joseph. His people, the Shasu, were regarded with a wary eye by the Egyptians. It would behoove a Pharaoh who wished to take advantage of this Shasu&apos;s services to endow him with a name which would mollify the Egyptians into thinking that he was a friend of Egypt instead of a threat, since he decided to allow the immigration of Joseph&apos;s entire tribe into Egypt. Thus, the Semitic interpretation of Imhotep (he who comes in peace) would be  tsphnth p3nh or &apos;a peaceful settlement between us&apos;. By the way, Egyptologists thought that Imhotep was a myth until they found an inscription referring to him on the base of one of Djoser&apos;s statues. So, some mythical characters aren&apos;t myths at all. Like Imhotep, they are real historical personages.
         
        Holly
        ---In ancientbiblehistory@yahoogroups.com, <ahobeth@...> wrote:
        Joseph  is Imhotep. If you want a 90 page listing of reasons, check out book "The Exodus Case" by Lennart Moller. Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

        From: Lloyd Barre <lmbarre@...>
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, September 30, 2013 5:54 PM
        Subject: Re: ABH The original biblical Creation occurred in 14,784 BC / With Warning!
         
        But Joseph is not a historical personage, is he Aris?

        LM Barre
        On Fri, Sep 27, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Attila Csanyi <cosmogenesnm@...> wrote:
         
        Please explain.
        AC

        From: Lloyd Barre <lmbarre@...>
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 6:11 PM
        Subject: Re: ABH The original biblical Creation occurred in 14,784 BC / With Warning!
         
        No, linear cosmology is as old as the ancient Israelites.
        LM
        On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 11:43 AM, Attila Csanyi <cosmogenesnm@...> wrote:
         
        The linear cosmology of Christianity came from Zarathustra. AC

        From: Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...>
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:26 AM
        Subject: Re: ABH The original biblical Creation occurred in 14,784 BC / With Warning!
         
        LM, I agree with you, recurring cycles is a big religious notion. But most do not realize that the Torah is also cyclic, which reveals its great, great antiquetiy. Herodotos too wrote a double cycled history of Egypt, what happened in the Second Intermediate period, for instance he conflated with the Second Dynasty and vise versa, and this is why in Herodotos the Fall of Troy is strangely followed by the 4th Dynasty and the pyramid buiding on Gizah, but also contains information about or allusions to the 19th Dynastie, etcetera, down to Psmetichus en Necho of the 26th Dynasty intermingled with the 6th Dynasty. That is what cyclic history writing does. In ancient times history and religion were considered but also written cyclic. One purposes is prophecie, i.e. predicton by reusing the biblical texts and projecting the deep thoughts that spring from them onto either the present or the future or something of the past that needs reconsidering. Such a book is religiously embraced as superior, since it seems to encompass all answers to past, present and fucture. Regards, Ian Netherlands


        From: Attila Csanyi <cosmogenesnm@...>
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 11:42 PM
        Subject: Re: ABH The original biblical Creation occurred in 14,784 BC / With Warning!
         
        Attention List Members:
        This discussion is wandering beyond the boundaries of ABH. We are not hear to debate scientific ideas.
         
        Please return this conversation to an Historical or Biblical associated subject or end the thread.
         
        Thank-you,
        Kim /Moderator
         
        It is both.
        "Inflation is a period of accelerated expansion in the very early universe. Combined with the big bang model it forms the consensus model of cosmology. 
         
        Recurring cycles in time is a religious notion.  It is not scientific.
        LM Barre&apos;
        On Tue, Sep 24, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
         
        That is correct AC. Ian Netherlands

        From: Attila Csanyi <cosmogenesnm@...>
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, September 24, 2013 3:59 AM
        Subject: Re: ABH The original biblical Creation occurred in 14,784 BC

         
        That is as silly as the 6-10,000 years.
        Most cultures postulate an eternal sequence of recurring cycles.      
         
         
        Creation does not need a beginning or an end. It is co-eternal with the Creator
         
        Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

        From: Lloyd Barre <lloydbarre@...>
        To: "AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com" <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 2:28 PM
        Subject: Re: ABH The original biblical Creation occurred in 14,784 BC
         
        The unverse is eternal.  There was no creation. 
        LM Barre, PhD

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