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Re: ABH Re: 6:3 Jesus son of Mary Insult

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  • Ahobeth@yahoo.com
    I like the walking snake meaning. Link to the Midian brazen serpent cult perhaps? Or to Eve s tempter? Sent from my iPad ... [Non-text portions of this message
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 19, 2013
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      I like the walking snake meaning. Link to the Midian brazen serpent cult perhaps? Or to Eve's tempter?

      Sent from my iPad

      On Jun 19, 2013, at 9:13 AM, "Holly" <gmrf@...> wrote:

      > Aris:
      >
      > Here are some of the meanings of 'Moses' in the languages of the people with whom the Israelites were associated:
      >
      > His name has many different meanings in the languages of the people with whom the Hebrews were associated; namely the Egyptians, the Aramaeans, the Babylonians, and the caravanning tribes from the southern coast of the Arabian Peninsula. Here are several different interpretations of the Hebrew origin of Moses' name. His name is Mosis in Egyptian, Mshh (Moshe) in Hebrew, Msh (Mush) in Babylonian, Msh (Mash in Aramaic-Mash son of Aram, Gen 10:23) which most likely means Mshy in Arabic. Moshh means `to draw out' in Hebrew. Mosis means `born of' in Egyptian. Mush means `snake' and `shine' (Moses' nehustan in Num 21:8 & shining face in Exodus 34:29) in Babylonian. Mash (son of Aram) has an unknown meaning in Aramaic but may mean `mshy' in Arabic, meaning 'to walk', which is identical to the meaning of the word `shasu' in Egyptian. It is interesting that the Hebrews considered Msha (Gen 10:30) to be the geographical origin of the Qahtan Arabs (Joktan in the Genesis). The Qahtans were caravaneers, so the name Msh (walkers) might well describe their profession. `Shasu' may well have been the Egyptian translation of `msh' or caravaneer.
      >
      > Personally, I favor the meaning mshy/msha as it is the Semitic version of Shasu. The Hebrews were caravaneer and they have referred to themselves by this title.
      >
      > Holly
      >
      > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Ahobeth@..." <ahobeth@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Why does the legitimacy of Jesus never get compared to a similar situation involving Moses' adoption? Doesn't the name Moses just mean son of somebody. Granted Moses father and mother are named. Why adoption then? Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth
      > >
      > > Sent from my iPad
      > >
      > > On Jun 11, 2013, at 9:01 PM, "Holly" <gmrf@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > > Hey All:
      > > >
      > > > I am reprinting at the end of this post my previous post 59280. I have found confirmation for the proposal that Jesus being addressed as the son of Mary in Mark 6:3 was meant as an insult:
      > > >
      > > > http://classic.net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=mark%206:3;Matthew%2013:55-56#v3
      > > >
      > > > 1 tc Evidently because of the possible offensiveness of designating Jesus a carpenter, several mss ([Ì45vid] Ë13 33vid [565 579] 700 [2542] pc it vgmss) harmonize the words "carpenter, the son" to the parallel passage in Matt 13:55, "the son of the carpenter." Almost all the rest of the mss read "the carpenter, the son." Since the explicit designation of Jesus as a carpenter is the more difficult reading, and is much better attested, it is most likely correct.
      > > >
      > > > 2 sn The reference to Jesus as the carpenter is probably derogatory, indicating that they knew Jesus only as a common laborer like themselves. The reference to him as the son of Mary (even though Jesus' father was probably dead by this point) appears to be somewhat derogatory, for a man was not regarded as his mother's son in Jewish usage unless an insult was intended (cf. Judg 11:1-2; John 6:42; 8:41; 9:29).
      > > >
      > > > 3 sn The reference to Jesus as the carpenter's son is probably derogatory, indicating that they knew Jesus only as a common laborer like themselves. The reference to his mother…Mary (even though Jesus' father was probably dead by this point) appears to be somewhat derogatory, for a man was not regarded as his mother's son in Jewish usage unless an insult was intended (cf. Judg 11:1-2; John 4:41; 8:41; 9:29).
      > > >
      > > > Judges 11:1-2 reads:
      > > >
      > > > Jdg 11:1 Now Jephthah the Gileadite was a mighty warrior, but he was the son of a harlot. Gilead was the father of Jephthah.
      > > > Jdg 11:2 And Gilead's wife also bore him sons; and when his wife's sons grew up, they thrust Jephthah out, and said to him, "You shall not inherit in our father's house; for you are the son of another woman."
      > > >
      > > > The above references bolsters the proposal that the Greek word tekton (carpenter) is a mistransliteration of the Hebrew/Aramaic word tachan which means 'miller'. A tachana was a female miller. Tachana also meant concubine. Concubines were often prostituted to other males by their masters. Jesus was addressed as tachan; a reference to the rumor that his mother conceived him out of wedlock. There are numerous Aramaic words in the Gospel of Mark, so a mistransliteration of an Aramaic word would not be unusual. For those interested in the subject, please refer to:
      > > >
      > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_Jesus
      > > >
      > > > As for the crucifixion plot proposed in the following post, in a previous post I proposed that it may have been possible for Thomas, (Jesus' twin according to the Nag Hamadi gospel of The Book of Thomas the Contender: http://gnosis.org/naghamm/bookt.html) to have taken Jesus' place on the cross. This switch might explain Josephus' Samaritan Prophet (http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messianic_claimants06.html) who failed in an attempt to lay the corner stone of a new temple on Mount Gerizim. The Samiritans expected a Taheb or restorer and Jesus and his followers were attempting to fulfill that role by restoring the temple John Hyrcanus destroyed. A parallel incident happened in the Gospel of Mark when Jesus and his disciples attempted to occupy and control the Jerusalem temple according to Mark 11:15,16:
      > > >
      > > > "And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who sold pigeons; and he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple."
      > > >
      > > > In any case, if the above proposal is accurate Mark's gospel is the earliest record that Jesus' father was unknown to his town folk and that at least some of these folk caste aspersion on his mother's reputation. We can conclude that the story of the virgin birth was in early circulation for Mary married Joseph and produced sons and daughters according to Mark 6. She did not suffer the punishment of a fornicator (Lev 21:9) and her son was not excluded from the community (Deut 23:2). Instead he was educated as a teacher or rabbi. Such an education indicates that Mary was from a priestly family, perhaps of the Samaritan sect. Her family must have believed the virgin birth story and protected her from the consequences of producing a son out of wedlock.
      > > >
      > > > Thoughts?
      > > > Holly
      > > >
      > > > Post 59280
      > > >
      > > > I never bought the story that Jesus' father was a carpenter and I
      > > > think Mark 6:3 makes this clear. Notice how Jesus is addressed
      > > > as "the son of Mary" and not the son Joseph. As you know, addressing
      > > > a child by his mother's name was an insult for it implied that the
      > > > child was a bastard. Politeness demanded that the child be addressed
      > > > by the father's name.
      > > >
      > > > There were obviously 2 versions of Jesus' birth in circulation; one
      > > > that his mother was impregnated by divine decree (indicated in
      > > > Matthew & Luke) and the other that he was illegitimate (indicated in
      > > > Mark). The fact that Jesus was a student of the Torah and preached in
      > > > the synagogues argues that his miraculous birth was either well-known
      > > > and accepted or that the circumstances were kept secret. The fact
      > > > that Mark addresses Jesus as the 'son of Mary' argues that the story
      > > > of his conception by divine decree was well known and accepted by
      > > > some and rejected by others as Jesus' townfolk; otherwise he would
      > > > have been banned from studying the Torah and from preaching in the
      > > > synagogues. According to Deu 23:2 "A bastard shall not enter into the
      > > > congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not
      > > > enter into the congregation of the LORD."
      > > >
      > > > The fact that Jesus was a student of the Torah (Ben Torah - Panthera
      > > > may be a corruption of Ben Torah) argues against the idea that Jesus'
      > > > father was a carpenter. Jesus education and his acceptance in the
      > > > synagogues as a rabbi; a title, which according to the Gospel of
      > > > John, was used to address Jesus ("Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by
      > > > night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come
      > > > from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except
      > > > God be with him.) is an indication that Jesus was a Levite and that
      > > > Mary may have been, like Elizabeth, a daughter of Aaron as is
      > > > indicated in Luke.
      > > >
      > > > All of this brought me to wonder if the Greek word for carpenter
      > > > (tekton) was not a translation of the Aramaic, but an attempt to
      > > > transliterate a Hebrew word into a Greek word. The Aramaic word (and
      > > > the Arabic word) for carpenter is nagara and bears no resemblance to
      > > > the Greek 'tekton'. However, 'tekton' may be an attempt to
      > > > transliterate the Hebrew word, 'tachan' into Greek.
      > > > tachan
      > > > taw-khan'
      > > > a primitive root; to grind meal; hence, to be a concubine (that
      > > > being their employment):--grind(-er).
      > > >
      > > > Thus, the Jesus' town folk may be referring to Mary as a tachon
      > > > (mistransliterated as tekton) rather than Joseph as a tekton. Tachon
      > > > is a grinder of meal or a concubine. This would explain why Jesus is
      > > > addressed by his town folk in a manner which indicated that he was a
      > > > bastard. The town folk not only implied he was a bastard by addressing
      > > > him as the son of Mary, they further threw the insult that his mother
      > > > was no better than a concubine (tachan). Concubines were often let by
      > > > their masters for hire as prostitutes (http://books.google.com/books?
      > > > id=Vzy0urF2KIAC&pg=PA454&lpg=PA454&dq=concubines+for+hire+Israel&sourc
      > > > e=web&ots=uySvAurzNd&sig=gDIZpieSXHFRZ3hmweGisWB8gfE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=boo
      > > > k_result&resnum=1&ct=result). Sara (tsara means to be a concubine in
      > > > Arabic) was hired out twice by Abraham for material gain according to
      > > > Genesis.
      > > >
      > > > The upshot of all of this indicates to me that there were two
      > > > concurrent and opposing versions of Jesus' paternity; one that he was
      > > > conceived by divine decree and the other that he was the son of
      > > > a 'tachan.' I think both of these stories issued from the lore of 1st
      > > > Century Palestine as indicated by their repetition in Matthew and
      > > > Mark and in Luke who greatly embellished the divine decree origin of
      > > > Jesus. Since Mark is the older gospel, the author of Matthew may have
      > > > run with the mistransliteration of tachon as tekton which made Joseph
      > > > a carpenter. However, the idea that Jesus' father was a carpenter is
      > > > contradictory to Jesus' education as a rabbi and a preacher of the
      > > > Torah in the synagogues. I think it much more consistent that Jesus'
      > > > miraculous birth story was rejected by at least some of, his fellow
      > > > town folk but was accepted by some scholars (probably Samaritans
      > > > looking for the return of Moses) who educated Jesus in the Torah.
      > > > That Jesus was most likely educated by Samaritan clergy would explain
      > > > his conflict with the Pharisees and Sadducees in Jerusalem. It would
      > > > also explain the "Good Samaritan" parable and the reason why Jesus
      > > > appeared between Moses and Elijah during the transfiguration. Elijah
      > > > was sent as a prophet of Israel (Samaria in Jesus' time) and the
      > > > Samaritans were looking for the return of Moses. It would also
      > > > explain Jesus' pre-arranged meeting with his disciples after
      > > > his "crucifixion":
      > > >
      > > > Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into
      > > > Galilee.
      > > >
      > > > Mar 16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth
      > > > before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
      > > >
      > > > The above plot to re-assemble in Galilee after the crucifixion makes
      > > > me think that the crucifixion was a hoax and that Jesus was released
      > > > by Pilate (fear of wife's dream). Jesus then went to Galilee where he
      > > > and his disciples made themselves ready for an attempt to "re-claim"
      > > > Mount Gerizem with the blessing of the Samaritan clergy. The Mount
      > > > Gerizem revolt (against Rome) was crushed by Pilate who was re-called
      > > > to Rome (probably for releasing Jesus the first time as well as the
      > > > complaints of the Samaritan clergy) and Jesus was probably executed
      > > > during the attempt. Their is a good chance that Jesus was the un-
      > > > named Samaritan Prophet.
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • lloyd barre
      Most people think the Mose is Egyptian, like Tut-mose, Ramoses and so on. Moses was an Egyptian so his name is Egyptian. ... [Non-text portions of this message
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 19, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Most people think the Mose is Egyptian, like Tut-mose, Ramoses and so on.
        Moses was an Egyptian so his name is Egyptian.


        On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 6:13 AM, Holly <gmrf@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Aris:
        >
        > Here are some of the meanings of 'Moses' in the languages of the people
        > with whom the Israelites were associated:
        >
        > His name has many different meanings in the languages of the people with
        > whom the Hebrews were associated; namely the Egyptians, the Aramaeans, the
        > Babylonians, and the caravanning tribes from the southern coast of the
        > Arabian Peninsula. Here are several different interpretations of the Hebrew
        > origin of Moses' name. His name is Mosis in Egyptian, Mshh (Moshe) in
        > Hebrew, Msh (Mush) in Babylonian, Msh (Mash in Aramaic-Mash son of Aram,
        > Gen 10:23) which most likely means Mshy in Arabic. Moshh means `to draw
        > out' in Hebrew. Mosis means `born of' in Egyptian. Mush means `snake' and
        > `shine' (Moses' nehustan in Num 21:8 & shining face in Exodus 34:29) in
        > Babylonian. Mash (son of Aram) has an unknown meaning in Aramaic but may
        > mean `mshy' in Arabic, meaning 'to walk', which is identical to the meaning
        > of the word `shasu' in Egyptian. It is interesting that the Hebrews
        > considered Msha (Gen 10:30) to be the geographical origin of the Qahtan
        > Arabs (Joktan in the Genesis). The Qahtans were caravaneers, so the name
        > Msh (walkers) might well describe their profession. `Shasu' may well have
        > been the Egyptian translation of `msh' or caravaneer.
        >
        > Personally, I favor the meaning mshy/msha as it is the Semitic version of
        > Shasu. The Hebrews were caravaneer and they have referred to themselves by
        > this title.
        >
        > Holly
        >
        > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Ahobeth@..." <ahobeth@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Why does the legitimacy of Jesus never get compared to a similar
        > situation involving Moses' adoption? Doesn't the name Moses just mean son
        > of somebody. Granted Moses father and mother are named. Why adoption then?
        > Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth
        > >
        > > Sent from my iPad
        > >
        > > On Jun 11, 2013, at 9:01 PM, "Holly" <gmrf@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Hey All:
        > > >
        > > > I am reprinting at the end of this post my previous post 59280. I have
        > found confirmation for the proposal that Jesus being addressed as the son
        > of Mary in Mark 6:3 was meant as an insult:
        > > >
        > > >
        > http://classic.net.bible.org/passage.php?passage=mark%206:3;Matthew%2013:55-56#v3
        > > >
        > > > 1 tc Evidently because of the possible offensiveness of designating
        > Jesus a carpenter, several mss ([Ì45vid] Ë13 33vid [565 579] 700 [2542]
        > pc it vgmss) harmonize the words "carpenter, the son" to the parallel
        > passage in Matt 13:55, "the son of the carpenter." Almost all the rest of
        > the mss read "the carpenter, the son." Since the explicit designation of
        > Jesus as a carpenter is the more difficult reading, and is much better
        > attested, it is most likely correct.
        > > >
        > > > 2 sn The reference to Jesus as the carpenter is probably derogatory,
        > indicating that they knew Jesus only as a common laborer like themselves.
        > The reference to him as the son of Mary (even though Jesus' father was
        > probably dead by this point) appears to be somewhat derogatory, for a man
        > was not regarded as his mother's son in Jewish usage unless an insult was
        > intended (cf. Judg 11:1-2; John 6:42; 8:41; 9:29).
        > > >
        > > > 3 sn The reference to Jesus as the carpenter's son is probably
        > derogatory, indicating that they knew Jesus only as a common laborer like
        > themselves. The reference to his mother…Mary (even though Jesus' father
        > was probably dead by this point) appears to be somewhat derogatory, for a
        > man was not regarded as his mother's son in Jewish usage unless an insult
        > was intended (cf. Judg 11:1-2; John 4:41; 8:41; 9:29).
        > > >
        > > > Judges 11:1-2 reads:
        > > >
        > > > Jdg 11:1 Now Jephthah the Gileadite was a mighty warrior, but he was
        > the son of a harlot. Gilead was the father of Jephthah.
        > > > Jdg 11:2 And Gilead's wife also bore him sons; and when his wife's
        > sons grew up, they thrust Jephthah out, and said to him, "You shall not
        > inherit in our father's house; for you are the son of another woman."
        > > >
        > > > The above references bolsters the proposal that the Greek word tekton
        > (carpenter) is a mistransliteration of the Hebrew/Aramaic word tachan which
        > means 'miller'. A tachana was a female miller. Tachana also meant
        > concubine. Concubines were often prostituted to other males by their
        > masters. Jesus was addressed as tachan; a reference to the rumor that his
        > mother conceived him out of wedlock. There are numerous Aramaic words in
        > the Gospel of Mark, so a mistransliteration of an Aramaic word would not be
        > unusual. For those interested in the subject, please refer to:
        > > >
        > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_Jesus
        > > >
        > > > As for the crucifixion plot proposed in the following post, in a
        > previous post I proposed that it may have been possible for Thomas, (Jesus'
        > twin according to the Nag Hamadi gospel of The Book of Thomas the
        > Contender: http://gnosis.org/naghamm/bookt.html) to have taken Jesus'
        > place on the cross. This switch might explain Josephus' Samaritan Prophet (
        > http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messianic_claimants06.html) who
        > failed in an attempt to lay the corner stone of a new temple on Mount
        > Gerizim. The Samiritans expected a Taheb or restorer and Jesus and his
        > followers were attempting to fulfill that role by restoring the temple John
        > Hyrcanus destroyed. A parallel incident happened in the Gospel of Mark when
        > Jesus and his disciples attempted to occupy and control the Jerusalem
        > temple according to Mark 11:15,16:
        > > >
        > > > "And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to
        > drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he
        > overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who sold
        > pigeons; and he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the
        > temple."
        > > >
        > > > In any case, if the above proposal is accurate Mark's gospel is the
        > earliest record that Jesus' father was unknown to his town folk and that at
        > least some of these folk caste aspersion on his mother's reputation. We can
        > conclude that the story of the virgin birth was in early circulation for
        > Mary married Joseph and produced sons and daughters according to Mark 6.
        > She did not suffer the punishment of a fornicator (Lev 21:9) and her son
        > was not excluded from the community (Deut 23:2). Instead he was educated as
        > a teacher or rabbi. Such an education indicates that Mary was from a
        > priestly family, perhaps of the Samaritan sect. Her family must have
        > believed the virgin birth story and protected her from the consequences of
        > producing a son out of wedlock.
        > > >
        > > > Thoughts?
        > > > Holly
        > > >
        > > > Post 59280
        > > >
        > > > I never bought the story that Jesus' father was a carpenter and I
        > > > think Mark 6:3 makes this clear. Notice how Jesus is addressed
        > > > as "the son of Mary" and not the son Joseph. As you know, addressing
        > > > a child by his mother's name was an insult for it implied that the
        > > > child was a bastard. Politeness demanded that the child be addressed
        > > > by the father's name.
        > > >
        > > > There were obviously 2 versions of Jesus' birth in circulation; one
        > > > that his mother was impregnated by divine decree (indicated in
        > > > Matthew & Luke) and the other that he was illegitimate (indicated in
        > > > Mark). The fact that Jesus was a student of the Torah and preached in
        > > > the synagogues argues that his miraculous birth was either well-known
        > > > and accepted or that the circumstances were kept secret. The fact
        > > > that Mark addresses Jesus as the 'son of Mary' argues that the story
        > > > of his conception by divine decree was well known and accepted by
        > > > some and rejected by others as Jesus' townfolk; otherwise he would
        > > > have been banned from studying the Torah and from preaching in the
        > > > synagogues. According to Deu 23:2 "A bastard shall not enter into the
        > > > congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not
        > > > enter into the congregation of the LORD."
        > > >
        > > > The fact that Jesus was a student of the Torah (Ben Torah - Panthera
        > > > may be a corruption of Ben Torah) argues against the idea that Jesus'
        > > > father was a carpenter. Jesus education and his acceptance in the
        > > > synagogues as a rabbi; a title, which according to the Gospel of
        > > > John, was used to address Jesus ("Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by
        > > > night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come
        > > > from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except
        > > > God be with him.) is an indication that Jesus was a Levite and that
        > > > Mary may have been, like Elizabeth, a daughter of Aaron as is
        > > > indicated in Luke.
        > > >
        > > > All of this brought me to wonder if the Greek word for carpenter
        > > > (tekton) was not a translation of the Aramaic, but an attempt to
        > > > transliterate a Hebrew word into a Greek word. The Aramaic word (and
        > > > the Arabic word) for carpenter is nagara and bears no resemblance to
        > > > the Greek 'tekton'. However, 'tekton' may be an attempt to
        > > > transliterate the Hebrew word, 'tachan' into Greek.
        > > > tachan
        > > > taw-khan'
        > > > a primitive root; to grind meal; hence, to be a concubine (that
        > > > being their employment):--grind(-er).
        > > >
        > > > Thus, the Jesus' town folk may be referring to Mary as a tachon
        > > > (mistransliterated as tekton) rather than Joseph as a tekton. Tachon
        > > > is a grinder of meal or a concubine. This would explain why Jesus is
        > > > addressed by his town folk in a manner which indicated that he was a
        > > > bastard. The town folk not only implied he was a bastard by addressing
        > > > him as the son of Mary, they further threw the insult that his mother
        > > > was no better than a concubine (tachan). Concubines were often let by
        > > > their masters for hire as prostitutes (http://books.google.com/books?
        > > > id=Vzy0urF2KIAC&pg=PA454&lpg=PA454&dq=concubines+for+hire+Israel&sourc
        > > > e=web&ots=uySvAurzNd&sig=gDIZpieSXHFRZ3hmweGisWB8gfE&hl=en&sa=X&oi=boo
        > > > k_result&resnum=1&ct=result). Sara (tsara means to be a concubine in
        > > > Arabic) was hired out twice by Abraham for material gain according to
        > > > Genesis.
        > > >
        > > > The upshot of all of this indicates to me that there were two
        > > > concurrent and opposing versions of Jesus' paternity; one that he was
        > > > conceived by divine decree and the other that he was the son of
        > > > a 'tachan.' I think both of these stories issued from the lore of 1st
        > > > Century Palestine as indicated by their repetition in Matthew and
        > > > Mark and in Luke who greatly embellished the divine decree origin of
        > > > Jesus. Since Mark is the older gospel, the author of Matthew may have
        > > > run with the mistransliteration of tachon as tekton which made Joseph
        > > > a carpenter. However, the idea that Jesus' father was a carpenter is
        > > > contradictory to Jesus' education as a rabbi and a preacher of the
        > > > Torah in the synagogues. I think it much more consistent that Jesus'
        > > > miraculous birth story was rejected by at least some of, his fellow
        > > > town folk but was accepted by some scholars (probably Samaritans
        > > > looking for the return of Moses) who educated Jesus in the Torah.
        > > > That Jesus was most likely educated by Samaritan clergy would explain
        > > > his conflict with the Pharisees and Sadducees in Jerusalem. It would
        > > > also explain the "Good Samaritan" parable and the reason why Jesus
        > > > appeared between Moses and Elijah during the transfiguration. Elijah
        > > > was sent as a prophet of Israel (Samaria in Jesus' time) and the
        > > > Samaritans were looking for the return of Moses. It would also
        > > > explain Jesus' pre-arranged meeting with his disciples after
        > > > his "crucifixion":
        > > >
        > > > Mar 14:28 But after that I am risen, I will go before you into
        > > > Galilee.
        > > >
        > > > Mar 16:7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth
        > > > before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
        > > >
        > > > The above plot to re-assemble in Galilee after the crucifixion makes
        > > > me think that the crucifixion was a hoax and that Jesus was released
        > > > by Pilate (fear of wife's dream). Jesus then went to Galilee where he
        > > > and his disciples made themselves ready for an attempt to "re-claim"
        > > > Mount Gerizem with the blessing of the Samaritan clergy. The Mount
        > > > Gerizem revolt (against Rome) was crushed by Pilate who was re-called
        > > > to Rome (probably for releasing Jesus the first time as well as the
        > > > complaints of the Samaritan clergy) and Jesus was probably executed
        > > > during the attempt. Their is a good chance that Jesus was the un-
        > > > named Samaritan Prophet.
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • lloyd barre
        Hittites migrated into Canaan. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 19, 2013
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          Hittites migrated into Canaan.


          On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 6:08 AM, Holly <gmrf@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hey LM:
          >
          > Not exactly. Here is your reference that the Biblical Chitti were
          > Canaanites:
          >
          > Here is my reference about the Canaanites and the Chitti:
          >
          > http://bibleapps.com/hebrew/2850.htm
          >
          > b. plural ׃הַחִתִּים
          > כֹּל אֶרֶץ
          > הַחִתִּים Joshua 1:4 (D)
          > nearly = land of Canaanites; ׳ארץ הַח
          > specifically of northern home of Hittites Judges 1:26; so also 2 Samuel
          > 24:6
          > where read אֶרֶץ
          > הַחִתִּים
          > קֵ֫דְשָׁה (for ᵑ0
          > תחתים
          > חָדְשִׁי, see
          > חָדְשִׁי,
          > קֵדֶשׁ);
          > מַלְכֵי
          > הַחִתִּים 1 Kings 10:29
          > 2Chronicles 1:17 (both + מַלְכֵי
          > אֲרָם), 2 Kings 7:6 (+
          > מַלְכֵי
          > מִצְרַיִם, both feared by
          > אֲרָם). Hence it appears that
          > הַחִתִּי (םׅ had
          > their proper seat in the north — where also they were encountered by
          > Assyrians
          > from time of Tiglath-Pileser I (see Schr Dl1. c.), and by Egyptians from
          > time of
          > Tutmes III (see W Max Müll.l.c.) — (compare also Judges 3:3; Joshua 11:3
          > above),
          > but that individual Hittites were known in Israel (compare, besides 1
          > Samuel
          > 2:6; 2 Samuel 11:3 etc., 1 Kings 9:20 above); that the Hittites were
          > regarded
          > (by J E D) as one of the peoples of Canaan, and that the name even came to
          > be
          > used in more General sense for Canaanites. Only in P do they appear as
          > having a
          > definite settlement in the south, and are designated by
          > בְּנֵיחֵֿת (see
          > חֵת), as well as by the adjective
          > הַחִתִּי.
          >
          >
          > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, lloyd barre <lmbarre@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Right. The Canaanites are not the Hittites. That's obvious.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • stinehartjimr
          Lloyd Barre: You wrote; Hittites migrated into Canaan. No. Never happened. But per the Amarna Letters, Hurrian charioteers dominated the ruling class of
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 19, 2013
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            Lloyd Barre:

            You wrote; "Hittites migrated into Canaan."

            No. Never happened. But per the Amarna Letters, Hurrian charioteers dominated the ruling class of Canaan during the Amarna Age.

            Jim Stinehart








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          • Holly
            Hey LM: Moses was an Aramaean. He may have been named after an ancestor, Mash (Gen 10:23). Mash means walker in Arabic. It has the exact meaning of Shasu in
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 21, 2013
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              Hey LM:

              Moses was an Aramaean. He may have been named after an ancestor, Mash (Gen 10:23). Mash means 'walker' in Arabic. It has the exact meaning of Shasu in ancient Egyptian. According to Gen 10:23-32, Aram was a descendant of Shem and they originated on the southern coast of the Arabian Peninsula as is indicated in the names Joktan (Qahtan in Arabic), Sheba (Sabeans), Ophir (meaning super abundance in Arabic), and Havilah (also means super abundance). Ophir and Havilah are names for the incense producing regions on the southern coast of the Arabian Peninsula and they refer to Yemen, Oman and very possibly Abyssinia (Ethiopia). The Sabeans were trading partners with the Judeans, the Israelites and the Tyreans. For a full list of Judea's trading partners see Ezekiel 27. Also see Deut 26:5 which explains that Moses was an Aramaean:

              Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD your God, 'A wandering Aramean was my father; and he went down into Egypt and sojourned there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great, mighty, and populous

              Mshh is the Hebraic form of the Arabic word Mshy which means to walk. The 'y' suffix in Arabic often becomes the 'h' suffix in Hebrew. Again 'msh', the name of Moses' ancestor, means 'walker' in Arabic or 'shasu' in ancient Egyptian. The Hebrew and the Midianites with whom they were associated were the Shasu to the Egyptians.

              Holly

              --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, lloyd barre <lmbarre@...> wrote:
              >
              > Most people think the Mose is Egyptian, like Tut-mose, Ramoses and so on.
              > Moses was an Egyptian so his name is Egyptian.
              >
            • nu_cee
              Your quote of Deu 26:5 And you shall make response before the LORD your God, A wandering Aramean was my father; .... This does not appear to be presented in
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 21, 2013
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                Your quote of Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD your
                God, 'A wandering
                Aramean was my father; ...."

                This does not appear to be presented in the KingJames version...
                It states "a wandering Syrian"... I do gather the "wandering" relation
                to Shasu, however, a question arises as to your removal of Syrian to
                Aramean. Please advise.

                nucee/nuchamber

                --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Holly" wrote:
                >
                > Hey LM:
                >
                > Moses was an Aramaean. He may have been named after an ancestor, Mash
                (Gen 10:23). Mash means 'walker' in Arabic. It has the exact meaning of
                Shasu in ancient Egyptian. According to Gen 10:23-32, Aram was a
                descendant of Shem and they originated on the southern coast of the
                Arabian Peninsula as is indicated in the names Joktan (Qahtan in
                Arabic), Sheba (Sabeans), Ophir (meaning super abundance in Arabic), and
                Havilah (also means super abundance). Ophir and Havilah are names for
                the incense producing regions on the southern coast of the Arabian
                Peninsula and they refer to Yemen, Oman and very possibly Abyssinia
                (Ethiopia). The Sabeans were trading partners with the Judeans, the
                Israelites and the Tyreans. For a full list of Judea's trading partners
                see Ezekiel 27. Also see Deut 26:5 which explains that Moses was an
                Aramaean:
                >
                > Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD your God, 'A
                wandering Aramean was my father; and he went down into Egypt and
                sojourned there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great,
                mighty, and populous
                >
                > Mshh is the Hebraic form of the Arabic word Mshy which means to walk.
                The 'y' suffix in Arabic often becomes the 'h' suffix in Hebrew. Again
                'msh', the name of Moses' ancestor, means 'walker' in Arabic or 'shasu'
                in ancient Egyptian. The Hebrew and the Midianites with whom they were
                associated were the Shasu to the Egyptians.
                >
                > Holly
                >
                > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, lloyd barre lmbarre@
                wrote:
                > >
                > > Most people think the Mose is Egyptian, like Tut-mose, Ramoses and
                so on.
                > > Moses was an Egyptian so his name is Egyptian.
                > >
                >
              • Holly
                Nucee Here is the English transliteration of the Hebrew in Deut 26:5. As you will read the word is arammi or Aramaean and not Syrian. wa anita wa amarta
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 22, 2013
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                  Nucee

                  Here is the English transliteration of the Hebrew in Deut 26:5. As you will read the word is 'arammi' or Aramaean and not Syrian.

                  wa anita wa amarta lipna YHWH eloheka ARAMMI (Aramaean)abed abi wayyered misraymah (Egypt) wayyagar sam bimte me'at way hi sam legow gadowl

                  Holly

                  --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nu_cee" <nuchamber@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Your quote of Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD your
                  > God, 'A wandering
                  > Aramean was my father; ...."
                  >
                  > This does not appear to be presented in the KingJames version...
                  > It states "a wandering Syrian"... I do gather the "wandering" relation
                  > to Shasu, however, a question arises as to your removal of Syrian to
                  > Aramean. Please advise.
                  >
                  > nucee/nuchamber
                  >
                  > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Holly" wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hey LM:
                  > >
                  > > Moses was an Aramaean. He may have been named after an ancestor, Mash
                  > (Gen 10:23). Mash means 'walker' in Arabic. It has the exact meaning of
                  > Shasu in ancient Egyptian. According to Gen 10:23-32, Aram was a
                  > descendant of Shem and they originated on the southern coast of the
                  > Arabian Peninsula as is indicated in the names Joktan (Qahtan in
                  > Arabic), Sheba (Sabeans), Ophir (meaning super abundance in Arabic), and
                  > Havilah (also means super abundance). Ophir and Havilah are names for
                  > the incense producing regions on the southern coast of the Arabian
                  > Peninsula and they refer to Yemen, Oman and very possibly Abyssinia
                  > (Ethiopia). The Sabeans were trading partners with the Judeans, the
                  > Israelites and the Tyreans. For a full list of Judea's trading partners
                  > see Ezekiel 27. Also see Deut 26:5 which explains that Moses was an
                  > Aramaean:
                  > >
                  > > Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD your God, 'A
                  > wandering Aramean was my father; and he went down into Egypt and
                  > sojourned there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great,
                  > mighty, and populous
                  > >
                  > > Mshh is the Hebraic form of the Arabic word Mshy which means to walk.
                  > The 'y' suffix in Arabic often becomes the 'h' suffix in Hebrew. Again
                  > 'msh', the name of Moses' ancestor, means 'walker' in Arabic or 'shasu'
                  > in ancient Egyptian. The Hebrew and the Midianites with whom they were
                  > associated were the Shasu to the Egyptians.
                  > >
                  > > Holly
                  > >
                  > > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, lloyd barre lmbarre@
                  > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Most people think the Mose is Egyptian, like Tut-mose, Ramoses and
                  > so on.
                  > > > Moses was an Egyptian so his name is Egyptian.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • nu_cee
                  Hello Holly, Another question arises as to why Syrian and not Aramaean. Any ideas? nucee/nuchamber ... will read the word is arammi or Aramaean and not
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 26, 2013
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                    Hello Holly,

                    Another question arises as to why Syrian and not Aramaean. Any ideas?

                    nucee/nuchamber

                    --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Holly" wrote:
                    >
                    > Nucee
                    >
                    > Here is the English transliteration of the Hebrew in Deut 26:5. As you
                    will read the word is 'arammi' or Aramaean and not Syrian.
                    >
                    > wa anita wa amarta lipna YHWH eloheka ARAMMI (Aramaean)abed abi
                    wayyered misraymah (Egypt) wayyagar sam bimte me'at way hi sam legow
                    gadowl
                    >
                    > Holly
                    >
                    > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nu_cee" nuchamber@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Your quote of Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD
                    your
                    > > God, 'A wandering
                    > > Aramean was my father; ...."
                    > >
                    > > This does not appear to be presented in the KingJames version...
                    > > It states "a wandering Syrian"... I do gather the "wandering"
                    relation
                    > > to Shasu, however, a question arises as to your removal of Syrian to
                    > > Aramean. Please advise.
                    > >
                    > > nucee/nuchamber
                    > >
                    > > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Holly" wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hey LM:
                    > > >
                    > > > Moses was an Aramaean. He may have been named after an ancestor,
                    Mash
                    > > (Gen 10:23). Mash means 'walker' in Arabic. It has the exact meaning
                    of
                    > > Shasu in ancient Egyptian. According to Gen 10:23-32, Aram was a
                    > > descendant of Shem and they originated on the southern coast of the
                    > > Arabian Peninsula as is indicated in the names Joktan (Qahtan in
                    > > Arabic), Sheba (Sabeans), Ophir (meaning super abundance in Arabic),
                    and
                    > > Havilah (also means super abundance). Ophir and Havilah are names
                    for
                    > > the incense producing regions on the southern coast of the Arabian
                    > > Peninsula and they refer to Yemen, Oman and very possibly Abyssinia
                    > > (Ethiopia). The Sabeans were trading partners with the Judeans, the
                    > > Israelites and the Tyreans. For a full list of Judea's trading
                    partners
                    > > see Ezekiel 27. Also see Deut 26:5 which explains that Moses was an
                    > > Aramaean:
                    > > >
                    > > > Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD your God, 'A
                    > > wandering Aramean was my father; and he went down into Egypt and
                    > > sojourned there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great,
                    > > mighty, and populous
                    > > >
                    > > > Mshh is the Hebraic form of the Arabic word Mshy which means to
                    walk.
                    > > The 'y' suffix in Arabic often becomes the 'h' suffix in Hebrew.
                    Again
                    > > 'msh', the name of Moses' ancestor, means 'walker' in Arabic or
                    'shasu'
                    > > in ancient Egyptian. The Hebrew and the Midianites with whom they
                    were
                    > > associated were the Shasu to the Egyptians.
                    > > >
                    > > > Holly
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, lloyd barre lmbarre@
                    > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Most people think the Mose is Egyptian, like Tut-mose, Ramoses
                    and
                    > > so on.
                    > > > > Moses was an Egyptian so his name is Egyptian.
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Holly
                    Nucee: It is thought that these Semites originated as a tribal federation in Syria. Holly
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 26, 2013
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                      Nucee:

                      It is thought that these Semites originated as a tribal federation in Syria.

                      Holly

                      --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nu_cee" <nuchamber@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Holly,
                      >
                      > Another question arises as to why Syrian and not Aramaean. Any ideas?
                      >
                      > nucee/nuchamber
                      >
                      > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Holly" wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Nucee
                      > >
                      > > Here is the English transliteration of the Hebrew in Deut 26:5. As you
                      > will read the word is 'arammi' or Aramaean and not Syrian.
                      > >
                      > > wa anita wa amarta lipna YHWH eloheka ARAMMI (Aramaean)abed abi
                      > wayyered misraymah (Egypt) wayyagar sam bimte me'at way hi sam legow
                      > gadowl
                      > >
                      > > Holly
                      > >
                      > > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "nu_cee" nuchamber@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Your quote of Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD
                      > your
                      > > > God, 'A wandering
                      > > > Aramean was my father; ...."
                      > > >
                      > > > This does not appear to be presented in the KingJames version...
                      > > > It states "a wandering Syrian"... I do gather the "wandering"
                      > relation
                      > > > to Shasu, however, a question arises as to your removal of Syrian to
                      > > > Aramean. Please advise.
                      > > >
                      > > > nucee/nuchamber
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Holly" wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hey LM:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Moses was an Aramaean. He may have been named after an ancestor,
                      > Mash
                      > > > (Gen 10:23). Mash means 'walker' in Arabic. It has the exact meaning
                      > of
                      > > > Shasu in ancient Egyptian. According to Gen 10:23-32, Aram was a
                      > > > descendant of Shem and they originated on the southern coast of the
                      > > > Arabian Peninsula as is indicated in the names Joktan (Qahtan in
                      > > > Arabic), Sheba (Sabeans), Ophir (meaning super abundance in Arabic),
                      > and
                      > > > Havilah (also means super abundance). Ophir and Havilah are names
                      > for
                      > > > the incense producing regions on the southern coast of the Arabian
                      > > > Peninsula and they refer to Yemen, Oman and very possibly Abyssinia
                      > > > (Ethiopia). The Sabeans were trading partners with the Judeans, the
                      > > > Israelites and the Tyreans. For a full list of Judea's trading
                      > partners
                      > > > see Ezekiel 27. Also see Deut 26:5 which explains that Moses was an
                      > > > Aramaean:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Deu 26:5 "And you shall make response before the LORD your God, 'A
                      > > > wandering Aramean was my father; and he went down into Egypt and
                      > > > sojourned there, few in number; and there he became a nation, great,
                      > > > mighty, and populous
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Mshh is the Hebraic form of the Arabic word Mshy which means to
                      > walk.
                      > > > The 'y' suffix in Arabic often becomes the 'h' suffix in Hebrew.
                      > Again
                      > > > 'msh', the name of Moses' ancestor, means 'walker' in Arabic or
                      > 'shasu'
                      > > > in ancient Egyptian. The Hebrew and the Midianites with whom they
                      > were
                      > > > associated were the Shasu to the Egyptians.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Holly
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, lloyd barre lmbarre@
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Most people think the Mose is Egyptian, like Tut-mose, Ramoses
                      > and
                      > > > so on.
                      > > > > > Moses was an Egyptian so his name is Egyptian.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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