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ABH Re: Geographica Perspectives in the Past (was: Hellbing and the Arslan Tesh)

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  • driver40386
    ... Interesting. Written in what, Linear A, B? References would be good. ... Yes, but there is no ethnicity in art. Scholars learned their lesson when
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 1, 2006
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      --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, Italo <cucaro@...> wrote:

      > At four of the places mentioned on that list in the temple
      > of Amenophis III were faience plaques found with the name of
      > Amenophis III or his wife Teje. Coincidence? At Mycenae both
      > his birth- and king-name are written on what appears to've
      > been the faience decoration of an entrance - six fragments
      > of Egyptian faience were found there, leading some to think
      > of an imported "Egyptian room".

      Interesting.
      Written in what, Linear A, B?
      References would be good.


      > But the wallpaintings of Avaris are minoan. A bull before a
      > labyrinth (with a Theseus avant la lettre), a bull-leaper, a
      > gryphon, rosette decorations, etc. The mother of Ahmose-I
      > even held the title "Mistress of the Hau-nebut".

      Yes, but there is no ethnicity in art. Scholars learned their lesson
      when Philistine Bichrome was found to be locally made. Art was & is
      copied.


      > Here are Keftiu depicted as bringing tribute; an ingot, a
      > rhyton, a metal vessel - typical Keftian-work? :

      Answer this, "what did a Phoenician look like in this period?


      > Can you give an example where Aegean products reach Egypt
      > via Asiatic traders?

      Are you talking of texts, reliefs or an itinerary?


      > Where did Egypt get silver? iron?

      I think "Materials & Industry" by Lucas will provide those answers,
      didn't he suggest Iron was sourced in Asiatic countries? and Silver
      "may have been" sourced from Mesopotamia, Cyprus & Keftiu.

      Regards, Jon
    • Italo
      ... I mixed things up, Hittite was indeed used as the diplomatic language. The Hittites probably communicated with Ahhiyawa in Hittite. And Hittite was even
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 1, 2006
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        I wrote:

        > John wrote:

        >> OK, granted about Diplomatic languages. But the
        >> Diplomatic language at the time of the Hittite Empire
        >> was Akkadian or Neshili (Hittite) not Luwian.
        >
        > Only for the east. For the countries bordering on the
        > west was always some form of Luwian used.

        I mixed things up, Hittite was indeed used as the diplomatic
        language. The Hittites probably communicated with Ahhiyawa
        in Hittite. And Hittite was even used between Arzawa and
        Egypt (Amarna EA31/32). It is rather as Lingua Franca that
        Luwian may've been used, in west Anatolia, not as
        international diplomatic language.

        >> To argue that we don't know what languages were used in
        >> Assuwa is true except that the KKing of Assuwa always
        >> addressed the Labarnas of Hattusas in Luwian, not
        >> Akkadian or Neshili.

        Is there a reference for this?


        Regards,

        Italo
      • Italo
        ... fragments of six to nine faience plaques , to be precise. ... In Egyptian hieroglyphs. Of the six places in the Aegean where plaques with A. s cartouche
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 1, 2006
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          driver40386 wrote:

          > --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, Italo
          > <cucaro@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >> At four of the places mentioned on that list in the
          >> temple of Amenophis III were faience plaques found with
          >> the name of Amenophis III or his wife Teje.
          >> Coincidence? At Mycenae both his birth- and king-name
          >> are written on what appears to've been the faience
          >> decoration of an entrance - six fragments of Egyptian
          >> faience
          "fragments of six to nine faience plaques", to be precise.

          >> were found there, leading some to think of an imported
          >> "Egyptian room".
          >
          >
          > Interesting. Written in what, Linear A, B? References
          > would be good.

          In Egyptian hieroglyphs.
          Of the six places in the Aegean where plaques with A.'s
          cartouche are found, the following appear on A.'s
          topographic list: Knossos, Phaistos, Kydonia and Mykenai.
          (ref. Latacz(2001), p.163/4.)

          >> But the wallpaintings of Avaris are minoan. A bull
          >> before a labyrinth (with a Theseus avant la lettre), a
          >> bull-leaper, a gryphon, rosette decorations, etc. The
          >> mother of Ahmose-I even held the title "Mistress of the
          >> Hau-nebut".
          >
          >
          > Yes, but there is no ethnicity in art.

          Sure looks Cretan to me.
          http://shot.holycross.edu/courses/restrictedimg.cgi.en?photoid=1998.03.0660
          http://shot.holycross.edu/courses/viewthumbs?db=imgs&mode=thumbs&caption=Avaris

          > Scholars learned their lesson when Philistine Bichrome
          > was found to be locally made. Art was & is copied.

          What about the Trojan grey ware? apparently this was
          inferior to the locally produced stuff, yet it is found in
          Palestine.

          >> Here are Keftiu depicted as bringing tribute; an ingot,
          >> a rhyton, a metal vessel - typical Keftian-work? :
          >
          >
          > Answer this, "what did a Phoenician look like in this
          > period?

          They would look like people carrying 'Phoenician' products.
          Would they offer a bull-rhyton as gift?


          >> Where did Egypt get silver? iron?
          >
          >
          > I think "Materials & Industry" by Lucas will provide
          > those answers, didn't he suggest Iron was sourced in
          > Asiatic countries? and Silver "may have been" sourced
          > from Mesopotamia, Cyprus & Keftiu.

          Silver was mined at Laurion (at least since the Egyptian
          middle kingdom period), but also in west Anatolia.

          Iron melting was done on Crete in the EMIII (before 2000BC -
          judging from the iron slag used in the floor of a tholos
          tomb). The mycenaeans made daggers of iron, they could've
          produced Tutankhamon's dagger. The beakers in the gift of
          the Tnjw to Tuthmosis III may be of iron.


          Regards,

          Italo
        • John
          Italo asked ... Yes, but Labarna was merely the title of the Hittite king (Like Caesar or Augustus in Roman history). ... Italo, is there any archaeological
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 2, 2006
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            Italo asked
            > Isn't the oldest mention of Assuwa some time after Labarna?


            Yes, but Labarna was merely the title of the Hittite king (Like Caesar
            or Augustus in Roman history).

            > The pre-IE languages of west and south Anatolia, Crete, the
            > Aegean isles, and Cyprus may have belonged to the same
            > group. Eteocretan (linear-A) would then be one of these.
            > Pelasgs from Greece (and Tyrsenoi) settled among these
            > indigenous peoples on the Anatolian coast as well as on
            > Crete, maybe at Crete first - but in any case before the
            > Luwians expand to west Anatolia. Or so it _could_ have been,
            > IMO.

            Italo, is there any archaeological evidence of the arrival of
            Tyrrhenian or Pelasgoi from the west in Anatolia? Palmer effecively
            showed how Grey Minyan ware pottery was Luwian in origin. Is this what
            you refer to?

            Regards

            John
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