Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Aris: Yahweh's Alias?

Expand Messages
  • aris hobeth
    The Egyptian story of Sinuhe tells of his going to the land of Ya which I presume to be Midian, where the fugitive was welcomed by the Midian priest-tribal
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      The Egyptian story of "Sinuhe" tells of his going to the "land of Ya" which I presume to be Midian, where the fugitive was welcomed by the Midian priest-tribal leader.
       
      The Egyptian word "ba" means soul (Baal or Ba-El)? El, the word, seems to have descended into common words today: eloquent, elegant, elaborate meaning beauty? Perhaps Baal means soul of beauty?
       
      (Also, Ba reversed, Ab, means father. Sometimes the pun stuff reversed the spellings to get dual meanings. Like Ab Ra Ham, Ab Ram,)
       
      And I suspect Adam means "red" and redness seems to have a repeated link into the Biblical characters (skin and hair)? And of course blood. The Red Sea may have been named after the blood shed there by the destruction of the Egyptian army in the Exodus-evacuation disaster.  
       
      Little bits certainly show the elegant elaborate (multiple meanings) creativness of the Biblical writer(s). Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

      --- On Fri, 9/30/11, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:


      From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
      Subject: Re: ABH Re: Yahweh's Alias?
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, September 30, 2011, 11:12 PM


       





      From: Holly
      Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 5:25 PM
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: ABH Re: Yahweh's Alias?

      Since the Semites, which includes the El worshipping Eblaites and Canaanites, all originated in the Arabian Peninsula and El was the main god of the Semites, it appears that El originated in the Arabian Peninsula and was carried north by the Semitic expansion into Mesopotamia and the Levant. He seems to be a god indigenous to these people and this area. The Semites often addressed their god by his attributes as hy or yah, rhmn, elyon, shaddai. I propose that the name YHWH became ascendant over that of El because of the Canannite idolatry associated with El. Yah was strictly aniconic and had no idolatrous associations with his name. That's my opinion, anyway.

      Take Care
      Holly

      Hi Holly:

      You enter a much more interesting area in the transition from EL to YHWH which were, at one time, two separate deities and two separate cultures. I think the worship of YHWH goes further since it begins to become a theophoric to royal names in the mid 9th century BCE. But let's chitty chat about this:

      HYH is Hebrew but the root being discussed HWH is NOT...it is Aramaic. A Hiph'il form of HYH is, as far as I know, non-attested. There is an Hafel of HWH in Daniel 5:12 yod-heh-het-waw-heh. It is possible that HWH was "proto-Hebrew" later assimilated as HYH..

      El and Yhwh may have been merged as an hypocoristicon. The Qal of hwh taken from a TITLE phrase as a hypocoristicon of EL, ala Albright and Cross? A title like "El causes something to come into being". The use of HWH, therefore appears to be WAY down on the trunk of the NWSem tree where it became a loan word from Aramaic to early Hebrew. The name, as actually pronounced, IMO, was YE (QAL FORM) HAWAH (root).
      Yehawah.

      Jack

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • LM Barre
      ... From: LMB Sender: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:24:34 To:
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        > I was under the impression that "El" was a title, not a literal name. Like El Shaddai would mean "God/Deity Shaddai", and so on.
        >


        -----Original Message-----
        From: "LMB" <l_barre@...>
        Sender: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2011 09:24:34
        To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
        Reply-To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: ABH Yahweh's Alias?

        syn·cre·tism
           
        noun
        1.
        the attempted reconciliation or union of different or opposing principles, practices, or parties, as in philosophy or religion.

        It is fairly well-known that the gods Yahweh and El were originally separate, distinct gods.  From this perspective, the Priestly Writer is promoting a syncretism in which he states that the two gods were actually the same.  He did this by making El Shaddai to be Yahweh's alias to the patriarchs.

        3 To Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I appeared as El Shaddai, but I did not make my name Yahweh known to them. (Exod 6:3)






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

        CONTACT ABH MODERATOR:
        AncientBibleHistory-owner@yahoogroups.com

        ABH GROUP PAGE:
        http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory
        Yahoo! Groups Links





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • jimstinehart@aol.com
        I have not had much luck finding the name “Midian”/MDYN in Arabia in non-biblical sources. Where did the Bible come up with the name MDYN? There are so
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 2, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          I have not had much luck finding the name “Midian”/MDYN in Arabia in non-biblical sources. Where did the Bible come up with the name MDYN? There are so many references in the Bible to MDYN that it seems unlikely that multiple Biblical authors used a made-up name.

          1. Though rarely questioning the Biblical equation “Midian” = Arabia [or, (i) northwest Arabia, or (ii) Arabia + the Negev + the Transjordan, etc.], scholars nevertheless do not seem to have come up with much support for that Biblical equation. For example, I found this: “[L]ittle is known of the Midianites outside of the biblical references.” Geoffrey W. Bromiley, “The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia” (2007), at p. 349. Another scholarly source says of “Midian”: “etymology uncertain”.

          2. In the Bible, there are different traditions as to who Moses’ father-in-law was. He is often said to be a Midianite [e.g., Exodus 3: 1]. At Judges 4: 11, however, Moses’ father-in-law is said to be a Kenite: “Now Heber [XBR] the Kenite [H-QYN-Y], [which was] of the children of Hobab [XB-B] the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which [is] by Kedesh [in Galilee].” In Hurrian, (i) XBR means “heaven”, (ii) QYN-Y means “Firm Is Deity [Teshup]”, and (iii) XB-B means a follower of the Hurrian goddess Xeba/XB.

          Judges 5: 24 then says: “Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.”

          The traditional view is that “Jael”/Y'L is a west Semitic name that means “ibex”, but does that make sense? If Midian and Kenite and Heber all reference Hurrians [with M-D-Y-N being mi-da-a-ni or “Mitanni”, in my view], then Y‘L looks much more like the following two Hurrian common words with appropriate meanings for a woman’s name:

          (i) a-al-la: ‘lady, queen’

          (ii) e-e-li: ‘sister’

          Wouldn’t it make more sense for the name of the wife of XBR/Heber to mean “sister” or “lady” or “queen” in Hurrian, rather than meaning “ibex” in west Semitic? After all, Keturah’s son MDYN was sent out east, to the heart of Hurrianland/Naharim/Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN, per Genesis 25: 2, 6, not south to Arabia. Harran in Naharim [per Genesis 24: 10] was a logical place for Abraham to acquire Keturah as a Hurrian minor wife or concubine, prior to Abram and Lot leaving Harran to go to Canaan, whereas Abraham was never in Arabia to find an Arabian minor wife or concubine. Does it make sense for MDYN to be a west Semitic name meaning “brawling”? So many of these names, like MDYN and Y‘L and XB-B, make perfect sense in Hurrian, while making little sense in west Semitic.

          Whenever I look at Biblical names associated with Midian or the Kenites, it seems like I always run into what appear to be Hurrian names. If I’m wrong, and MDYN is not the Hebrew spelling of the Hurrian word for the Hurrian great power state of Mitanni in the Late Bronze Age, then where did the Bible come up with the name MDYN? An old 19th century source [which I realize is not necessarily reliable] says: “Arabs dispute whether the name ‘Medyen’ be foreign or Arabic; and whether ‘Medyen’ spoke Arabic.”

          There is a west Semitic common word MDWN [Psalms 80: 6], in the singular, meaning “strife”, but that’s not MDYN. There’s a plural form MDYNYM, for example at Proverbs 18: 18, or MDWNYM at Proverbs 26: 21, but I don’t think MDYN in the singular, with an interior yod, ever appears as a common word in the Bible.

          In the Patriarchal narratives, the mother almost always is the parent who decides what name a child will have. Keturah seems to be a foreigner, so wouldn’t we expect her children’s names to be foreign names? MDYN seems absent in Hebrew and may not be Arabic either, but it works perfectly in Hurrian.

          For over 2,000 years now, have people been looking in the wrong place for MDYN/“Midian”? Instead of having anything to do whatsoever with Arabia, isn’t that name coming from eastern Syria in the Late Bronze Age?

          Jim Stinehart


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Holly
          Jim: The following article might help you locate the Midianites: Midianite pottery, also known as Qurayya ware [1] is a ware type found in the Hejaz
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 2, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Jim:

            The following article might help you locate the Midianites:

            Midianite pottery, also known as "Qurayya ware" [1] is a ware type found in the Hejaz (northwestern Saudi Arabia), southern and central Jordan, southern Israel and the Sinai, generally dated to the 13th-12th centuries BCE, although later dates are also possible. It was discovered during the 1930s by Nelson Glueck in his surveys in southern Jordan and his excavations at Tell el-Kheleifeh in the southern Arabah valley. Glueck identified these wares as Iron Age II Edomite pottery.[2] During his surveys and excavations in the Arabah in the late 1950s and 1960s, Beno Rothenberg found similar decorated wares; and after the discovery at Timna valley of the several Egyptian findings belonging to the 19th and 20th Dynasties, Rothenberg dated this pottery to the 13th-12th centuries BC. Petrographic studies carried out on some of the Timna wares led to the conclusion that they originated in the Hejaz, most probably in the site of Qurayya.[3] Midianite bowls bear some resemblance in form with the Iron Age Negevite pottery bowls.

            end quote

            Take Care
            Holly


            --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, jimstinehart@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > I have not had much luck finding the name “Midian”/MDYN in Arabia in non-biblical sources. Where did the Bible come up with the name MDYN? There are so many references in the Bible to MDYN that it seems unlikely that multiple Biblical authors used a made-up name.
            >
            > 1. Though rarely questioning the Biblical equation “Midian” = Arabia [or, (i) northwest Arabia, or (ii) Arabia + the Negev + the Transjordan, etc.], scholars nevertheless do not seem to have come up with much support for that Biblical equation. For example, I found this: “[L]ittle is known of the Midianites outside of the biblical references.” Geoffrey W. Bromiley, “The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia” (2007), at p. 349. Another scholarly source says of “Midian”: “etymology uncertain”.
            >
            > 2. In the Bible, there are different traditions as to who Moses’ father-in-law was. He is often said to be a Midianite [e.g., Exodus 3: 1]. At Judges 4: 11, however, Moses’ father-in-law is said to be a Kenite: “Now Heber [XBR] the Kenite [H-QYN-Y], [which was] of the children of Hobab [XB-B] the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent unto the plain of Zaanaim, which [is] by Kedesh [in Galilee].” In Hurrian, (i) XBR means “heaven”, (ii) QYN-Y means “Firm Is Deity [Teshup]”, and (iii) XB-B means a follower of the Hurrian goddess Xeba/XB.
            >
            > Judges 5: 24 then says: “Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.”
            >
            > The traditional view is that “Jael”/Y'L is a west Semitic name that means “ibex”, but does that make sense? If Midian and Kenite and Heber all reference Hurrians [with M-D-Y-N being mi-da-a-ni or “Mitanni”, in my view], then Y‘L looks much more like the following two Hurrian common words with appropriate meanings for a woman’s name:
            >
            > (i) a-al-la: ‘lady, queen’
            >
            > (ii) e-e-li: ‘sister’
            >
            > Wouldn’t it make more sense for the name of the wife of XBR/Heber to mean “sister” or “lady” or “queen” in Hurrian, rather than meaning “ibex” in west Semitic? After all, Keturah’s son MDYN was sent out east, to the heart of Hurrianland/Naharim/Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN, per Genesis 25: 2, 6, not south to Arabia. Harran in Naharim [per Genesis 24: 10] was a logical place for Abraham to acquire Keturah as a Hurrian minor wife or concubine, prior to Abram and Lot leaving Harran to go to Canaan, whereas Abraham was never in Arabia to find an Arabian minor wife or concubine. Does it make sense for MDYN to be a west Semitic name meaning “brawling”? So many of these names, like MDYN and Y‘L and XB-B, make perfect sense in Hurrian, while making little sense in west Semitic.
            >
            > Whenever I look at Biblical names associated with Midian or the Kenites, it seems like I always run into what appear to be Hurrian names. If I’m wrong, and MDYN is not the Hebrew spelling of the Hurrian word for the Hurrian great power state of Mitanni in the Late Bronze Age, then where did the Bible come up with the name MDYN? An old 19th century source [which I realize is not necessarily reliable] says: “Arabs dispute whether the name ‘Medyen’ be foreign or Arabic; and whether ‘Medyen’ spoke Arabic.”
            >
            > There is a west Semitic common word MDWN [Psalms 80: 6], in the singular, meaning “strife”, but that’s not MDYN. There’s a plural form MDYNYM, for example at Proverbs 18: 18, or MDWNYM at Proverbs 26: 21, but I don’t think MDYN in the singular, with an interior yod, ever appears as a common word in the Bible.
            >
            > In the Patriarchal narratives, the mother almost always is the parent who decides what name a child will have. Keturah seems to be a foreigner, so wouldn’t we expect her children’s names to be foreign names? MDYN seems absent in Hebrew and may not be Arabic either, but it works perfectly in Hurrian.
            >
            > For over 2,000 years now, have people been looking in the wrong place for MDYN/“Midian”? Instead of having anything to do whatsoever with Arabia, isn’t that name coming from eastern Syria in the Late Bronze Age?
            >
            > Jim Stinehart
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • jimstinehart@aol.com
            Holly: Yes, I am aware of so-called “Midianite pottery”. My understanding is that such pottery has been found in northwest Arabia (and the Transjordan,
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 2, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Holly:

              Yes, I am aware of so-called “Midianite pottery”. My understanding is that such pottery has been found in northwest Arabia (and the Transjordan, southern Canaan, the Negev and the Sinai), being roughly the area that is often thought to be Midian in the Bible.

              But where did the Biblical name MDYN come from? I was hoping you might have an old Arabic angle as to the word MDYN, which perhaps I have overlooked.

              Whenever I look into these matters, it seems to me that MDYN is a non-Semitic name, and that it is a Hurrian name that references eastern Syria in the Late Bronze Age. But I don’t want to give up on the traditional view too quickly, if there is something out there in non-biblical sources to support MDYN being a west Semitic name for an area or people southwest of Canaan (which of course is precisely the opposite direction from Canaan as eastern Syria). I myself see the Patriarchal narratives as frequently talking about eastern Syria, and virtually never talking about Arabia.

              Is there anything out there in non-biblical ancient sources that connects the n-a-m-e MDYN to Arabia or thereabouts?

              Jim Stinehart


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Holly
              Jim: Midian (Mdyn- y pronounced as in the word yes) is most likely the name of an eponymous ancestor. The root in Aramaic is dyn (pronounced diyyan) and means
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 3, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Jim:

                Midian (Mdyn-'y' pronounced as in the word yes) is most likely the name of an eponymous ancestor. The root in Aramaic is dyn (pronounced diyyan) and means judge. Dyn (pronounced dayyin) means pious, godly in Arabic. However, the meaning of judge is retained in the Arabic word aldyan (ad-dayyan) which means The Judge, an attribute of God. In Hebrew, the equivalent word is dayyan (1Sam 24:15) and means judge. The 'm' is probably a form which means 'one who.' Eg., in Arabic, the word tdyn means piety. When preceeded by 'm', mtdyn, the word means pious or one who has piety.

                Hope this Helps
                Holly

                --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, jimstinehart@... wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > Holly:
                >
                > Yes, I am aware of so-called “Midianite pottery”. My understanding is that such pottery has been found in northwest Arabia (and the Transjordan, southern Canaan, the Negev and the Sinai), being roughly the area that is often thought to be Midian in the Bible.
                >
                > But where did the Biblical name MDYN come from? I was hoping you might have an old Arabic angle as to the word MDYN, which perhaps I have overlooked.
                >
                > Whenever I look into these matters, it seems to me that MDYN is a non-Semitic name, and that it is a Hurrian name that references eastern Syria in the Late Bronze Age. But I don’t want to give up on the traditional view too quickly, if there is something out there in non-biblical sources to support MDYN being a west Semitic name for an area or people southwest of Canaan (which of course is precisely the opposite direction from Canaan as eastern Syria). I myself see the Patriarchal narratives as frequently talking about eastern Syria, and virtually never talking about Arabia.
                >
                > Is there anything out there in non-biblical ancient sources that connects the n-a-m-e MDYN to Arabia or thereabouts?
                >
                > Jim Stinehart
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • jimstinehart@aol.com
                Holly: Thank you so much for your analysis of MDYN, as being M-DYN. Your west Semitic analysis of MDYN is far better than the traditional view, which sees
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 3, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Holly:

                  Thank you so much for your analysis of MDYN, as being M-DYN. Your west Semitic analysis of MDYN is far better than the traditional view, which sees MDYN as being an unattested singular version of a Hebrew word meaning “a brawling”. But I don’t think that MDYN could be a Patriarchal nickname meaning “judge”, because Keturah’s son MDYN is not a judge in the Patriarchal narratives, nor are the Ishmaelites/MDYN-YM who take Joseph as a slave into Egypt.

                  If MDYN is an historical name of a place or people (other than Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN in Late Bronze Age eastern Syria), then where is the name MDYN attested? Yes, a people’s name could be based on an eponymous ancestor who was a “judge”/DYN, and in theory M-DYN could be a west Semitic name meaning “one who is a judge”. But then where is that name attested historically?

                  I myself see Keturah as having been acquired by Abram in Harran in Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN, and I see her son MDYN as having been sent back to Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN in Late Bronze Age eastern Syria. The Ishmaelite slavetraders are Ishmaelites/MDYN-YM who have settled in Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN and are passing through Canaan on their way to Egypt. If we focus on the Patriarchal narratives, we keep seeing eastern Syria and non-Semitic Hurrian names, and we don’t see Arabia.

                  Jim Stinehart


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Holly
                  Jim: mdyan is most likely related to the ancient language spoken by the Qahtan Arabs whose ancestral home was the southern coast of the Arabian Peninsula. If
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 4, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jim:

                    mdyan is most likely related to the ancient language spoken by the Qahtan Arabs whose ancestral home was the southern coast of the Arabian Peninsula. If Mdyan was an eponymous ancestor, that would mean that he was a tribal sheikh/head. This position would automatically make him a judge. Most of the eponymous ancestors bore names that were titles or descriptions of what they had done in life. These titles were not their birth names. Mshh's name carries the following connotations: Shasu (mshy meaning one who walks), one who draws out (drawn out of water or better still, one who drew his people out of Egypt), Serpent (Msh is the Assyrian word for Serpent and Levite means twisted, like a coiled serpent), Priest (mshmsh in Assyrian means priest)etc.

                    As for Mdyan's location, it appears from the Qurayya ware, that the clay originated in the Hejaz in Northwest Saudi Arabia which was the homeland of Mdyan.

                    Take Care,
                    holly


                    --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, jimstinehart@... wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Holly:
                    >
                    > Thank you so much for your analysis of MDYN, as being M-DYN. Your west Semitic analysis of MDYN is far better than the traditional view, which sees MDYN as being an unattested singular version of a Hebrew word meaning “a brawling”. But I don’t think that MDYN could be a Patriarchal nickname meaning “judge”, because Keturah’s son MDYN is not a judge in the Patriarchal narratives, nor are the Ishmaelites/MDYN-YM who take Joseph as a slave into Egypt.
                    >
                    > If MDYN is an historical name of a place or people (other than Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN in Late Bronze Age eastern Syria), then where is the name MDYN attested? Yes, a people’s name could be based on an eponymous ancestor who was a “judge”/DYN, and in theory M-DYN could be a west Semitic name meaning “one who is a judge”. But then where is that name attested historically?
                    >
                    > I myself see Keturah as having been acquired by Abram in Harran in Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN, and I see her son MDYN as having been sent back to Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN in Late Bronze Age eastern Syria. The Ishmaelite slavetraders are Ishmaelites/MDYN-YM who have settled in Mitanni/mi-da-a-ni/MDYN and are passing through Canaan on their way to Egypt. If we focus on the Patriarchal narratives, we keep seeing eastern Syria and non-Semitic Hurrian names, and we don’t see Arabia.
                    >
                    > Jim Stinehart
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • jimstinehart@aol.com
                    Holly: 1. You wrote: “mdyan is most likely related to the ancient language spoken by the Qahtan Arabs whose ancestral home was the southern coast of the
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 4, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Holly:

                      1. You wrote: “mdyan is most likely related to the ancient language
                      spoken by the Qahtan Arabs whose ancestral home was the southern coast of the
                      Arabian Peninsula. If Mdyan was an eponymous ancestor, that would mean that he
                      was a tribal sheikh/head. This position would automatically make him a
                      judge. Most of the eponymous ancestors bore names that were titles or
                      descriptions of what they had done in life. These titles were not their birth names.”

                      I agree with all that, as far as it goes. But that has nothing to do with
                      Keturah’s son MDYN, who was sent out east to eastern Syria, and it has
                      nothing to do with the Ishmaelites/MDYN-YM, who apparently were coming from
                      eastern Syria, and who in any event certainly take Joseph to Egypt as a slave.

                      It’s fine for Qahtan Arabs to honor a tribal sheikh by calling him a “judge
                      ”, using a word that may be similar to M-DYN. But what is the connection
                      of that to the Patriarchal narratives? Where did the Hebrew author of the
                      Patriarchal narratives come up with the name MDYN, and why did he use it the
                      way he did? In the Patriarchal narratives, MDYN apparently has nothing to do
                      with Arabia or judges whatsoever, but there are specific ties of MDYN to
                      the locale of eastern Syria (the opposite direction from Canaan as Arabia).

                      2. You wrote: “As for Mdyan's location, it appears from the Qurayya ware,
                      that the clay originated in the Hejaz in Northwest Saudi Arabia which was
                      the homeland of Mdyan.”

                      Except that we don’t find the name MDYN attested in northwest Saudi Arabia
                      in ancient times, do we? Rather, in ancient times we see
                      Mitanni/Mi-da-a-ni/MDYN as Late Bronze Age eastern Syria. Yes, DYN means “judge” in several
                      ancient languages, and a mem/M prefix could be added: M-DYN. I’m fine with
                      all that. But I just don’t see the name MDYN attested in the ancient world
                      anywhere in the general vicinity of Arabia or anywhere else, except as the
                      Hurrian Late Bronze Age name for eastern Syria.

                      Jim Stinehart


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Holly
                      Jim: The Midianites are mentioned in the Soleb Temple inscription as Shasu of Yhw. They knew them by the God they worshipped and not by the name of their
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 4, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Jim:

                        The Midianites are mentioned in the Soleb Temple inscription as Shasu of Yhw. They knew them by the God they worshipped and not by the name of their eponymous ancestor. However, the Hebrews and Arabs would have known the specific tribal names which were indigenous to this area, because they occupied this land. However, non indigenous people would have named them differently than their tribal names. A similar situation happened when Europeans invaded the Americas. All of the tribes were lumped together as Indians and all the tribes in what is now Alaska and Greenland were lumped together as Eskimos. Even today, most Americans of European descent still address these indigenous people by those names even though their tribal names are now known.

                        Take Care
                        Holly

                        --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, jimstinehart@... wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Holly:
                        >
                        > 1. You wrote: “mdyan is most likely related to the ancient language
                        > spoken by the Qahtan Arabs whose ancestral home was the southern coast of the
                        > Arabian Peninsula. If Mdyan was an eponymous ancestor, that would mean that he
                        > was a tribal sheikh/head. This position would automatically make him a
                        > judge. Most of the eponymous ancestors bore names that were titles or
                        > descriptions of what they had done in life. These titles were not their birth names.”
                        >
                        > I agree with all that, as far as it goes. But that has nothing to do with
                        > Keturah’s son MDYN, who was sent out east to eastern Syria, and it has
                        > nothing to do with the Ishmaelites/MDYN-YM, who apparently were coming from
                        > eastern Syria, and who in any event certainly take Joseph to Egypt as a slave.
                        >
                        > It’s fine for Qahtan Arabs to honor a tribal sheikh by calling him a “judge
                        > ”, using a word that may be similar to M-DYN. But what is the connection
                        > of that to the Patriarchal narratives? Where did the Hebrew author of the
                        > Patriarchal narratives come up with the name MDYN, and why did he use it the
                        > way he did? In the Patriarchal narratives, MDYN apparently has nothing to do
                        > with Arabia or judges whatsoever, but there are specific ties of MDYN to
                        > the locale of eastern Syria (the opposite direction from Canaan as Arabia).
                        >
                        > 2. You wrote: “As for Mdyan's location, it appears from the Qurayya ware,
                        > that the clay originated in the Hejaz in Northwest Saudi Arabia which was
                        > the homeland of Mdyan.”
                        >
                        > Except that we don’t find the name MDYN attested in northwest Saudi Arabia
                        > in ancient times, do we? Rather, in ancient times we see
                        > Mitanni/Mi-da-a-ni/MDYN as Late Bronze Age eastern Syria. Yes, DYN means “judge” in several
                        > ancient languages, and a mem/M prefix could be added: M-DYN. I’m fine with
                        > all that. But I just don’t see the name MDYN attested in the ancient world
                        > anywhere in the general vicinity of Arabia or anywhere else, except as the
                        > Hurrian Late Bronze Age name for eastern Syria.
                        >
                        > Jim Stinehart
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.