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Re: Khufu Long Before Moses

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  • andrej1234au
    Bergen ... It s just another theory, Bergen, just as Samaritan scholars dating the Exodus to the year 1682 BCE is just another theory. aj
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 1, 2007
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      Bergen

      > From the surviving perspective of all known early
      > Islamic writers, the pharaoh of the Great Pyramid lived
      > long before Moses, by some centuries.

      It's just another theory, Bergen, just as Samaritan scholars dating the
      Exodus to the year 1682 BCE is just another theory.

      aj
    • andrej1234au
      Aris ... Firstly, I think that the drowning of Pharaoh s army is purely symbolic, or if it was based upon some real historical event then it happened in no
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 1, 2007
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        Aris

        > What year do you have for the Tsunami and Exodus?

        Firstly, I think that the drowning of Pharaoh's army is purely
        symbolic, or if it was based upon some real historical event then it
        happened in no wise similar to that which we read in the Bible.

        Secondly, I do not ascribe to any one theory regarding the Exodus: my
        original research lead me to the middle of the 19th dynasty (Pharaoh
        Amenmesse), subsequent research has pointed me toward the 26th dynasty
        (Pharaoh Ahmasis) and the 4th dynasty (the Pharaohs of Artapanus). They
        all have their advantages, but they all also have their drawbacks.

        aj
      • andrej1234au
        Bergen ... Why this particular period, Bergen? aj
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 1, 2007
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          Bergen

          > Not sure whether you are addressing this question to
          > me, or to AJ. There are many different opinions on
          > the Exodus Date and so long as we are in agreement
          > that event was real, one might suggest choosing any date
          > between let us say 1450 and 1275 BC according to
          > taste and preferences. My understanding is somewhere
          > between 1313 and 1310, similar to Sayce and Kenyon.

          Why this particular period, Bergen?

          aj
        • andrej1234au
          Bergen ... A few questions, Bergen-: 1. To which time did St Augustine date Moses? 2. Why would he assume that floods in Greece necessarily equate to floods in
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 1, 2007
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            Bergen

            > Go and read St. Augustine, because he does indeed mention
            > floods in the time of Moses, on the coasts of Greece. He
            > reports this from non-Biblical sources.

            A few questions, Bergen-:

            1. To which time did St Augustine date Moses?

            2. Why would he assume that floods in Greece necessarily equate to
            floods in Egypt (the concept of the tsunami seems to have become
            awfully fashionable on this list since the events of 26.12.2004, but I
            doubt Augustine had the benefit of such hindsight).

            3. What are these non-Biblical sources?

            aj
          • bergendelperon
            Holly wrote to Bergen: See if you can get a copy of the Hadiths. Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari are on line. If you read these Hadiths, you will find that they
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 1, 2007
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              Holly wrote to Bergen:

              See if you can get a copy of the Hadiths. Sahih Muslim and Sahih
              Bukhari are on line. If you read these Hadiths, you will find that
              they are quotes or interpretations of Christian and Jewish literature
              and are labelled by current Islamic scholars as "Israeliat" meaning
              that these sayings were taken from Christian and Jewish sources
              rather than being actual sayings of Muhammad.

              . . . . .

              Dear Holly,

              The Hadiths sound intriguing, but it would only be possible
              to confirm their 'Chrisitan and Jewish' origins if the latter ever
              acknowledge their cultures as being the sources! They do not, so far
              as I know. Perhaps current Islamic scholars have a propaganda
              agenda?

              Islamic authors quoted by Andre Pochan and many others were
              mainly travellers, physicians, scholars and highly learned men
              from several countries: Iraq, Persia, Damascenes and Arabia.
              No doubt they were all faithful Muslims and Hadith literature
              does not appear to enter their remarks on our subject, the
              Great Pyramid at Gizeh (Giza).

              They do mention some Copts as sources, but in the same breath
              go on to discount whatever the Copts had to say ... because
              they were not Muslim, obviously. As for Jews, they are not even
              recorded.

              From the Coptic Christians and early Church Fathers, I have
              never been able to locate comments on the Great Pyramid.
              As for the Jewish Talmud, translations appear in libraries and it
              has not been possible to find in these so much as a whisper
              about Cheops, Khufu or the Great Pyramid. They merely
              report what is well known over here for a long time, that their
              ancestors were forced to build Storage Cities in Egypt.

              If Khufu had lived in the time of Moses, well then by now we
              would have heard considerable Boasting; ... after all this is a
              structure among the World's 7 Wonders, is it not so ?

              Bergen
            • gmrf
              Bergen: The point of the Israeliat hadiths was to attribute them to Muhammad and not to their actual sources (something like what the authors of the gospels
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 1, 2007
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                Bergen:
                The point of the Israeliat hadiths was to attribute them to Muhammad
                and not to their actual sources (something like what the authors of
                the gospels did when they attributed to Jesus quotes which originated
                from other sources in order to make a point. The body and blood quote
                is a good example). We don't know who made up these hadiths, but we
                do know that they contradict each other as well as the Quran,
                something Muhammad would not have done. Certain scholars, especially
                those court scholars of the Ummayyids and Abassids may have had an
                interest in manufacturing Israeliat Hadiths in order to convince
                their Christian and Jewish subjects of the veracity of Muhammad's
                prophethood. Many of the Umayyid and Abbasid "caliphs" were more
                interested in expanding their powerbase than in fostering true
                religious scholarship. Also, no Hadith scholars were interested in
                tracing these Hadiths to their actual sources. They were interested
                in tracing them to Muhammad by using a chain of transmitters, all of
                whom were dead at the time of the collection. The Hadiths are, in
                many cases like the Gospels, based on hearsay, interpretation and
                false attribution. The only hadiths to which I give credence are
                those Hadiths based on the events in Mecca and Medina. These events
                would have been passed down from generation to generation as it was
                an honor to have been a descendant of the sahaba (the companions of
                the Prophet). The "Biblical" hadiths are bogus as the sources can be
                traced to literature existing at the time these Hadiths were
                collected.

                As for Khufu being the pharaoh of Muhammad, I doubt that anyone knew
                of Khufu during the time of Muhammad. We know from the Quran that his
                chief builder was Haman whose tomb was discovered next to the great
                pyramid at Giza in 1912. You can look Haman (Hemiunu) on line. Here
                is the quote in the Quran:

                028:038
                *
                URL And Pharaoh said: O chiefs! I know not that ye have a god other
                than me, so kindle for me (a fire), O Haman, to bake the mud; and set
                up for me a lofty tower in order that I may survey the God of Moses;
                and lo! I deem him of the liars.
                end quote

                This interpretation of the text is a little bit off. Here is the
                actual text and its transliteration:
                .
                ‏وَقَالَ فِرْعَوْنُ يَٟٓأَيُّهَا ٱلْمَلَأُ مَا عَلِمْتُ لَكُم مِّنْ إِلَٟهٍ غَيْرِى فَأَوْقِدْ لِى يَٟهَٟمَٟنُ عَلَى
                ٱلطِّينِ فَٱجْعَل لِّى صَرْحًۭا لَّعَلِّىٓ أَطَّلِعُ إِلَىٰٓ إِلَٟهِ مُوسَىٰ وَإِنِّى لَأَظُنُّهُۥ مِنَ ٱلْكَٟذِبِينَ ‎
                waqa'la firʕawnu yaʔ'ʔay:uha' 'lmala'ʔu ma' ʕalimtu lakum
                m:in 'ʔilahin ɣayriy fa'ʔawqid liy yahamanu ʕalay 'lṭ:iyni fa'jʕal
                l:iy ṣarḥanm' l:aʕal:iyʔ 'ʔaṭ:aliʕu 'ʔilay'ʔ 'ʔilahi muwsay' wa'ʔin:iy
                la'ʔaẓun:uhuw mina 'lkaĆ°ibiyna

                The text actually says: "O Haman kindle (awqid) (fire) on the clay
                (alatini) and build for me (fajalalii) a tall (ali) impressive
                building (sirhan which means impressive building)etc.

                As you know, the first order of building a pyramid would be to build
                the kilns to fire the clay jars that were used to store food for the
                workers. Kilns were prolific during the Old Kingdom and they were
                developing the potters wheel too. There is a very interesting article
                about the over 1/2 million pottery shards dating from the 4th Dynasty
                found surrounding the great pyramid at Giza at this site:
                http://www.aeraweb.org/lost_city_age.asp
                Its a good article.
                Hope this Helps
                Holly


                --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "bergendelperon"
                <bergendelperon@...> wrote:
                >
                > Holly wrote to Bergen:
                >
                > See if you can get a copy of the Hadiths. Sahih Muslim and Sahih
                > Bukhari are on line. If you read these Hadiths, you will find that
                > they are quotes or interpretations of Christian and Jewish
                literature
                > and are labelled by current Islamic scholars as "Israeliat" meaning
                > that these sayings were taken from Christian and Jewish sources
                > rather than being actual sayings of Muhammad.
                >
                > . . . . .
                >
                > Dear Holly,
                >
                > The Hadiths sound intriguing, but it would only be possible
                > to confirm their 'Chrisitan and Jewish' origins if the latter ever
                > acknowledge their cultures as being the sources! They do not, so far
                > as I know. Perhaps current Islamic scholars have a propaganda
                > agenda?
                >
                > Islamic authors quoted by Andre Pochan and many others were
                > mainly travellers, physicians, scholars and highly learned men
                > from several countries: Iraq, Persia, Damascenes and Arabia.
                > No doubt they were all faithful Muslims and Hadith literature
                > does not appear to enter their remarks on our subject, the
                > Great Pyramid at Gizeh (Giza).
                >
                > They do mention some Copts as sources, but in the same breath
                > go on to discount whatever the Copts had to say ... because
                > they were not Muslim, obviously. As for Jews, they are not even
                > recorded.
                >
                > From the Coptic Christians and early Church Fathers, I have
                > never been able to locate comments on the Great Pyramid.
                > As for the Jewish Talmud, translations appear in libraries and it
                > has not been possible to find in these so much as a whisper
                > about Cheops, Khufu or the Great Pyramid. They merely
                > report what is well known over here for a long time, that their
                > ancestors were forced to build Storage Cities in Egypt.
                >
                > If Khufu had lived in the time of Moses, well then by now we
                > would have heard considerable Boasting; ... after all this is a
                > structure among the World's 7 Wonders, is it not so ?
                >
                > Bergen
                >
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