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Re: Baalbek and the golden calf

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  • andrej1234au
    Holly ... Fictional or not, it s still more believable than the Sinai thing, and atleast tells us that the rite was Canaanite. ... Because there s no
    Message 1 of 347 , May 1, 2009
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      Holly

      > I don't think there was a Jeroboam, an Ephraimite who was Solomon's Simon Legree. The whole episode sounds too fictional to me.

      Fictional or not, it's still more believable than the Sinai thing, and atleast tells us that the rite was Canaanite.

      > Why would you doubt that the Israelites were in Egypt?

      Because there's no archaeological or textual evidence from the Egyptian side.

      > I have no qualms about attributing the Passover to Canaanite ritual that was converted to a remembrance of the clan of Jacob in Egypt. Taking a foreign ritual and converting it to one's own religious use is a time honored tradition.

      Canaanites celebrating a Canaanite ritual is hardly 'taking a foreign ritual and converting it', Holly.

      aj
    • louis demarest
      Hi aj ... I m not interested in India s contribution to the topic, aj, unless there is something relevant that could add to the discussion. There is, on the
      Message 347 of 347 , Jul 6, 2009
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        Hi aj

        >Bull imagary may also have been located in Sumeria, but I'm not
        >convinced that that was it's place of origin, any more than I'm
        >convinced that it's also the origin of India's penchant for bovines.

        I'm not interested in India's contribution to the topic, aj, unless
        there is something relevant that could add to the discussion. There
        is, on the otherhand, good reasons to look to Sumerian, Babylonian
        and the Akkadian sources for the origins of the familiar mythical
        themes and tropes that apparently continued on in the religion, rites,
        literature and beliefs of the populace at Ugarit and Canaan.

        Here are just a few threads that suggest a Sumerian / Akkadain
        origin for ideas that passed into Canaanite thought and beliefs.

        The origin of Yamm and Judge Nahar? The apsu was identifed
        with the sea in general, but more specifically with the "deep" part
        of the sea or ocean. The god Ea dwelt within the the Apsu and so
        we read: "Ea, the judge who give judgments, sees your face from
        inside the Apsu." In the book, "Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography"
        the author explains that "the depths of the river seem to be called
        Apsu". (pg 340) Does this passage provide possible insight into the
        origin for Yamm's identification with Judge Nahar?

        Another connection concerns the seven-demons. The author, W.
        Horowitz, explains that "Seven demons live in.... the spring of the
        Apsu", and that disease may come up from the Apsu. (pg 343)
        The author suggests that these "seven demons from the underworld..
        ....(can) wreak havoc on the earth's surface, (and) once came to the
        sides of the Apsu".

        The son of Ea was Marduk and was known as "bulf calf of the sun",
        who, interestingly, was associated with seven-demon gatekeepers
        to the underworld. The author explains there often appears to
        be a confusion between the apsu and the underworld in various texts.
        The seven demon / gatekeeps are called the "great gallu-demons",
        which appear in "the form of a bull". So here it would appear that we
        have a likely connection to the (seven) demons of (sea) Yamm?
        Finally, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, the "crosser of the sea is Shamash"
        -- "eber tamti samas" (pg 103) reminding us of the Israelites who
        "pass" or cross yam suph.

        >I guess at the end of the day we don't - and (at this stage) can't - know
        >what became of the Ugaritic myths.

        best regards,
        Louis


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: andrej1234au
        To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 2:29 AM
        Subject: ABH Re: The Golden Calf - Exodus vs. Kings





        Hi Louis

        > Here's Oldenburg translation of the passage containing the ref to Atik, which differs from your source.
        >
        > Oldenburg writes:
        > I extirpated the calf of El, Demon!

        Driver also mentions 'monstrous' as a tranlation, but it really doesn't matter: it's the calf I'm seeking to identify, and neither proper names nor varying adjectives alter the fact that it's present.

        > In the footnote Oldenburg explains: "Utukku (Summerian loanword), 'demon'." pg 198

        It's always possible, I guess, but in the last instance plausibility can only be based upon the frequency of other Sumerian loanwords in the Ugaritic vocabulary.

        > As I mentioned earlier, the Bull imagery or motif representing divinity and the gods originates with the Sumerians, ...

        Bull imagary may also have been located in Sumeria, but I'm not convinced that that was it's place of origin, any more than I'm convinced that it's also the origin of India's penchant for bovines.

        > The primary inconsistency lies in the fact that yam is the favored son of El at Ugarit, whereas in the Tanach yam is naturalized and defeated / divided by Yahweh.

        I see no inconsistency: Yahwite priests writing centuries after the Ugaritic texts (an issue you raised earlier) would doubtless have had a far different understanding of their deity than those earlier texts portray, even if Yahweh is a later development of Yaw (of which I'm not wholly convinced).

        I guess at the end of the day we don't - and (at this stage) can't - know what became of the Ugaritic myths.

        aj





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