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Re: ABH Re: Wikipedia discussion on the Kenite hypothesis & Moses' association with coppersmiths & metalworkers

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  • stinehartjimr
    Nucee: You wrote: “ButJim how do you intersect your understandings concerning the Hurrians and theorigin of the Midians?” That was largely in response to
    Message 1 of 6 , May 4, 2013
      Nucee:

      You wrote: “ButJim how do you intersect your understandings concerning the Hurrians and theorigin of the Midians?”

      That was largely in response to Louis Demarestquoting the following from Wikipedia: “TheKenites were coppersmiths and metalworkers. Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, was a shepherd anda priest in the land of Midian. Judges 1:16 identifies that Moses had afather-in-law who was a Kenite, but it is not clear from the passage if thisrefers to the same Jethro who was the priest of Midian.”

      1. Kenite

      “Kenite” is the King James Version (KJV)mis-transliteration of one of the many colorful Patriarchal nicknames for theHurrians. “Kenite” is the attestedHurrian personal name Qa-a-ni-ia : QYNY :qof-yod-nun-yod. When the Hurrian truevowel A is its own separate cuneiform sign, as here, Biblical Hebrew representsthat as yod/Y. The name means “God [Teshup]Is Firm”, where ka-nu is a loanword into Hurrian from Akkadian meaning “to befirm”, and is sometimes spelled in Hurrian as qa-a-ni. -ia is a near-universal theophoric suffix inmany ancient languages, especially in Hurrian. The following six names at Genesis 15: 19-21 are all attested Hurrianpersonal names, which are used by the early Hebrew author in Year 14 ascolorful nicknames for the Hurrians: (i) Xu-ti-ia : XTY : ‘Hittites’; (ii) Piri-zi-ia : PRZY : ‘Perizzites’; (iii) Ge-ra-ge-$e-ia: GRG$Y : ‘Girgashites’; (iv) A-bu-u-$e-ia : YBWSY : ‘Jebusites’; (v) Qa-a-ni-ia : QYNY ‘Kenites’;(vi) Qa-ni-zi-ia : QNZY ‘Kenizzites’. The scholarly community says that all six ofthose names are inexplicable. But that’sthe case only if one does not consider a Hurrian interpretation for those sixLate Bronze Age Hurrian names. LaterBiblical authors knew that these six peoples were all Hurrians. For example, later Kenites in the Bibleinvariably have Hurrian names, such as “Jael” and “Heber”. “Jael” is not a west Semitic woman’s namemeaning “Male Ibex”, for heaven’s sake, but rather is a Hurrian name meaning“[Hurrian] Noblewoman”.

      2. Jethro

      YT-RW : A-ta -- Er-wi : “[the divine] Father Is Lord” :yod-tav-resh-vav.

      a-ta or at-ta is theHurrian common word for “father”. Aswith Hebrew names, “father” in a proper name almost always means “the divineFather”. A-ta is rendered as YT inHebrew where, as always in the Hebrew rendering of Hurrian names, Hebrew yod/Yrepresents the Hurrian true vowel A as its own separate cuneiform sign(especially where, as here, in initial position it’s its own separate syllable). In fact, more Hurrian names begin with theHurrian true vowel A than any other letter, so it was absolutely necessary todesignate some alphabetical Hebrew letter to render the Hurrian vowel A, andthat letter should not otherwise be needed in rendering Hurrian names. Hebrew yod/Y fit the bill perfectly.

      Er-wi is one the best-knownHurrian common words. It means “lord” or“to be lord”. Er-wi is RW inHebrew. RW is the root of the name “Araunah”(’RWN -H at II Samuel 24: 20, with a prosthetic aleph at the beginning, the Hebrewword -na near the end meaning “the”, plus -H as a Semiticization), which is oneof only three Biblical names that is generally recognized as being a Hurrianname.

      Note that Jethro’s namemakes perfect sense as the name of a Hurrian priest.

      Jethro, as a Hurrianpriest, naturally gave his daughter Zipporah a Hurrian name. Zipporah : CPR -H :sa-ap-ri + Semiticization : ssade-peh-resh-he. The Hurrian common word sa-ap-rimeans “angry”, and can imply “tempestuous”. The final -H is a Semiticization, meaning that Zipporah eventuallybecame committed to staying with the Hebrews in or near Canaan, rather than returningto Mesopotamia to resume her old Hurrian ways, per Exodus 18: 2.

      CPR/sa-ap-ri means “angry” or “tempestuous” as a Hurrian common word, andZipporah definitely seems “tempestuous”, and even “angry”, in the ambiguous,famous incident related at Exodus 4: 25 (which is one of only three Bibleverses that mention her name): “ThenZipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast [it]at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband [art] thou to me.” By contrast, Zipporah definitely does not actlike “a little bird”, so the conventional west Semitic etymology of her name,based on CPWR in Hebrew meaning “a little bird”, is untenable.

      One important key tounderstanding the Bible is to be willing to give a Hurrian interpretation ofthe many Hurrian names in the Bible, instead of insisting upon a traditionalwest Semitic misinterpretation of these Biblical Hurrian names. “Jethro” and “Zipporah” are Hurrian names.

      3. Midian

      “Midian” is the KJVmis-transliteration of MDYN : mem-dalet-yod-nun. As with all Hurrian names in the Bible,Hebrew yod/Y is used to represent the Hurrian true vowel A. MDYN is a slightly abbreviated version of theHurrians’ name for their own country in eastern Syria, which has the followingfull-form spelling in Akkadian-style cuneiform:

      mi-id-ta-a-an-ni

      To render that Hurrian namein alphabetical Hebrew, it is conceptualized as being:

      mi-da-a-ni

      That results in the Hebrewletters MDYN (where Hebrew yod/Y renders the Hurrian true vowel A).

      Everything that is saidabout MDYN in the Patriarchal narratives and Exodus fits the Late Bronze Agestate of Midtani perfectly. Keturah hasa Hurrian name herself, and names two of her sons after her homeland, MDYN andMDN. Those two sons (along with the restof Keturah’s sons) are fittingly eventually sent off to their mother’shomeland: “eastward, unto the eastcountry”, that is, to the Late Bronze Age Hurrian great power state of Midtaniin eastern Syria, being “east” of Canaan. Genesis 25: 6 The Ishmaelitetraders in chapter 37 of Genesis hail from MDYN/Midtani (though they are notethnic Hurrians). As they are passingthrough Canaan going southwest on their way to Egypt, they pick up Joseph as aslave and take him to Egypt.

      In Exodus, MDYN is neverdescribed as being a desert, nor is anyone said to live in tents there. By the time of the 13th centuryBCE Exodus, MDYN as a coherent Hurrian state was fast on its way to extinction,but the name MDYN/mi-da-a-ni remained in use for another century or so as areference to eastern Syria, which had been the homeland of the Hurrians.

      * * *

      “Kenite” and “Jethro” and “Zipporah”and “Midian” are all vintage Hurrian names that are well-attested. The traditional west Semiticmisunderstandings of these four Late Bronze Age names are lamentable. Until such time as scholars show somewillingness to consider giving a Hurrian interpretation to Hurrian names,rather than the traditional west Semitic misinterpretations of these BiblicalHurrian names, the pinpoint historical accuracy of the Patriarchal narrativesin a Years 12-14 context will continue to elude scholars.

      Jim Stinehart









      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • lloyd barre
      The Hurrians and the Midianites are not particularly related. Barre ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Message 2 of 6 , May 7, 2013
        The Hurrians and the Midianites are not particularly related.

        Barre'

        On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:15 AM, nu_cee <nuchamber@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Hello Jim Stinehart,
        >
        > and thank you Louis for your below presentation. But Jim how do you
        > intersect your understandings concerning the Hurrians and the origin of
        > the Midians?
        >
        > regards,
        > nucee/nuchamber
        >
        > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, LOUIS DEMAREST wrote:
        > >
        > > Â
        > > ....a brief, but interesting discussion from WikipediaÂ
        > theorizing Moses'Â life
        > > among the Midianites
        > > Â
        > > Kenites or Cinites (pron.:Â
        > /ˈkiË naɪt/; Hebrew:Â ×§×™× ×™× ,Â
        > Hebrew
        > > pronunciation: [qiˈnim]), according to the Hebrew Bible,
        > were a nomadic clan in
        > > the ancient Levant, sent under Jethro a priest in the land
        > of Midian.[1] They
        > > played an important role in the history of ancient Israel. The
        > Kenites were
        > > coppersmiths and metalworkers.[1]Â Moses' father-in-law,Â
        > Jethro, was a shepherd
        > > and a priest in the land of Midian. Judges 1:16 identifies
        > that Moses had a
        > > father-in-law who was a Kenite, but it is not clear from the passage
        > if this
        > > refers to the same Jethro who was the priest of Midian. Certain groups
        > of
        > > Kenites settled among the Israelite population, including the
        > descendants of
        > > Moses' brother-in-law,[2] though the Kenites descended from
        > Rechab, maintained a
        > > distinct, nomadic lifestyle for some time. Moses
        > apparently[clarification
        > > needed] identified Jethro's concept of God, El Shaddai,
        > with Yahweh, the
        > > Israelites' God.[1]
        > > According to the Kenite hypothesis, Yahweh was
        > historically a Midian deity, and
        > > the association of Moses' father-in-law being associated with Midian
        > reflects
        > > the historical adoption of the Midianite cult by theÂ
        > Hebrews.[1][3][4]
        > > ------------------
        > > It is probable that Yahu or Yahweh was worshipped in southern Canaan
        > > (Edom, Moab,Midian) from the 14th century BC, and that this cult
        > was transmitted
        > > northwards due to the Kenites. This "Kenite hypothesis" was originally
        > suggested
        > > by Cornelius Tiele in 1872 and remains the standard view among
        > modern
        > > scholars.[11]Â In its classical form suggested by Tiele, the
        > "Kenite hypothesis"
        > > assumes that Moses was a historical Midianite who
        > brought the cult of Yahweh
        > > north to Israel. This idea is based on an old tradition (recorded
        > in Judges1:16,
        > > 4:11) that Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite priest of Yahweh, as
        > it were
        > > preserving a memory of the Midianite origin of the god. While the role
        > of the
        > > Kenites in the transmission of the cult is widely accepted, the
        > historical role
        > > of Moses finds less support in modern scholarship.
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • lloyd barre
        There is no strong evidence that the Hurrians are mentioned in the Bible. Not the Horites, not the Hivites. Dr. Barre ... [Non-text portions of this message
        Message 3 of 6 , May 7, 2013
          There is no strong evidence that the Hurrians are mentioned in the Bible.
          Not the Horites, not the Hivites.

          Dr. Barre'

          On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 6:15 AM, nu_cee <nuchamber@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > Hello Jim Stinehart,
          >
          > and thank you Louis for your below presentation. But Jim how do you
          > intersect your understandings concerning the Hurrians and the origin of
          > the Midians?
          >
          > regards,
          > nucee/nuchamber
          >
          > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, LOUIS DEMAREST wrote:
          > >
          > > Â
          > > ....a brief, but interesting discussion from WikipediaÂ
          > theorizing Moses'Â life
          > > among the Midianites
          > > Â
          > > Kenites or Cinites (pron.:Â
          > /ˈkiË naɪt/; Hebrew:Â ×§×™× ×™× ,Â
          > Hebrew
          > > pronunciation: [qiˈnim]), according to the Hebrew Bible,
          > were a nomadic clan in
          > > the ancient Levant, sent under Jethro a priest in the land
          > of Midian.[1] They
          > > played an important role in the history of ancient Israel. The
          > Kenites were
          > > coppersmiths and metalworkers.[1]Â Moses' father-in-law,Â
          > Jethro, was a shepherd
          > > and a priest in the land of Midian. Judges 1:16 identifies
          > that Moses had a
          > > father-in-law who was a Kenite, but it is not clear from the passage
          > if this
          > > refers to the same Jethro who was the priest of Midian. Certain groups
          > of
          > > Kenites settled among the Israelite population, including the
          > descendants of
          > > Moses' brother-in-law,[2] though the Kenites descended from
          > Rechab, maintained a
          > > distinct, nomadic lifestyle for some time. Moses
          > apparently[clarification
          > > needed] identified Jethro's concept of God, El Shaddai,
          > with Yahweh, the
          > > Israelites' God.[1]
          > > According to the Kenite hypothesis, Yahweh was
          > historically a Midian deity, and
          > > the association of Moses' father-in-law being associated with Midian
          > reflects
          > > the historical adoption of the Midianite cult by theÂ
          > Hebrews.[1][3][4]
          > > ------------------
          > > It is probable that Yahu or Yahweh was worshipped in southern Canaan
          > > (Edom, Moab,Midian) from the 14th century BC, and that this cult
          > was transmitted
          > > northwards due to the Kenites. This "Kenite hypothesis" was originally
          > suggested
          > > by Cornelius Tiele in 1872 and remains the standard view among
          > modern
          > > scholars.[11]Â In its classical form suggested by Tiele, the
          > "Kenite hypothesis"
          > > assumes that Moses was a historical Midianite who
          > brought the cult of Yahweh
          > > north to Israel. This idea is based on an old tradition (recorded
          > in Judges1:16,
          > > 4:11) that Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite priest of Yahweh, as
          > it were
          > > preserving a memory of the Midianite origin of the god. While the role
          > of the
          > > Kenites in the transmission of the cult is widely accepted, the
          > historical role
          > > of Moses finds less support in modern scholarship.
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • lloyd barre
          As ususal, Wikipedia is on spot in its scholarship. LM Barre , PhD On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:50 PM, LOUIS DEMAREST ... [Non-text portions of this message have
          Message 4 of 6 , May 7, 2013
            As ususal, Wikipedia is on spot in its scholarship.

            LM Barre', PhD

            On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 11:50 PM, LOUIS DEMAREST
            <LOUISDEMAREST@...>wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            >
            > ....a brief, but interesting discussion from Wikipedia theorizing
            > Moses' life
            > among the Midianites
            >
            > Kenites or Cinites (pron.: /ˈkiːnaɪt/; Hebrew: קינים, Hebrew
            > pronunciation: [qiˈnim]), according to the Hebrew Bible, were a nomadic
            > clan in
            > the ancient Levant, sent under Jethro a priest in the land
            > of Midian.[1] They
            > played an important role in the history of ancient Israel. The Kenites
            > were
            > coppersmiths and metalworkers.[1] Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, was a
            > shepherd
            > and a priest in the land of Midian. Judges 1:16 identifies that Moses had
            > a
            > father-in-law who was a Kenite, but it is not clear from the passage if
            > this
            > refers to the same Jethro who was the priest of Midian. Certain groups of
            > Kenites settled among the Israelite population, including the descendants
            > of
            > Moses' brother-in-law,[2] though the Kenites descended from Rechab,
            > maintained a
            > distinct, nomadic lifestyle for some time. Moses apparently[clarification
            > needed] identified Jethro's concept of God, El Shaddai, with Yahweh, the
            > Israelites' God.[1]
            > According to the Kenite hypothesis, Yahweh was historically a Midian
            > deity, and
            > the association of Moses' father-in-law being associated with Midian
            > reflects
            > the historical adoption of the Midianite cult by the Hebrews.[1][3][4]
            > ------------------
            > It is probable that Yahu or Yahweh was worshipped in southern Canaan
            > (Edom, Moab,Midian) from the 14th century BC, and that this cult was
            > transmitted
            > northwards due to the Kenites. This "Kenite hypothesis" was originally
            > suggested
            > by Cornelius Tiele in 1872 and remains the standard view among modern
            > scholars.[11] In its classical form suggested by Tiele, the "Kenite
            > hypothesis"
            > assumes that Moses was a historical Midianite who brought the cult of
            > Yahweh
            > north to Israel. This idea is based on an old tradition (recorded
            > in Judges1:16,
            > 4:11) that Moses' father-in-law was a Midianite priest of Yahweh, as it
            > were
            > preserving a memory of the Midianite origin of the god. While the role of
            > the
            > Kenites in the transmission of the cult is widely accepted, the historical
            > role
            > of Moses finds less support in modern scholarship.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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