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3 Aris: The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day

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  • aris hobeth
    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. Take God, for example. There is no proof that He does not exist (unless you actually have found some?).
    Message 1 of 385 , Mar 1, 2011
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      Absence of evidence is not evidence of absense. Take God, for example. There is no proof that He does not exist (unless you actually have found some?). Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

      --- On Fri, 2/25/11, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:


      From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
      Subject: Re: ABH 2 Aris: The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 7:30 PM


       



      Hi Aris:
      The best evidence that the earth never stopped its rotation (other than being physically impossible) is that the earth is still in one piece and I exist and am here sipping on a magnificent cup of kopi luwak while typing exchanges on this list about how the whole idea of this Biblical myth being factual is silly. As far as Joshua is concerned, if he is not entirely fictional, like the Exodus as described in the Bible, his contant good fortune in celestial and divine assistance in his conquests arose from the repeated campfire telling by nomadic shepherds over many centuries.

      Jack

      From: aris hobeth
      Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 5:41 AM
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: ABH 2 Aris: The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day

      Jack: I see at least four unknown factors: the size of the spectacular object, the distance between the object and earth, the speed, and the gravitational effect. Of course the larger, the closer, the faster and the pop effect would be more notable, whlie the lesser size, distance, speed and pull would give a less notable effect. Indeed and combination of the factors (plus unknowns) gives variables with parameters. Certainly more evidence would be needed to zero in on all those factors (puls my favorite: when did it happen?) Same requirements needed for the flood, and all those other disasasters of "biblical proportions."Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

      --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

      From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
      Subject: Re: ABH Aris: The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 2:56 PM

      Aris, Very large ateroids that are classifies as "Near Earth Objects" come very close to earth frequently, some passing between the earth and the moon, (see below). For one to be as visible and close as you describe, it would not effect the earth unless it hit.

      Jack

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFJWBZSXjB4&NR=1

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgyoNuhLyd4

      Jack

      From: aris hobeth
      Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 5:26 AM
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: ABH Aris: The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day

      Falling rocks from the sky certainly may not be predictable, however, a 'close' approach of some visible thing in the sky, with an obvious orbit, may be predictable. The gravitational attraction between the earth and the object need not actually be a "hit", but the effects of the "passover" may indeed cause earth-shaking volcanic catastrophes from the gravitational disruptions.

      An Egyptian tale, "Destruction of Mankind by Ra" describes how the cow goddess Hathor (who had horns) was sent by Ra (the sun god) to attack the earth. She changed from cowness (visually horned) to a wild lioness Sehkmet whose mane of hair changed into snaky fire things which threw blazing rocks at Egypt. Concurrent disasters killed many, until Ra called her off. Visually another tale describes the scene as a heavenly visual snake being chopped into pieces by the big cat. (A second extraterrestrial ojbect?)Sounds detailed and spectacular. And may have been predictable. Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth

      --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:

      From: Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...>
      Subject: Re: ABH The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 6:19 AM

      Hi Toby,

      You are right about the text, but I cannot prove that stones, meteorite or
      otherwise, fell onto the heads of people so severely as to kill many. This is
      possible to have occurred, if big lumps of meteorites fell, but I still think
      that it was then most likely part of the Perseïde meteorite showers, and that
      most people would simply have run and hide as soon as this started to happen. I
      have no problem with the possibility that some meteorites were big enough to
      kill people. such do reach the ground once in a while, but it's not predictable
      in any way, nor is the quantity of it.

      Regards,
      Ian Onvlee
      Holland

      ________________________________
      From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
      To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 5:31:13 AM
      Subject: Re: ABH The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day

      Hi Ian,

      you wrote:
      > I agree that the hail stones are just as much a real phenomenon, but I don't
      >see
      >
      > them as killing the enemy. I see them as making the enemy flee out of fear. As
      >I
      >
      > read that part of the Bible, the enemy was defeated without being killed by the
      >
      > sword.

      What version are you using?

      The philistines in almost every version I read were killed both by the sword and
      by the hailstones, and more of them died by the hailstones than the sword.

      Jos 10:11

      NASV
      ... there were more who died *from the hailstones than those whom the sons of
      Israel killed with the sword.

      NIV
      ...more of them died from the hailstones than were killed by the swords of the
      Israelites.

      KJV
      .... [they were] more which died with hailstones than [they] whom the children
      of Israel slew with the sword.

      YLT
      ... more are they who have died by the hailstones than they whom the sons of
      Israel have slain by the sword.

      WEB
      ... more who died with hailstones than [they] whom the children of Israel slew
      with the sword.

      NKJV
      ....There were more who died from the hailstones than the children of Israel
      killed with the sword.

      NLT
      ... The hail killed more of the enemy than the Israelites killed with the sword.

      ESV
      ...There were more who died because of the hailstones than the sons of Israel
      killed with the sword.

      Toby

      The text doesn't say explicitly - in my view, at least - that the
      > hailstones literally killed them on the spot. I think that the phenomenon is
      > very likely the falling meteorites of the Perseïds (apparently diverging from

      > the kingly constellation Perseus). These indeed fall from right above the
      >people
      >
      > in the Near East and they are the most frequent and spectacular of all
      > known yearly meteorite showers. During a battle meteorite showers always
      >scared
      >
      > the wits out of  people, similar to an eclipse, seeing it as a sign of angry

      > gods. Since the Israelites had a different god, and were likely not scared so

      > easily by such heavenly phenomenon, perhaps even been encouraged by it, the
      > Canaanites may very well have been defeated without a blow of the sword.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Ian Onvlee
      > HollandÂ
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@...>
      > To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 1:36:07 AM
      > Subject: Re: ABH The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day
      >
      > Â
      > Hi Ian,
      >
      > I agree with what you say.
      >
      > The problem I have with Josh 10 being poetic, is that the Philistines dying by

      > hailstones was real, not poetic. The hailstones were real. The hailstones are
      > indication of a meteor/asteroid/comet.
      >
      > Toby
      >
      > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Toby,
      > >
      > > Seeing Joshua's account as poetical does not mean to question the Bible as
      >
      > > inspired by God. A poem or an expression can just as well be inspired
      >by
      >
      > >God,
      > >
      > > since God is everywhere and everything, always. A flower, a bird, the blowing
      >
      > > wind, all are inspired by God. Seeing Joshua's account as poetical only
      >
      > >brings
      > >
      > > into question the way it is currently written and read,
      >its interpretation
      >
      > >and
      > >
      > > translations, which are all undeniably done by human beings
      >with their
      >
      > >writing
      > >
      > > and printing tools, their voices and their beliefs, both true and false.
      > >
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Ian Onvlee
      > > HollandÂÂ
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Ian Onvlee <sambacats@>
      > > To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Sun, February 20, 2011 7:21:09 PM
      > > Subject: Re: ABH The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day
      > >
      > > ÂÂ
      > > hi Toby,
      > >
      > > Is this Egyptian text supposed to date from the time of Ramesses II? And what
      >
      > >is
      > >
      > >
      > > the name or catalogue number of the papyrus, and where is it now? How is
      > > this text or its translation authenticated? I have not encountered it in
      >any
      >
      > > serious Egyptological work so far. There are many so-called translations of
      > > Egyptian texts that date from the time Champolion still struggled
      > > with decyphering them, so we should be careful in accepting and citing a
      > > translation, before we can discuss the implications.
      > >
      > > For one thing: Gideon is only about an hour from Egypt, so whatever
      > >phenomenon
      > >
      > > it was, the sun's position should only be about 15 degrees further to the
      >East
      >
      > >
      > > in Egypt at the time of the event. So if the sun indeed stood
      >still above
      >
      > >Gideon
      > >
      > >
      > > for Joshua, that is at noon, as the text suggests, then it should have been
      > > around 11 am for the Egyptians, not around sunrise (morning), let alone
      >before
      >
      > >
      > > sunrise. therefore the text does not suggest to be the same event as Joshua's
      >
      > > account, unless the story has been altered (the Biblical one, the Egyptian
      >
      > >one,
      > >
      > > or both).
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Ian Onvlee,
      > > holland
      > >
      > > ÂÂ
      > >
      > > ________________________________
      > > From: Toby <zoe_lithoi@>
      > > To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Sun, February 20, 2011 6:58:32 AM
      > > Subject: ABH The Egyptian Account of Joshua's Long Day
      > >
      > > ÂÂ
      > > If Joshua's long day was not literal, then why did other cultures throughout

      > >the
      > >
      > >
      > > world record a day where the Sun lasted much longer than it should, or the
      > >night
      > >
      > >
      > > lasted much longer than it should or the morning lasted much longer than it
      > > should?
      > >
      > > If it were not for the above, I could understand, logically, how those who
      > > believe the Bible is not inspired by God, ... how they can think Joshua's
      >long
      >
      >
      > > day was just a poetic piece of work.
      > >
      > > Nevertheless, there are ancient records from others, arguably, of this same
      > > event. Consider the Egyptian Account, which I found from an authorless
      >article,
      >
      > >
      > > though the article does give a reference for the Egyptian Heiroglyph
      > > translation....
      > >
      > > "For the Egyptian account, we find that the French classical scholar, Fernand
      >
      > > Crombette, translated some Egyptian hieroglyphics which tell of Joshua's long
      >
      > > day.25 The text starts out with an edict from the king to exempt from
      >taxation
      >
      >
      > > those who had been victims of a flood some two weeks earlier. Evidently the
      > > flood had been caused by an unusually high tide. The cause, according to the

      > > Egyptian hieroglyphics, was: "
      > >
      > > ===================================================================
      > > The sun, thrown into confusion, had remained low on the horizon, and by not
      > > rising had spread terror amongst the great doctors. Two days had been rolled

      > > into one. The morning was lengthened to one-and-a-half times the normal
      >period
      >
      >
      > > of effective daylight. A certain time after this divine phenomenon, the
      >master
      >
      >
      > > had an image built to keep further misfortune from the country.
      > >
      > > Hephaistos...grant protection to your worshipers. Prevent the words of these

      > > foreign travelers from having any effect. They are impostors. Let these
      >enemies
      >
      > >
      > > of the sacrifices to the images be destroyed in the temples of the great gods
      >
      > >by
      > >
      > >
      > > the people of all classes. Make life harder for these cursed worshipers of
      >the
      >
      >
      > > Eternal. Punish them. Increase the hardships of these shepherds. Reduce the
      > >size
      > >
      > >
      > > of their herds. Burn their dwellings.
      > >
      > > Rameses, our celestial ancestral chief; you who forced these wretched people
      >to
      >
      > >
      > > work, who ill-treated them, who gave them no help when they were in need:
      >cast
      >
      >
      > > them into the sea. They made the moon stop in a small angle at the edge of
      >the
      >
      >
      > > horizon. In a small angle on the edge of the horizon, the sun itself, which
      >had
      >
      > >
      > > just risen at the spot where the moon was going, instead of crossing the sky

      > > stayed where it was. Whilst the moon, following a narrow path, reduced its
      > >speed
      > >
      > >
      > > and climbed slowly, the sun stopped moving and its intensity of light was
      > > reduced to the brightness at daybreak. The waves formed a wall of water
      >against
      >
      > >
      > > the boats that were in the harbor and those that had left it. Those fishermen
      >
      > > that had ventured onto the deck to watch the waves were washed into the sea.
      > >
      > > The tide, which had risen high, overflowed into the plains where the herds
      >were
      >
      > >
      > > grazing. The cattle drowned represented half the herds of Lower Egypt. The
      > > remains of abandoned boats broken against the sides of the canals were piled
      >up
      >
      > >
      > > in places. Their anchors, which should have protected them, had been ground
      > >into
      > >
      > >
      > > them. Quite out of control, the sea had penetrated deep into the country. The
      >
      > > expanding waters reached the fortified walls constructed by Rameses, the
      > > celestial ancestral chief. The sea swept around both sides of the region
      > >behind,
      > >
      > >
      > > sterilizing the gar dens as it went and causing openings in the dikes. A
      >great
      >
      >
      > > country had been turned into a wilderness and brought into poverty. All the
      > > crops that had been planted had been destroyed and heaps of cereal shoots lay
      >
      > > scattered on the ground.
      > >
      > > (25.) The translation that follows came from the Cercle Scientifique et
      > > Historique, France and Belgium. It is presumably taken from among Crombette's
      >
      > > three volumes of Verdique Historique de l'Egypte Antique.
      > >
      > > =================================================================
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > > Toby
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >

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    • Ian Onvlee
      Rich, to keep it scientifically: yes no = no not no = yes yes yes = yes not yes = no Ian Onvlee Holland ________________________________ From: richfaussette
      Message 385 of 385 , Apr 6, 2011
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        Rich,

        to keep it scientifically:

        yes no = no
        not no = yes
        yes yes = yes
        not yes = no

        Ian Onvlee
        Holland




        ________________________________
        From: richfaussette <RFaussette@...>
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, April 6, 2011 4:28:49 AM
        Subject: ABH Re: Science in Genesis

         


        --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...> wrote:
        >
        > Rich,
        >
        > <<As for Moses and the Midianites, I didn't post anything about them and I
        >agree that the slaughter was not moral, but then the point is moot because I
        >myself told you in my post that the Torah was amoral. >>
        >
        > not moral is immoral, not amoral.
        >
        > Ian Onvlee
        > Holland.
        >
        >

        When I wrote that I agreed that the slaughter was not moral, it was my opinion
        based on an obvious departure from my set of moral standards.
        I then specifically said that the point was moot because the Torah is amoral;
        not my opinion this time based on a departure from my moral standards, but moot
        because there is science in the Torah. Science is amoral. There can be no
        departure from a moral standard that does not exist.

        Amorality (no standards) is NOT morality (standards).
        That makes perfect sense.

        Endure.
        :)

        Rich Faussette




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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