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Re: ABH Re: Sumer/Samar/Samarra/Samaria & the Samaritans

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  • willphoenix1@gmail.com
    Hey Holly, All, So here are just a couple of immediate thoughts I have on all this. And forgive me if I ask questions that seem simple. Again, I m new at ABH
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1, 2012
      Hey Holly, All,

      So here are just a couple of immediate thoughts I have on all this. And forgive me if I ask questions that seem simple. Again, I'm new at ABH research, and currently I'm not in a position to do research before responding.

      Holly, you said, "


      Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone

      -----Original Message-----
      From: "Holly" <gmrf@...>
      Sender: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:27:30
      To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
      Reply-To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: ABH Re: Sumer/Samar/Samarra/Samaria & the Samaritans

      Attila & Willliam:

      The topic of YHWH of Samaria interested me and led me to this site:

      http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/42TurkicAndSumer/ZakievGenesisSumersEn.htm

      Here are a few quotes that you may find intriguing:

      The aboriginals of the Asia Minor and Central Asia represented some mountains to the Greeks under a name Oksiy. That, apparently, were the mountains from which were flowing clear rivers. Oksiy is from the T�rkic oksay/oksuy/oksiy: ak/ok "white, pure", su/say/siy "river".

      The same aboriginals called different rivers with the words Araks, Oks, Tanais which were nominal words: Araks comes from the T�rkic aryk/arak "River, Canal"; Oks C from the T�rkic aksu/oksu "White, Pure River"; Tanais comes from the T�rkic tynys/tynych "quiet, calm", etc. [Piyankov I.V., 1997, 283-284].
      end quote

      The above quote brings to mind the Sumerian city of Uruk (Iraq) which apparently means 'river' (Araks) in Turkic, which is a very apt name for a city in Mesopotamia. Another interesting quote is:

      The evidence of the presence of the ancient T�rkic-speaking area in the the Near East and Asia Minor remove the question what T�rkic language affected the Sumerian. The fact is that in the records of the Akkadian sources the region to the south of Bagdad was called Kienkir (Kangar), there lived Sumerians, and the region to the north of Bagdad carried the name Subartu, there lived Subars. Sumerians did not call themselves Sumerians, their endoethnonym was Kangarli or Kangar. In Herodotus this ethnonym is found as angareon (see sect. 46 of this book). Akkadians and other peoples called Kangars "Sumerians" or "Shumerians", and this ethnonym they borrowed from the Subars, i.e. both Kangars (Sumerians), and Subars they called by the ethnonym Subar [Firidun Agasyoglu, 2000, 157], which in various language and dialect environments was pronounced differently: Sumar/Sumer/Shumer/Samar/Suar/Sabir/Savir/Sibir, etc.
      end quote

      Apparently the name Sumer was alternatively pronounced as Samar. It is currently thought that the Sumerians derived from the Samarran culture (Iraqi city of Samarra) aka the Ubaidian culture. The word Sumeru (Shomeru) is the Akkadian designation for 'kien gir' meaning the native land, which was the Sumerian endoethnohym for themselves.I know that Samaria was known as Shomron (meaning 'watchers' in Hebrew which makes no sense) to the Hebrews, a word that is obviously derived from the Akkadian Shomeru/Sumeru. There seems to be a connection between the origins of the 'Cutheans' (aka Samaritans) who were transported to Samaria by the Assyrians and the Sumerians/Samarians who from Sumer. The original name the Sumerians used for themselves was �ĝ saĝ g�g-ga, which means "the black headed people." Arabic preserves the original meaning of Sumer/Shomer. Smr (samura) means to turn brown in Arabic. So, if these Samaritan transplants were viewed as coming from the land of the black headed people (Shmr/smr or the dark ones), this would indicate that the name Samaria is derived from the Akkadian word for the black headed people which would be Shomer in Akkadian/Assyrian and Smr in Arabic. The Sumerians had long been an extinct empire by 722 BCE, when the Assyrians conquered Israel. However, I thought it was very interesting that their Akkadian designation, (Shomeru/Sumeru/Samaru) seems to have survived in the Hebrew as Samaria (Shomron) and in Iraq as Samarra.

      Take Care
      Holly




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • willphoenix1@gmail.com
      Hey Holly, All,So here are just a couple of immediate thoughts I have on all this. And forgive me if I ask questions that seem simple. Again, I m new at ABH
      Message 2 of 8 , May 1, 2012
        Hey Holly, All,

        So here are just a couple of immediate thoughts I have on all this. And forgive me if I ask questions that seem simple. Again, I'm new at ABH research, and currently I'm not in a position to do research before responding.

        Holly, you quoted, "The evidence of the presence of the ancient T�rkic-speaking area in the the Near East and Asia Minor remove the question what T�rkic language affected the Sumerian."

        Reply:

        As far as I am aware, this is true. I'm fascinated by languages, specifically the IE languages. As I understand it, Hittite is the progenitor of the IE languages, though is more comprised of the Semetic Akkaadian languages, which was of course influenced by Sumerian (which is not Semitic).

        Holly, you said, "The fact is that in the records of the Akkaadian sources the region to the south of Baghdad was called Kienkir (Kangar)..."

        Reply:

        Ki.en.gir makes sense. This means "Land/Earth (ki) of civilized or high (gir) lords (en)", and the Sumerians were highly aware of their civilization. Furthermore, what's interesting - and not sure why it didn't dawn on me before, AND correlates with the Assyrian invasion/Sumerian civilization no longer existing - is that "Sumer" or "Sumeru", which is Akkaddian, has been translated as "Native Land" (again, Ki.En.Gir is *not* "native land"). Why would anyone call a place their "native land" unless they no longer lived there? They wouldn't. This obviously implies that "Sumeru" was associated with a peoples who had left their "home land". Perhaps its the Akkaadian? I'm not sure as I have not gotten that far in my research.

        Holly, you said, "I know that Samaria was known as Shomron (meaning 'watchers' in Hebrew which makes no sense) to the Hebrews, a word that is obviously derived from the Akkaadian Shomeru/Sumeru."

        Reply:

        I'm fascinated by the association of "Shomron" meaning "watchers". My first thought is that Shomron is in the north of Israel, and was known for having been built around a tall hill (Hill of Shomron). It could simply mean that they were acknowledged as "guardians" of the northern lands of Israel. I also know that Shomron was Samaria first, and was changed with the capital of Israel was moved from Tirzah to Shomron (I believe that's right). However, all that said, "shomron" could have other attributes in its meaning, and I'm excited to find out what they are.

        Finally, what are the implications of all this in association with "Yahweh of Samaria"? I wonder, is it a connection for Yahweh to Ancient Sumer? If so, perhaps Yahweh *is* Ea/Enki as has been suspected by some experts. In many ways, this makes sense. Ea/Enki had long been in a "cold" war, if you will, with his brother Enlil. It would make sense then, if Sumer had long been disbanded, that an angry Enki would of course wish to set supremacy through the form of monotheism. Or perhaps it was the high priests of the time who wished such?

        Or, is it simply that Yahweh was a deity of the Samarian people. A deity influenced by the Sumerian culture, but only distantly. This also works because there has been correlation between the fall of Sumer and the Enlil-Enki split within the mythos. In this split, some of the Sumerian people fled west and north, bringing with them their culture (Enki went "west"). It could very well be that a son, or grandson, or deity who aligned with Enki, took up Enki's battle to protect humanity from Enlil's rage and hate for people. This works well with Psalms 82 where Yahweh goes before the Elohim and demands fair treatment to just people and to stop defending the "wicked". AND, works well with El/Enlil's allotting territory to the Elohim, and perhaps, after Yahweh's demands, El gives Israel to Yahweh. After all, Israel means, as I understand, "El's Struggle".

        Fascinating...

        Regards,

        William Apple
        Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone

        -----Original Message-----
        From: willphoenix1@...
        Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 12:14:29
        To: Ancient Bible History<AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
        Reply-To: willphoenix1@...
        Subject: Re: ABH Re: Sumer/Samar/Samarra/Samaria & the Samaritans

        Hey Holly, All,

        So here are just a couple of immediate thoughts I have on all this. And forgive me if I ask questions that seem simple. Again, I'm new at ABH research, and currently I'm not in a position to do research before responding.

        Holly, you said, "


        Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone

        -----Original Message-----
        From: "Holly" <gmrf@...>
        Sender: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:27:30
        To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
        Reply-To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: ABH Re: Sumer/Samar/Samarra/Samaria & the Samaritans

        Attila & Willliam:

        The topic of YHWH of Samaria interested me and led me to this site:

        http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/42TurkicAndSumer/ZakievGenesisSumersEn.htm

        Here are a few quotes that you may find intriguing:

        The aboriginals of the Asia Minor and Central Asia represented some mountains to the Greeks under a name Oksiy. That, apparently, were the mountains from which were flowing clear rivers. Oksiy is from the T�rkic oksay/oksuy/oksiy: ak/ok "white, pure", su/say/siy "river".

        The same aboriginals called different rivers with the words Araks, Oks, Tanais which were nominal words: Araks comes from the T�rkic aryk/arak "River, Canal"; Oks C from the T�rkic aksu/oksu "White, Pure River"; Tanais comes from the T�rkic tynys/tynych "quiet, calm", etc. [Piyankov I.V., 1997, 283-284].
        end quote

        The above quote brings to mind the Sumerian city of Uruk (Iraq) which apparently means 'river' (Araks) in Turkic, which is a very apt name for a city in Mesopotamia. Another interesting quote is:

        The evidence of the presence of the ancient T�rkic-speaking area in the the Near East and Asia Minor remove the question what T�rkic language affected the Sumerian. The fact is that in the records of the Akkadian sources the region to the south of Bagdad was called Kienkir (Kangar), there lived Sumerians, and the region to the north of Bagdad carried the name Subartu, there lived Subars. Sumerians did not call themselves Sumerians, their endoethnonym was Kangarli or Kangar. In Herodotus this ethnonym is found as angareon (see sect. 46 of this book). Akkadians and other peoples called Kangars "Sumerians" or "Shumerians", and this ethnonym they borrowed from the Subars, i.e. both Kangars (Sumerians), and Subars they called by the ethnonym Subar [Firidun Agasyoglu, 2000, 157], which in various language and dialect environments was pronounced differently: Sumar/Sumer/Shumer/Samar/Suar/Sabir/Savir/Sibir, etc.
        end quote

        Apparently the name Sumer was alternatively pronounced as Samar. It is currently thought that the Sumerians derived from the Samarran culture (Iraqi city of Samarra) aka the Ubaidian culture. The word Sumeru (Shomeru) is the Akkadian designation for 'kien gir' meaning the native land, which was the Sumerian endoethnohym for themselves.I know that Samaria was known as Shomron (meaning 'watchers' in Hebrew which makes no sense) to the Hebrews, a word that is obviously derived from the Akkadian Shomeru/Sumeru. There seems to be a connection between the origins of the 'Cutheans' (aka Samaritans) who were transported to Samaria by the Assyrians and the Sumerians/Samarians who from Sumer. The original name the Sumerians used for themselves was �ĝ saĝ g�g-ga, which means "the black headed people." Arabic preserves the original meaning of Sumer/Shomer. Smr (samura) means to turn brown in Arabic. So, if these Samaritan transplants were viewed as coming from the land of the black headed people (Shmr/smr or the dark ones), this would indicate that the name Samaria is derived from the Akkadian word for the black headed people which would be Shomer in Akkadian/Assyrian and Smr in Arabic. The Sumerians had long been an extinct empire by 722 BCE, when the Assyrians conquered Israel. However, I thought it was very interesting that their Akkadian designation, (Shomeru/Sumeru/Samaru) seems to have survived in the Hebrew as Samaria (Shomron) and in Iraq as Samarra.

        Take Care
        Holly




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • willphoenix1@gmail.com
        Furthermore, In wondering about the Yahweh/Asherah connection, the information regarding Yahweh of Samaria helps. I ve been having a discussion off list
        Message 3 of 8 , May 1, 2012
          Furthermore,

          In wondering about the Yahweh/Asherah connection, the information regarding "Yahweh of Samaria" helps.

          I've been having a discussion off list about this, and the other individual in the discussion expressed the idea that "asherah" was a thing, not the deity. Come to find out, he's right, in a way. They were known as "asherim" (plural) and were "Asherah Rods" or "Asherah Groves" in Hebrew folk religion. So, it could very well be that "Yahweh and his asherah" meant "Yahweh and his sacred grove" or "Yahweh and his holy rod" (rod being a "communication" device).

          Either way, what's most interesting about all of this for me is, and in relation to the "samaria" topic, is that if indeed Samaria is a remnant of Sumerian culture, then it would make sense that Asherah would follow. But perhaps not in the form of her anthropomorphic, deified, self, but instead as a spiritual presence that resided in groves, thus making wood, and rods, sacred to her - her name and image are found carved into trees all over Israel.

          AND, if there *is* a connection between Asherah and Eve then association with trees makes even more sense.

          Wow...its been an exciting morning so far.

          Regards,

          William Apple
          Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone

          -----Original Message-----
          From: willphoenix1@...
          Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 13:30:32
          To: Ancient Bible History<AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
          Reply-To: willphoenix1@...
          Subject: Re: ABH Re: Sumer/Samar/Samarra/Samaria & the Samaritans

          Hey Holly, All,

          So here are just a couple of immediate thoughts I have on all this. And forgive me if I ask questions that seem simple. Again, I'm new at ABH research, and currently I'm not in a position to do research before responding.

          Holly, you quoted, "The evidence of the presence of the ancient T�rkic-speaking area in the the Near East and Asia Minor remove the question what T�rkic language affected the Sumerian."

          Reply:

          As far as I am aware, this is true. I'm fascinated by languages, specifically the IE languages. As I understand it, Hittite is the progenitor of the IE languages, though is more comprised of the Semetic Akkaadian languages, which was of course influenced by Sumerian (which is not Semitic).

          Holly, you said, "The fact is that in the records of the Akkaadian sources the region to the south of Baghdad was called Kienkir (Kangar)..."

          Reply:

          Ki.en.gir makes sense. This means "Land/Earth (ki) of civilized or high (gir) lords (en)", and the Sumerians were highly aware of their civilization. Furthermore, what's interesting - and not sure why it didn't dawn on me before, AND correlates with the Assyrian invasion/Sumerian civilization no longer existing - is that "Sumer" or "Sumeru", which is Akkaddian, has been translated as "Native Land" (again, Ki.En.Gir is *not* "native land"). Why would anyone call a place their "native land" unless they no longer lived there? They wouldn't. This obviously implies that "Sumeru" was associated with a peoples who had left their "home land". Perhaps its the Akkaadian? I'm not sure as I have not gotten that far in my research.

          Holly, you said, "I know that Samaria was known as Shomron (meaning 'watchers' in Hebrew which makes no sense) to the Hebrews, a word that is obviously derived from the Akkaadian Shomeru/Sumeru."

          Reply:

          I'm fascinated by the association of "Shomron" meaning "watchers". My first thought is that Shomron is in the north of Israel, and was known for having been built around a tall hill (Hill of Shomron). It could simply mean that they were acknowledged as "guardians" of the northern lands of Israel. I also know that Shomron was Samaria first, and was changed with the capital of Israel was moved from Tirzah to Shomron (I believe that's right). However, all that said, "shomron" could have other attributes in its meaning, and I'm excited to find out what they are.

          Finally, what are the implications of all this in association with "Yahweh of Samaria"? I wonder, is it a connection for Yahweh to Ancient Sumer? If so, perhaps Yahweh *is* Ea/Enki as has been suspected by some experts. In many ways, this makes sense. Ea/Enki had long been in a "cold" war, if you will, with his brother Enlil. It would make sense then, if Sumer had long been disbanded, that an angry Enki would of course wish to set supremacy through the form of monotheism. Or perhaps it was the high priests of the time who wished such?

          Or, is it simply that Yahweh was a deity of the Samarian people. A deity influenced by the Sumerian culture, but only distantly. This also works because there has been correlation between the fall of Sumer and the Enlil-Enki split within the mythos. In this split, some of the Sumerian people fled west and north, bringing with them their culture (Enki went "west"). It could very well be that a son, or grandson, or deity who aligned with Enki, took up Enki's battle to protect humanity from Enlil's rage and hate for people. This works well with Psalms 82 where Yahweh goes before the Elohim and demands fair treatment to just people and to stop defending the "wicked". AND, works well with El/Enlil's allotting territory to the Elohim, and perhaps, after Yahweh's demands, El gives Israel to Yahweh. After all, Israel means, as I understand, "El's Struggle".

          Fascinating...

          Regards,

          William Apple
          Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone

          -----Original Message-----
          From: willphoenix1@...
          Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 12:14:29
          To: Ancient Bible History<AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
          Reply-To: willphoenix1@...
          Subject: Re: ABH Re: Sumer/Samar/Samarra/Samaria & the Samaritans

          Hey Holly, All,

          So here are just a couple of immediate thoughts I have on all this. And forgive me if I ask questions that seem simple. Again, I'm new at ABH research, and currently I'm not in a position to do research before responding.

          Holly, you said, "


          Sent from my U.S. Cellular BlackBerry� smartphone

          -----Original Message-----
          From: "Holly" <gmrf@...>
          Sender: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 23:27:30
          To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
          Reply-To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: ABH Re: Sumer/Samar/Samarra/Samaria & the Samaritans

          Attila & Willliam:

          The topic of YHWH of Samaria interested me and led me to this site:

          http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/42TurkicAndSumer/ZakievGenesisSumersEn.htm

          Here are a few quotes that you may find intriguing:

          The aboriginals of the Asia Minor and Central Asia represented some mountains to the Greeks under a name Oksiy. That, apparently, were the mountains from which were flowing clear rivers. Oksiy is from the T�rkic oksay/oksuy/oksiy: ak/ok "white, pure", su/say/siy "river".

          The same aboriginals called different rivers with the words Araks, Oks, Tanais which were nominal words: Araks comes from the T�rkic aryk/arak "River, Canal"; Oks C from the T�rkic aksu/oksu "White, Pure River"; Tanais comes from the T�rkic tynys/tynych "quiet, calm", etc. [Piyankov I.V., 1997, 283-284].
          end quote

          The above quote brings to mind the Sumerian city of Uruk (Iraq) which apparently means 'river' (Araks) in Turkic, which is a very apt name for a city in Mesopotamia. Another interesting quote is:

          The evidence of the presence of the ancient T�rkic-speaking area in the the Near East and Asia Minor remove the question what T�rkic language affected the Sumerian. The fact is that in the records of the Akkadian sources the region to the south of Bagdad was called Kienkir (Kangar), there lived Sumerians, and the region to the north of Bagdad carried the name Subartu, there lived Subars. Sumerians did not call themselves Sumerians, their endoethnonym was Kangarli or Kangar. In Herodotus this ethnonym is found as angareon (see sect. 46 of this book). Akkadians and other peoples called Kangars "Sumerians" or "Shumerians", and this ethnonym they borrowed from the Subars, i.e. both Kangars (Sumerians), and Subars they called by the ethnonym Subar [Firidun Agasyoglu, 2000, 157], which in various language and dialect environments was pronounced differently: Sumar/Sumer/Shumer/Samar/Suar/Sabir/Savir/Sibir, etc.
          end quote

          Apparently the name Sumer was alternatively pronounced as Samar. It is currently thought that the Sumerians derived from the Samarran culture (Iraqi city of Samarra) aka the Ubaidian culture. The word Sumeru (Shomeru) is the Akkadian designation for 'kien gir' meaning the native land, which was the Sumerian endoethnohym for themselves.I know that Samaria was known as Shomron (meaning 'watchers' in Hebrew which makes no sense) to the Hebrews, a word that is obviously derived from the Akkadian Shomeru/Sumeru. There seems to be a connection between the origins of the 'Cutheans' (aka Samaritans) who were transported to Samaria by the Assyrians and the Sumerians/Samarians who from Sumer. The original name the Sumerians used for themselves was �ĝ saĝ g�g-ga, which means "the black headed people." Arabic preserves the original meaning of Sumer/Shomer. Smr (samura) means to turn brown in Arabic. So, if these Samaritan transplants were viewed as coming from the land of the black headed people (Shmr/smr or the dark ones), this would indicate that the name Samaria is derived from the Akkadian word for the black headed people which would be Shomer in Akkadian/Assyrian and Smr in Arabic. The Sumerians had long been an extinct empire by 722 BCE, when the Assyrians conquered Israel. However, I thought it was very interesting that their Akkadian designation, (Shomeru/Sumeru/Samaru) seems to have survived in the Hebrew as Samaria (Shomron) and in Iraq as Samarra.

          Take Care
          Holly




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Holly
          He Will: Will wrote: I m fascinated by the association of Shomron meaning watchers . My first thought is that Shomron is in the north of Israel, and was
          Message 4 of 8 , May 1, 2012
            He Will:


            Will wrote:

            I'm fascinated by the association of "Shomron" meaning "watchers". My first
            thought is that Shomron is in the north of Israel, and was known for having been
            built around a tall hill (Hill of Shomron). It could simply mean that they were
            acknowledged as "guardians" of the northern lands of Israel.
            end quote

            Will, it appears that the word 'shomron' has night associations as does the word 'smr' in Arabic. Smr in Arabic means to turn brown but it also means to chat in the evening.So, the word smr is associated with dusk in the desert where the dusty sky appears to be turning brown. The Hebrew equivalent, shomron, as I read, means watcher or guardian. However, one article, which I can't locate now, suggested that shomron may be related to guarding at night just as smr can mean an evening chat as well as to be brown. If this is the case, then the Akkadian word
            'shomeru' means the dark or brown people which would be an Akkadian translation of the Sumerian phrase ug sag gi-ga or the 'black headed people', which is how the Sumerians referred to themselves.

            Will wrote:

            Finally, what are the implications of all this in association with "Yahweh of
            Samaria"? I wonder, is it a connection for Yahweh to Ancient Sumer? If so,
            perhaps Yahweh *is* Ea/Enki as has been suspected by some experts.
            end quote

            Ea is a water god and Yah/YHWH is a desert god associated with volcanoes and serpents. It appears that the two are not related.

            TAke Care
            Holly
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