Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

The Elohistic Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.

Expand Messages
  • LM Barre
    The term, Elohistic Psalter refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which Elohim rather than Yahweh is the favored designation of the deity.
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 5, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      The term, "Elohistic Psalter" refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" is the favored designation of the deity.  Looking more closely at this collection, we find that there are two types of Elohistic Psalms--"pure" in which Yahweh does not appear and "mixed" in which Yahweh does appear but still less frequently than Elohim.  There are 16 pure psalms and 25 mixed psalms:

      Pure: 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 82.

      Mixed: 42-43, 46, 47, 48. 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83.

      The existence of a group of  "pure," Elohistic Psalms is noteworthy insofar as it seems that we have here a collection of Psalms that describes Elohim (also 'el, 'alyon, shaddai) as seemingly distinct from Yahweh, whom we should bracket out when these pure psalms are read.  (This favoring of Elohim reminds us of the E document of the Pentateuch.)  As for the mixed type, it is a question as to whether these psalms have been edited to insert Yahweh and so mutally identify Elohim and Yahweh.  We have already seen this phenomenon at work when Psalm 14 (mixed) is compared to Psalm 53 (pure). When we turn to the first example of a mixed type in Psalm 42-43, we find Yahweh mentioned only once in v 8.  Here is the verse in the context of the entire Psalm:

      42:1 As a
      deer longs for streams of
      water,
      so I long for you, O God!
      42:2 I
      thirst for
      God,
      for the living God.
      I say, “When will I be able to go and appear in God’s
      presence?”
      42:3I cannot
      eat, I weep day and night; all day long they say to me, “Where is your God?”
      42:4 I will
      remember and weep!
      For I was once walking along with the great throng to the temple
      of God,
      shouting and giving thanks along with the crowd as we celebrated
      the holy festival.
      42:5 Why are
      you depressed, O my soul?
      Why are you upset?
      Wait for God!
      For I will again give thanks
      to my God for his saving intervention.
      42:6 I am
      depressed,
      so I will pray to you while I am trapped here in the region of
      the upper Jordan,
      from Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
      42:7 One deep
      stream calls out to another at the sound of your waterfalls;
      all your billows and waves overwhelm me.

      [42:8 By day Yahweh decrees his loyal love,
      and by night he gives me a song,
      a prayer to the living God.]

      42:9 I will
      pray to God, my
      high ridge:
      “Why do you ignore me?
      Why must I walk around mourning
      because my enemies oppress me?”
      42:10 My
      enemies’ taunts cut into me to the bone,
      as they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
      42:11 Why are
      you depressed, O my soul?
      Why are you upset?
      Wait for God!
      For I will again give thanks
      to my God for his saving intervention.

      43:1 Vindicate
      me, O God!
      Fight for me against an ungodly nation!
      Deliver me from deceitful and evil men!
      43:2 For you
      are the God who shelters me.
      Why do you reject me?
      Why must I walk around7 mourning
      because my enemies oppress me?
      43:3 Reveal your light and your
      faithfulness!
      They will lead me,
      they will escort me back to your holy hill,
      and to the place where you live.
      43:4 Then I
      will go to the
      altar of God,
      to the God who gives me ecstatic joy,
      so that I express my thanks to you, O God, my God,
      with a harp.
      43:5 Why are
      you depressed, O my soul?
      Why are you upset?
      Wait for God!
      For I will again give thanks
      to my God for his saving intervention.

      Reading v 8 in the entire context of the Psalm forms a sharp contrast to v 8 where Yahweh is only here mentioned.  This suggest that as in the oracles of Balaam, the Psalm has received a yahwistic gloss.
       
      LM Barre'

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bergendelperon
      LM, The thought may occur somewhere along the way that the Jews had more than just two or three names for God in scripture and that usually our translators are
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 5, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        LM,

        The thought may occur somewhere along the way that the Jews had more than just two or three names for God in scripture and that usually our translators are oblivious, that is to say virtually ignorant of most of these names. Simply the Jews do not read our translations and they have little or nothing to say about the name issue other than being puzzled by our obsession with merely two of these names.

        So you know the Inuit (Eskimo people) have over fifty different names and terms for snow, while in these balmy southern latitudes we have just a few terms, reflecting a lesser importance.

        For example I saw a book by Vincent Taylor, 'The Names of Jesus' in which the author enumerates fifty-five different names and terms for Jesus of Nazareth, mostly culled from scripture or patristic writers. I was amazed, not having realized there might be so many possibilities and do not think he necessarily exhausted the search.

        It has been said that most of the psalms are by one author, King David, for well over one hundred of them; if he uses now one name here, yet over there some other (we miss most of them anyway), it is more than likely the same author choosing, for reasons best known to him. And therefore it wouldn't be prudent to leap to conclusions about variations in authorship, simply based on names that seem to occur in one versus another. Seems we have been relatively hampered by Wellhausen's ignorance.

        Bergen


        ***************************
        LM Barre wrote:
        >
        > The term, "Elohistic Psalter" refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" is the favored designation of the deity.  Looking more closely at this collection, we find that there are two types of Elohistic Psalms--"pure" in which Yahweh does not appear and "mixed" in which Yahweh does appear but still less frequently than Elohim.  There are 16 pure psalms and 25 mixed psalms:
        >
        > Pure: 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 82.
        >
        > Mixed: 42-43, 46, 47, 48. 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83.
        >
        > The existence of a group of  "pure," Elohistic Psalms is noteworthy insofar as it seems that we have here a collection of Psalms that describes Elohim (also 'el, 'alyon, shaddai) as seemingly distinct from Yahweh, whom we should bracket out when these pure psalms are read.  (This favoring of Elohim reminds us of the E document of the Pentateuch.)  As for the mixed type, it is a question as to whether these psalms have been edited to insert Yahweh and so mutally identify Elohim and Yahweh.  We have already seen this phenomenon at work when Psalm 14 (mixed) is compared to Psalm 53 (pure). When we turn to the first example of a mixed type in Psalm 42-43, we find Yahweh mentioned only once in v 8.  Here is the verse in the context of the entire Psalm:
        >
        > 42:1 As a
        > deer longs for streams of
        > water,
        > so I long for you, O God!
        > 42:2 I
        > thirst for
        > God,
        > for the living God.
        > I say, “When will I be able to go and appear in God’s
        > presence?”
        > 42:3I cannot
        > eat, I weep day and night; all day long they say to me, “Where is your God?”
        > 42:4 I will
        > remember and weep!
        > For I was once walking along with the great throng to the temple
        > of God,
        > shouting and giving thanks along with the crowd as we celebrated
        > the holy festival.
        > 42:5 Why are
        > you depressed, O my soul?
        > Why are you upset?
        > Wait for God!
        > For I will again give thanks
        > to my God for his saving intervention.
        > 42:6 I am
        > depressed,
        > so I will pray to you while I am trapped here in the region of
        > the upper Jordan,
        > from Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
        > 42:7 One deep
        > stream calls out to another at the sound of your waterfalls;
        > all your billows and waves overwhelm me.
        >
        > [42:8 By day Yahweh decrees his loyal love,
        > and by night he gives me a song,
        > a prayer to the living God.]
        >
        > 42:9 I will
        > pray to God, my
        > high ridge:
        > “Why do you ignore me?
        > Why must I walk around mourning
        > because my enemies oppress me?”
        > 42:10 My
        > enemies’ taunts cut into me to the bone,
        > as they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
        > 42:11 Why are
        > you depressed, O my soul?
        > Why are you upset?
        > Wait for God!
        > For I will again give thanks
        > to my God for his saving intervention.
        >
        > 43:1 Vindicate
        > me, O God!
        > Fight for me against an ungodly nation!
        > Deliver me from deceitful and evil men!
        > 43:2 For you
        > are the God who shelters me.
        > Why do you reject me?
        > Why must I walk around7 mourning
        > because my enemies oppress me?
        > 43:3 Reveal your light and your
        > faithfulness!
        > They will lead me,
        > they will escort me back to your holy hill,
        > and to the place where you live.
        > 43:4 Then I
        > will go to the
        > altar of God,
        > to the God who gives me ecstatic joy,
        > so that I express my thanks to you, O God, my God,
        > with a harp.
        > 43:5 Why are
        > you depressed, O my soul?
        > Why are you upset?
        > Wait for God!
        > For I will again give thanks
        > to my God for his saving intervention.
        >
        > Reading v 8 in the entire context of the Psalm forms a sharp contrast to v 8 where Yahweh is only here mentioned.  This suggest that as in the oracles of Balaam, the Psalm has received a yahwistic gloss.
        >  
        > LM Barre'
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Attila Csanyi
        Certain passages e.g. Jeremiah 44 reveal that monotheism, the worship of Yahweh  was being forced on the people who offered some resistance. The same
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 5, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Certain passages e.g. Jeremiah 44 reveal that monotheism, the worship of Yahweh 
          was being forced on the people who offered some resistance.
          The same priesthood could also be responsible for editing YHWH (or ADONAI) into some of the text, but
          since the Hebrew material was on small scrolls, some of them were most likely left unredacted.
          Would be interesting to compare these to DSS scrolls.

          BTW, it seems that ADONAI could be also used to replace other names.


          ________________________________
          From: LM Barre <l_barre@...>
          To: Ancient Bible HIstory <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 1:16 AM
          Subject: ABH The Elohistic Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.


           
          The term, "Elohistic Psalter" refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" is the favored designation of the deity.  Looking more closely at this collection, we find that there are two types of Elohistic Psalms--"pure" in which Yahweh does not appear and "mixed" in which Yahweh does appear but still less frequently than Elohim.  There are 16 pure psalms and 25 mixed psalms:

          Pure: 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 82.

          Mixed: 42-43, 46, 47, 48. 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83.

          The existence of a group of  "pure," Elohistic Psalms is noteworthy insofar as it seems that we have here a collection of Psalms that describes Elohim (also 'el, 'alyon, shaddai) as seemingly distinct from Yahweh, whom we should bracket out when these pure psalms are read.  (This favoring of Elohim reminds us of the E document of the Pentateuch.)  As for the mixed type, it is a question as to whether these psalms have been edited to insert Yahweh and so mutally identify Elohim and Yahweh.  We have already seen this phenomenon at work when Psalm 14 (mixed) is compared to Psalm 53 (pure). When we turn to the first example of a mixed type in Psalm 42-43, we find Yahweh mentioned only once in v 8.  Here is the verse in the context of the entire Psalm:

          42:1 As a
          deer longs for streams of
          water,
          so I long for you, O God!
          42:2 I
          thirst for
          God,
          for the living God.
          I say, “When will I be able to go and appear in God’s
          presence?”
          42:3I cannot
          eat, I weep day and night; all day long they say to me, “Where is your God?”
          42:4 I will
          remember and weep!
          For I was once walking along with the great throng to the temple
          of God,
          shouting and giving thanks along with the crowd as we celebrated
          the holy festival.
          42:5 Why are
          you depressed, O my soul?
          Why are you upset?
          Wait for God!
          For I will again give thanks
          to my God for his saving intervention.
          42:6 I am
          depressed,
          so I will pray to you while I am trapped here in the region of
          the upper Jordan,
          from Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
          42:7 One deep
          stream calls out to another at the sound of your waterfalls;
          all your billows and waves overwhelm me.

          [42:8 By day Yahweh decrees his loyal love,
          and by night he gives me a song,
          a prayer to the living God.]

          42:9 I will
          pray to God, my
          high ridge:
          “Why do you ignore me?
          Why must I walk around mourning
          because my enemies oppress me?”
          42:10 My
          enemies’ taunts cut into me to the bone,
          as they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
          42:11 Why are
          you depressed, O my soul?
          Why are you upset?
          Wait for God!
          For I will again give thanks
          to my God for his saving intervention.

          43:1 Vindicate
          me, O God!
          Fight for me against an ungodly nation!
          Deliver me from deceitful and evil men!
          43:2 For you
          are the God who shelters me.
          Why do you reject me?
          Why must I walk around7 mourning
          because my enemies oppress me?
          43:3 Reveal your light and your
          faithfulness!
          They will lead me,
          they will escort me back to your holy hill,
          and to the place where you live.
          43:4 Then I
          will go to the
          altar of God,
          to the God who gives me ecstatic joy,
          so that I express my thanks to you, O God, my God,
          with a harp.
          43:5 Why are
          you depressed, O my soul?
          Why are you upset?
          Wait for God!
          For I will again give thanks
          to my God for his saving intervention.

          Reading v 8 in the entire context of the Psalm forms a sharp contrast to v 8 where Yahweh is only here mentioned.  This suggest that as in the oracles of Balaam, the Psalm has received a yahwistic gloss.
           
          LM Barre'

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Attila Csanyi
          From the historical evidence it looks like those are two or three or more deities with different names,  not so many names for the same one.
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 5, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            From the historical evidence it looks like those are two or three or more deities with different names, 
            not so many names for the same one.



            ________________________________
            From: bergendelperon <bergendelperon@...>
            To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 9:18 AM
            Subject: ABH Re: The Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.


             

            LM,

            The thought may occur somewhere along the way that the Jews had more than just two or three names for God in scripture and that usually our translators are oblivious, that is to say virtually ignorant of most of these names. Simply the Jews do not read our translations and they have little or nothing to say about the name issue other than being puzzled by our obsession with merely two of these names.

            So you know the Inuit (Eskimo people) have over fifty different names and terms for snow, while in these balmy southern latitudes we have just a few terms, reflecting a lesser importance.

            For example I saw a book by Vincent Taylor, 'The Names of Jesus' in which the author enumerates fifty-five different names and terms for Jesus of Nazareth, mostly culled from scripture or patristic writers. I was amazed, not having realized there might be so many possibilities and do not think he necessarily exhausted the search.

            It has been said that most of the psalms are by one author, King David, for well over one hundred of them; if he uses now one name here, yet over there some other (we miss most of them anyway), it is more than likely the same author choosing, for reasons best known to him. And therefore it wouldn't be prudent to leap to conclusions about variations in authorship, simply based on names that seem to occur in one versus another. Seems we have been relatively hampered by Wellhausen's ignorance.

            Bergen

            ***************************
            LM Barre wrote:
            >
            > The term, "Elohistic Psalter" refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" is the favored designation of the deity.  Looking more closely at this collection, we find that there are two types of Elohistic Psalms--"pure" in which Yahweh does not appear and "mixed" in which Yahweh does appear but still less frequently than Elohim.  There are 16 pure psalms and 25 mixed psalms:
            >
            > Pure: 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 82.
            >
            > Mixed: 42-43, 46, 47, 48. 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83.
            >
            > The existence of a group of  "pure," Elohistic Psalms is noteworthy insofar as it seems that we have here a collection of Psalms that describes Elohim (also 'el, 'alyon, shaddai) as seemingly distinct from Yahweh, whom we should bracket out when these pure psalms are read.  (This favoring of Elohim reminds us of the E document of the Pentateuch.)  As for the mixed type, it is a question as to whether these psalms have been edited to insert Yahweh and so mutally identify Elohim and Yahweh.  We have already seen this phenomenon at work when Psalm 14 (mixed) is compared to Psalm 53 (pure). When we turn to the first example of a mixed type in Psalm 42-43, we find Yahweh mentioned only once in v 8.  Here is the verse in the context of the entire Psalm:
            >
            > 42:1 As a
            > deer longs for streams of
            > water,
            > so I long for you, O God!
            > 42:2 I
            > thirst for
            > God,
            > for the living God.
            > I say, “When will I be able to go and appear in God’s
            > presence?”
            > 42:3I cannot
            > eat, I weep day and night; all day long they say to me, “Where is your God?”
            > 42:4 I will
            > remember and weep!
            > For I was once walking along with the great throng to the temple
            > of God,
            > shouting and giving thanks along with the crowd as we celebrated
            > the holy festival.
            > 42:5 Why are
            > you depressed, O my soul?
            > Why are you upset?
            > Wait for God!
            > For I will again give thanks
            > to my God for his saving intervention.
            > 42:6 I am
            > depressed,
            > so I will pray to you while I am trapped here in the region of
            > the upper Jordan,
            > from Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
            > 42:7 One deep
            > stream calls out to another at the sound of your waterfalls;
            > all your billows and waves overwhelm me.
            >
            > [42:8 By day Yahweh decrees his loyal love,
            > and by night he gives me a song,
            > a prayer to the living God.]
            >
            > 42:9 I will
            > pray to God, my
            > high ridge:
            > “Why do you ignore me?
            > Why must I walk around mourning
            > because my enemies oppress me?”
            > 42:10 My
            > enemies’ taunts cut into me to the bone,
            > as they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
            > 42:11 Why are
            > you depressed, O my soul?
            > Why are you upset?
            > Wait for God!
            > For I will again give thanks
            > to my God for his saving intervention.
            >
            > 43:1 Vindicate
            > me, O God!
            > Fight for me against an ungodly nation!
            > Deliver me from deceitful and evil men!
            > 43:2 For you
            > are the God who shelters me.
            > Why do you reject me?
            > Why must I walk around7 mourning
            > because my enemies oppress me?
            > 43:3 Reveal your light and your
            > faithfulness!
            > They will lead me,
            > they will escort me back to your holy hill,
            > and to the place where you live.
            > 43:4 Then I
            > will go to the
            > altar of God,
            > to the God who gives me ecstatic joy,
            > so that I express my thanks to you, O God, my God,
            > with a harp.
            > 43:5 Why are
            > you depressed, O my soul?
            > Why are you upset?
            > Wait for God!
            > For I will again give thanks
            > to my God for his saving intervention.
            >
            > Reading v 8 in the entire context of the Psalm forms a sharp contrast to v 8 where Yahweh is only here mentioned.  This suggest that as in the oracles of Balaam, the Psalm has received a yahwistic gloss.
            >  
            > LM Barre'
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • bergendelperon
            Attila, Aha! So you say they were forced to believe? This is a revelation indeed; perhaps it was a systematic application of state torture back then... and the
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 5, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Attila,

              Aha! So you say they were forced to believe? This is a revelation indeed; perhaps it was a systematic application of state torture back then... and the Kumfee Zhair!!!

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY

              It must have been like that. Yes. It's much clearer now, thanks.

              Bergen


              *****************************
              Attila Csanyi wrote:
              > Certain passages e.g. Jeremiah 44 reveal that monotheism, the worship of Yahweh 
              > was being forced on the people who offered some resistance.
              > The same priesthood could also be responsible for editing YHWH (or ADONAI) into some of the text, but
              > since the Hebrew material was on small scrolls, some of them were most likely left unredacted.
              > Would be interesting to compare these to DSS scrolls.
              >
              > BTW, it seems that ADONAI could be also used to replace other names.
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: LM Barre <l_barre@...>
              > To: Ancient Bible HIstory <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 1:16 AM
              > Subject: ABH The Elohistic Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.
              >
              >
              >  
              > The term, "Elohistic Psalter" refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" is the favored designation of the deity.  Looking more closely at this collection, we find that there are two types of Elohistic Psalms--"pure" in which Yahweh does not appear and "mixed" in which Yahweh does appear but still less frequently than Elohim.  There are 16 pure psalms and 25 mixed psalms:
              >
              > Pure: 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 82.
              >
              > Mixed: 42-43, 46, 47, 48. 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83.
              >
              > The existence of a group of  "pure," Elohistic Psalms is noteworthy insofar as it seems that we have here a collection of Psalms that describes Elohim (also 'el, 'alyon, shaddai) as seemingly distinct from Yahweh, whom we should bracket out when these pure psalms are read.  (This favoring of Elohim reminds us of the E document of the Pentateuch.)  As for the mixed type, it is a question as to whether these psalms have been edited to insert Yahweh and so mutally identify Elohim and Yahweh.  We have already seen this phenomenon at work when Psalm 14 (mixed) is compared to Psalm 53 (pure). When we turn to the first example of a mixed type in Psalm 42-43, we find Yahweh mentioned only once in v 8.  Here is the verse in the context of the entire Psalm:
              >
              > 42:1 As a
              > deer longs for streams of
              > water,
              > so I long for you, O God!
              > 42:2 I
              > thirst for
              > God,
              > for the living God.
              > I say, “When will I be able to go and appear in God’s
              > presence?”
              > 42:3I cannot
              > eat, I weep day and night; all day long they say to me, “Where is your God?”
              > 42:4 I will
              > remember and weep!
              > For I was once walking along with the great throng to the temple
              > of God,
              > shouting and giving thanks along with the crowd as we celebrated
              > the holy festival.
              > 42:5 Why are
              > you depressed, O my soul?
              > Why are you upset?
              > Wait for God!
              > For I will again give thanks
              > to my God for his saving intervention.
              > 42:6 I am
              > depressed,
              > so I will pray to you while I am trapped here in the region of
              > the upper Jordan,
              > from Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
              > 42:7 One deep
              > stream calls out to another at the sound of your waterfalls;
              > all your billows and waves overwhelm me.
              >
              > [42:8 By day Yahweh decrees his loyal love,
              > and by night he gives me a song,
              > a prayer to the living God.]
              >
              > 42:9 I will
              > pray to God, my
              > high ridge:
              > “Why do you ignore me?
              > Why must I walk around mourning
              > because my enemies oppress me?”
              > 42:10 My
              > enemies’ taunts cut into me to the bone,
              > as they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
              > 42:11 Why are
              > you depressed, O my soul?
              > Why are you upset?
              > Wait for God!
              > For I will again give thanks
              > to my God for his saving intervention.
              >
              > 43:1 Vindicate
              > me, O God!
              > Fight for me against an ungodly nation!
              > Deliver me from deceitful and evil men!
              > 43:2 For you
              > are the God who shelters me.
              > Why do you reject me?
              > Why must I walk around7 mourning
              > because my enemies oppress me?
              > 43:3 Reveal your light and your
              > faithfulness!
              > They will lead me,
              > they will escort me back to your holy hill,
              > and to the place where you live.
              > 43:4 Then I
              > will go to the
              > altar of God,
              > to the God who gives me ecstatic joy,
              > so that I express my thanks to you, O God, my God,
              > with a harp.
              > 43:5 Why are
              > you depressed, O my soul?
              > Why are you upset?
              > Wait for God!
              > For I will again give thanks
              > to my God for his saving intervention.
              >
              > Reading v 8 in the entire context of the Psalm forms a sharp contrast to v 8 where Yahweh is only here mentioned.  This suggest that as in the oracles of Balaam, the Psalm has received a yahwistic gloss.
              >  
              > LM Barre'
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Attila Csanyi
              That is what Jeremiah admits.  They even  rounded up the non-Yahwist priests and sacrificed them on their altars! SEE: O altar, altar! This is what the Lord
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 5, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                That is what Jeremiah admits. 
                They even  rounded up the non-Yahwist priests and sacrificed them on their altars!
                SEE: "O altar, altar! This is what the Lord says: "A son named Josiah will be born to the house of David. 
                On you he will sacrifice the priests of the high places who now make offerings here, and human bones will be burned on you." (1 Kings 13:1-3)


                ________________________________
                From: bergendelperon <bergendelperon@...>
                To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 4:08 PM
                Subject: ABH Re: The Elohistic Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.


                 
                Attila,

                Aha! So you say they were forced to believe? This is a revelation indeed; perhaps it was a systematic application of state torture back then... and the Kumfee Zhair!!!

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSe38dzJYkY

                It must have been like that. Yes. It's much clearer now, thanks.

                Bergen

                *****************************
                Attila Csanyi wrote:
                > Certain passages e.g. Jeremiah 44 reveal that monotheism, the worship of Yahweh 
                > was being forced on the people who offered some resistance.
                > The same priesthood could also be responsible for editing YHWH (or ADONAI) into some of the text, but
                > since the Hebrew material was on small scrolls, some of them were most likely left unredacted.
                > Would be interesting to compare these to DSS scrolls.
                >
                > BTW, it seems that ADONAI could be also used to replace other names.
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: LM Barre <l_barre@...>
                > To: Ancient Bible HIstory <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 1:16 AM
                > Subject: ABH The Elohistic Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.
                >
                >
                >  
                > The term, "Elohistic Psalter" refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" is the favored designation of the deity.  Looking more closely at this collection, we find that there are two types of Elohistic Psalms--"pure" in which Yahweh does not appear and "mixed" in which Yahweh does appear but still less frequently than Elohim.  There are 16 pure psalms and 25 mixed psalms:
                >
                > Pure: 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 82.
                >
                > Mixed: 42-43, 46, 47, 48. 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83.
                >
                > The existence of a group of  "pure," Elohistic Psalms is noteworthy insofar as it seems that we have here a collection of Psalms that describes Elohim (also 'el, 'alyon, shaddai) as seemingly distinct from Yahweh, whom we should bracket out when these pure psalms are read.  (This favoring of Elohim reminds us of the E document of the Pentateuch.)  As for the mixed type, it is a question as to whether these psalms have been edited to insert Yahweh and so mutally identify Elohim and Yahweh.  We have already seen this phenomenon at work when Psalm 14 (mixed) is compared to Psalm 53 (pure). When we turn to the first example of a mixed type in Psalm 42-43, we find Yahweh mentioned only once in v 8.  Here is the verse in the context of the entire Psalm:
                >
                > 42:1 As a
                > deer longs for streams of
                > water,
                > so I long for you, O God!
                > 42:2 I
                > thirst for
                > God,
                > for the living God.
                > I say, “When will I be able to go and appear in God’s
                > presence?”
                > 42:3I cannot
                > eat, I weep day and night; all day long they say to me, “Where is your God?”
                > 42:4 I will
                > remember and weep!
                > For I was once walking along with the great throng to the temple
                > of God,
                > shouting and giving thanks along with the crowd as we celebrated
                > the holy festival.
                > 42:5 Why are
                > you depressed, O my soul?
                > Why are you upset?
                > Wait for God!
                > For I will again give thanks
                > to my God for his saving intervention.
                > 42:6 I am
                > depressed,
                > so I will pray to you while I am trapped here in the region of
                > the upper Jordan,
                > from Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
                > 42:7 One deep
                > stream calls out to another at the sound of your waterfalls;
                > all your billows and waves overwhelm me.
                >
                > [42:8 By day Yahweh decrees his loyal love,
                > and by night he gives me a song,
                > a prayer to the living God.]
                >
                > 42:9 I will
                > pray to God, my
                > high ridge:
                > “Why do you ignore me?
                > Why must I walk around mourning
                > because my enemies oppress me?”
                > 42:10 My
                > enemies’ taunts cut into me to the bone,
                > as they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
                > 42:11 Why are
                > you depressed, O my soul?
                > Why are you upset?
                > Wait for God!
                > For I will again give thanks
                > to my God for his saving intervention.
                >
                > 43:1 Vindicate
                > me, O God!
                > Fight for me against an ungodly nation!
                > Deliver me from deceitful and evil men!
                > 43:2 For you
                > are the God who shelters me.
                > Why do you reject me?
                > Why must I walk around7 mourning
                > because my enemies oppress me?
                > 43:3 Reveal your light and your
                > faithfulness!
                > They will lead me,
                > they will escort me back to your holy hill,
                > and to the place where you live.
                > 43:4 Then I
                > will go to the
                > altar of God,
                > to the God who gives me ecstatic joy,
                > so that I express my thanks to you, O God, my God,
                > with a harp.
                > 43:5 Why are
                > you depressed, O my soul?
                > Why are you upset?
                > Wait for God!
                > For I will again give thanks
                > to my God for his saving intervention.
                >
                > Reading v 8 in the entire context of the Psalm forms a sharp contrast to v 8 where Yahweh is only here mentioned.  This suggest that as in the oracles of Balaam, the Psalm has received a yahwistic gloss.
                >  
                > LM Barre'
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • LM Barre
                Bergen, Exod 6:2 shows that there were some in Israel who address the different names of el shaddai verses yahweh.   The issue is not an invented,
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 5, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bergen,

                  Exod 6:2 shows that there were some in Israel who address the different names of 'el shaddai verses yahweh.   The issue is not an invented, uninformed, modern topic of concern:

                  “I am Yahweh  6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name ‘Yahweh ’ I was
                  not known to them.


                  Also, the differing uses of elohim and yahweh in Psalms 53 and 14 reflects a concern over divine names.

                  LM Barre', PhD


                   



                  >________________________________
                  > From: bergendelperon <bergendelperon@...>
                  >To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 8:18 AM
                  >Subject: ABH Re: The Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.
                  >
                  >

                  >
                  >LM,
                  >
                  >The thought may occur somewhere along the way that the Jews had more than just two or three names for God in scripture and that usually our translators are oblivious, that is to say virtually ignorant of most of these names. Simply the Jews do not read our translations and they have little or nothing to say about the name issue other than being puzzled by our obsession with merely two of these names.
                  >
                  >So you know the Inuit (Eskimo people) have over fifty different names and terms for snow, while in these balmy southern latitudes we have just a few terms, reflecting a lesser importance.
                  >
                  >For example I saw a book by Vincent Taylor, 'The Names of Jesus' in which the author enumerates fifty-five different names and terms for Jesus of Nazareth, mostly culled from scripture or patristic writers. I was amazed, not having realized there might be so many possibilities and do not think he necessarily exhausted the search.
                  >
                  >It has been said that most of the psalms are by one author, King David, for well over one hundred of them; if he uses now one name here, yet over there some other (we miss most of them anyway), it is more than likely the same author choosing, for reasons best known to him. And therefore it wouldn't be prudent to leap to conclusions about variations in authorship, simply based on names that seem to occur in one versus another. Seems we have been relatively hampered by Wellhausen's ignorance.
                  >
                  >Bergen
                  >
                  >***************************
                  >LM Barre wrote:
                  >>
                  >> The term, "Elohistic Psalter" refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" is the favored designation of the deity.  Looking more closely at this collection, we find that there are two types of Elohistic Psalms--"pure" in which Yahweh does not appear and "mixed" in which Yahweh does appear but still less frequently than Elohim.  There are 16 pure psalms and 25 mixed psalms:
                  >>
                  >> Pure: 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 82.
                  >>
                  >> Mixed: 42-43, 46, 47, 48. 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83.
                  >>
                  >> The existence of a group of  "pure," Elohistic Psalms is noteworthy insofar as it seems that we have here a collection of Psalms that describes Elohim (also 'el, 'alyon, shaddai) as seemingly distinct from Yahweh, whom we should bracket out when these pure psalms are read.  (This favoring of Elohim reminds us of the E document of the Pentateuch.)  As for the mixed type, it is a question as to whether these psalms have been edited to insert Yahweh and so mutally identify Elohim and Yahweh.  We have already seen this phenomenon at work when Psalm 14 (mixed) is compared to Psalm 53 (pure). When we turn to the first example of a mixed type in Psalm 42-43, we find Yahweh mentioned only once in v 8.  Here is the verse in the context of the entire Psalm:
                  >>
                  >> 42:1 As a
                  >> deer longs for streams of
                  >> water,
                  >> so I long for you, O God!
                  >> 42:2 I
                  >> thirst for
                  >> God,
                  >> for the living God.
                  >> I say, “When will I be able to go and appear in God’s
                  >> presence?”
                  >> 42:3I cannot
                  >> eat, I weep day and night; all day long they say to me, “Where is your God?”
                  >> 42:4 I will
                  >> remember and weep!
                  >> For I was once walking along with the great throng to the temple
                  >> of God,
                  >> shouting and giving thanks along with the crowd as we celebrated
                  >> the holy festival.
                  >> 42:5 Why are
                  >> you depressed, O my soul?
                  >> Why are you upset?
                  >> Wait for God!
                  >> For I will again give thanks
                  >> to my God for his saving intervention.
                  >> 42:6 I am
                  >> depressed,
                  >> so I will pray to you while I am trapped here in the region of
                  >> the upper Jordan,
                  >> from Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
                  >> 42:7 One deep
                  >> stream calls out to another at the sound of your waterfalls;
                  >> all your billows and waves overwhelm me.
                  >>
                  >> [42:8 By day Yahweh decrees his loyal love,
                  >> and by night he gives me a song,
                  >> a prayer to the living God.]
                  >>
                  >> 42:9 I will
                  >> pray to God, my
                  >> high ridge:
                  >> “Why do you ignore me?
                  >> Why must I walk around mourning
                  >> because my enemies oppress me?”
                  >> 42:10 My
                  >> enemies’ taunts cut into me to the bone,
                  >> as they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
                  >> 42:11 Why are
                  >> you depressed, O my soul?
                  >> Why are you upset?
                  >> Wait for God!
                  >> For I will again give thanks
                  >> to my God for his saving intervention.
                  >>
                  >> 43:1 Vindicate
                  >> me, O God!
                  >> Fight for me against an ungodly nation!
                  >> Deliver me from deceitful and evil men!
                  >> 43:2 For you
                  >> are the God who shelters me.
                  >> Why do you reject me?
                  >> Why must I walk around7 mourning
                  >> because my enemies oppress me?
                  >> 43:3 Reveal your light and your
                  >> faithfulness!
                  >> They will lead me,
                  >> they will escort me back to your holy hill,
                  >> and to the place where you live.
                  >> 43:4 Then I
                  >> will go to the
                  >> altar of God,
                  >> to the God who gives me ecstatic joy,
                  >> so that I express my thanks to you, O God, my God,
                  >> with a harp.
                  >> 43:5 Why are
                  >> you depressed, O my soul?
                  >> Why are you upset?
                  >> Wait for God!
                  >> For I will again give thanks
                  >> to my God for his saving intervention.
                  >>
                  >> Reading v 8 in the entire context of the Psalm forms a sharp contrast to v 8 where Yahweh is only here mentioned.  This suggest that as in the oracles of Balaam, the Psalm has received a yahwistic gloss.
                  >>  
                  >> LM Barre'
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Attila Csanyi
                  Genesis contains episodes in which Yahweh is already introducing himself by that name, of which the author of Exodus 6 is apparently unaware. E.g. Behold,
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 6, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Genesis contains episodes in which Yahweh is already introducing himself by that name,
                    of which the author of Exodus 6 is apparently unaware.
                    E.g. Behold, Yahweh stood above it, and said, 
                    "I am Yahweh, the God of Abraham your father, and the God of Isaac. (Gen. 28:13 WEB)


                    ________________________________
                    From: LM Barre <l_barre@...>
                    To: "AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com" <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:40 AM
                    Subject: Re: ABH Re: The Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.


                     


                    Bergen,

                    Exod 6:2 shows that there were some in Israel who address the different names of 'el shaddai verses yahweh.   The issue is not an invented, uninformed, modern topic of concern:

                    “I am Yahweh  6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as El Shaddai, but by my name ‘Yahweh ’ I was
                    not known to them.

                    Also, the differing uses of elohim and yahweh in Psalms 53 and 14 reflects a concern over divine names.

                    LM Barre', PhD

                     

                    >________________________________
                    > From: bergendelperon <bergendelperon@...>
                    >To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
                    >Sent: Monday, March 5, 2012 8:18 AM
                    >Subject: ABH Re: The Psalter: Pure and Mixed Types.
                    >
                    >

                    >
                    >LM,
                    >
                    >The thought may occur somewhere along the way that the Jews had more than just two or three names for God in scripture and that usually our translators are oblivious, that is to say virtually ignorant of most of these names. Simply the Jews do not read our translations and they have little or nothing to say about the name issue other than being puzzled by our obsession with merely two of these names.
                    >
                    >So you know the Inuit (Eskimo people) have over fifty different names and terms for snow, while in these balmy southern latitudes we have just a few terms, reflecting a lesser importance.
                    >
                    >For example I saw a book by Vincent Taylor, 'The Names of Jesus' in which the author enumerates fifty-five different names and terms for Jesus of Nazareth, mostly culled from scripture or patristic writers. I was amazed, not having realized there might be so many possibilities and do not think he necessarily exhausted the search.
                    >
                    >It has been said that most of the psalms are by one author, King David, for well over one hundred of them; if he uses now one name here, yet over there some other (we miss most of them anyway), it is more than likely the same author choosing, for reasons best known to him. And therefore it wouldn't be prudent to leap to conclusions about variations in authorship, simply based on names that seem to occur in one versus another. Seems we have been relatively hampered by Wellhausen's ignorance.
                    >
                    >Bergen
                    >
                    >***************************
                    >LM Barre wrote:
                    >>
                    >> The term, "Elohistic Psalter" refers to a collection of Psalms (Ps 42-83) in which "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" is the favored designation of the deity.  Looking more closely at this collection, we find that there are two types of Elohistic Psalms--"pure" in which Yahweh does not appear and "mixed" in which Yahweh does appear but still less frequently than Elohim.  There are 16 pure psalms and 25 mixed psalms:
                    >>
                    >> Pure: 44, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 66, 67, 82.
                    >>
                    >> Mixed: 42-43, 46, 47, 48. 54, 55, 56, 58, 59, 64, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 83.
                    >>
                    >> The existence of a group of  "pure," Elohistic Psalms is noteworthy insofar as it seems that we have here a collection of Psalms that describes Elohim (also 'el, 'alyon, shaddai) as seemingly distinct from Yahweh, whom we should bracket out when these pure psalms are read.  (This favoring of Elohim reminds us of the E document of the Pentateuch.)  As for the mixed type, it is a question as to whether these psalms have been edited to insert Yahweh and so mutally identify Elohim and Yahweh.  We have already seen this phenomenon at work when Psalm 14 (mixed) is compared to Psalm 53 (pure). When we turn to the first example of a mixed type in Psalm 42-43, we find Yahweh mentioned only once in v 8.  Here is the verse in the context of the entire Psalm:
                    >>
                    >> 42:1 As a
                    >> deer longs for streams of
                    >> water,
                    >> so I long for you, O God!
                    >> 42:2 I
                    >> thirst for
                    >> God,
                    >> for the living God.
                    >> I say, “When will I be able to go and appear in God’s
                    >> presence?”
                    >> 42:3I cannot
                    >> eat, I weep day and night; all day long they say to me, “Where is your God?”
                    >> 42:4 I will
                    >> remember and weep!
                    >> For I was once walking along with the great throng to the temple
                    >> of God,
                    >> shouting and giving thanks along with the crowd as we celebrated
                    >> the holy festival.
                    >> 42:5 Why are
                    >> you depressed, O my soul?
                    >> Why are you upset?
                    >> Wait for God!
                    >> For I will again give thanks
                    >> to my God for his saving intervention.
                    >> 42:6 I am
                    >> depressed,
                    >> so I will pray to you while I am trapped here in the region of
                    >> the upper Jordan,
                    >> from Hermon, from Mount Mizar.
                    >> 42:7 One deep
                    >> stream calls out to another at the sound of your waterfalls;
                    >> all your billows and waves overwhelm me.
                    >>
                    >> [42:8 By day Yahweh decrees his loyal love,
                    >> and by night he gives me a song,
                    >> a prayer to the living God.]
                    >>
                    >> 42:9 I will
                    >> pray to God, my
                    >> high ridge:
                    >> “Why do you ignore me?
                    >> Why must I walk around mourning
                    >> because my enemies oppress me?”
                    >> 42:10 My
                    >> enemies’ taunts cut into me to the bone,
                    >> as they say to me all day long, “Where is your God?”
                    >> 42:11 Why are
                    >> you depressed, O my soul?
                    >> Why are you upset?
                    >> Wait for God!
                    >> For I will again give thanks
                    >> to my God for his saving intervention.
                    >>
                    >> 43:1 Vindicate
                    >> me, O God!
                    >> Fight for me against an ungodly nation!
                    >> Deliver me from deceitful and evil men!
                    >> 43:2 For you
                    >> are the God who shelters me.
                    >> Why do you reject me?
                    >> Why must I walk around7 mourning
                    >> because my enemies oppress me?
                    >> 43:3 Reveal your light and your
                    >> faithfulness!
                    >> They will lead me,
                    >> they will escort me back to your holy hill,
                    >> and to the place where you live.
                    >> 43:4 Then I
                    >> will go to the
                    >> altar of God,
                    >> to the God who gives me ecstatic joy,
                    >> so that I express my thanks to you, O God, my God,
                    >> with a harp.
                    >> 43:5 Why are
                    >> you depressed, O my soul?
                    >> Why are you upset?
                    >> Wait for God!
                    >> For I will again give thanks
                    >> to my God for his saving intervention.
                    >>
                    >> Reading v 8 in the entire context of the Psalm forms a sharp contrast to v 8 where Yahweh is only here mentioned.  This suggest that as in the oracles of Balaam, the Psalm has received a yahwistic gloss.
                    >>  
                    >> LM Barre'
                    >>
                    >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.