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the Original Jesus - Did he really preach an End of Days?

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  • andrej1234au
    George ... I can hardly imagine that the Essene movement constituted Jewish Israel . aj
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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      George

      > Here Tertullian is speaking out against the Essene movements of old
      > and anyone else that practiced daily baptizing. This text from the
      > 200's indicates that these practices were continuing well past the
      > expected demise of the Essenes.

      I can hardly imagine that the Essene movement constituted 'Jewish
      Israel'.

      aj
    • andrej1234au
      George ... The text reads-: The daily ablutions, the new-moon observances, the careful inspection of leprosy are completely past and gone, ... New-moon
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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        George

        > There was a PROLIFERATION of Jewish sects that practiced
        > baptism.
        >
        > But where did these influences come from? I am skeptical that they
        > came from the Old Testament!

        The text reads-:
        "The daily ablutions, the new-moon observances, the careful inspection
        of leprosy are completely past and gone, ..."

        New-moon observances and careful inspections of leprosy are both parts
        of the law of the OT, so presumably the writer of this thought daily
        ablutions were likewise.

        Why? Was they?

        aj
      • George
        AJ, And I can hardly imagine that main stream Judaism or the rabbinical traditions ever had daily ablutions. Do you think thus? Regards, George
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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          AJ,

          And I can hardly imagine that main stream Judaism or the rabbinical
          traditions ever had daily ablutions.

          Do you think thus?

          Regards,

          George

          --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "andrej1234au"
          <andrej1234au@y...> wrote:
          >
          > George
          >
          > > Here Tertullian is speaking out against the Essene movements of old
          > > and anyone else that practiced daily baptizing. This text from the
          > > 200's indicates that these practices were continuing well past the
          > > expected demise of the Essenes.
          >
          > I can hardly imagine that the Essene movement constituted 'Jewish
          > Israel'.
          >
          > aj
          >
        • George
          AJ, You write: New-moon observances and careful inspections of leprosy are both parts of the law of the OT, so presumably the writer of this thought daily
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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            AJ,

            You write:
            "New-moon observances and careful inspections of leprosy are both
            parts of the law of the OT, so presumably the writer of this thought
            daily ablutions were likewise. Why? Was they?"

            For a Christian to misunderstand Judaism is not unlikely. And if
            Christianity emerged from a Jewish tradition of "daily ablutions",
            the likelihood for confusion is even more likely.

            It would be OTHER Jews who opposed the need for daily ablutions.
            For example, as careful and disciplined as the Pharisees were, do you
            know of ANY Pharisees who pursued daily ablutions?

            I do not. But I am ready to be corrected in this matter.

            Regards,

            George
          • andrej1234au
            George ... What I think is quite immaterial. This is what Tertullian thought, though, and the question is, Why? aj
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 1, 2005
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              George

              > > > >"Once and once only, therefore, we enter the bath, once for
              > > > > all are sins washed away, because they must not be repeated.
              > > > > But the Jewish Israel washes daily, because he is
              > > > > daily soiled."

              > > > Here Tertullian is speaking out against the Essene movements
              > > > of old and anyone else that practiced daily baptizing. This
              > > > text from the 200's indicates that these practices were
              > > > continuing well past the expected demise of the Essenes.

              > > I can hardly imagine that the Essene movement constituted 'Jewish
              > > Israel'.

              > And I can hardly imagine that main stream Judaism or the rabbinical
              > traditions ever had daily ablutions.
              >
              > Do you think thus?

              What I think is quite immaterial. This is what Tertullian thought,
              though, and the question is, Why?

              aj
            • George
              AJ, You write: What I think is quite immaterial. This is what Tertullian thought, ... In this case, this is a debating technique, rather than one to derive
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                AJ,

                You write:

                "> What I think is quite immaterial. This is what Tertullian thought,
                > though, and the question is, Why?"

                In this case, this is a debating technique, rather than one to derive
                analytical conclusions.

                In an earlier post, you *DO* volunteer your opinion:

                "And I can hardly imagine that main stream Judaism or
                the rabbinical traditions ever had daily ablutions."

                And thus you open the door to my asking you OTHER things
                about your personal opinion.

                Turtullian describes a DAILY washing by "Jewish Israel".
                This is not the casual daily washing to get the sleep
                out of one's eyes (otherwise Turtullian would not have
                singled out "Jewish Israel".

                You, as a modern reader, find this difficult to interpret
                because we know that the Essenes are, technically speaking,
                a group that would represent *all Jews* or *all Israel*.

                And yet Turtullian uses the phrase about daily washing.

                So, as far as any histories tell us, he could only have
                meant the "baptizers" - - despite the fact modern readers
                would agree that this is not an all embracing group.

                Then why? Obviously Turtullian THINKS the baptizers
                are the key representatives for "Jewish Israel". Perhaps
                he is deliberately making a sweeping generalization.

                Or maybe his knowledge of the divisions within Judaism
                is quite impaired, and the only group he knows well is
                the Essene/Baptizer movement out of which Christianity
                emerged.

                The final point I should make is regardless of whether or
                not the above points are persuasive, Turtullian's comment
                certainly can't be used to defend a broadly based practice
                of daily ablutions ... because we know of no groups, other
                than the baptizing sects, that practiced in this way.

                Regards,

                George



                --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "andrej1234au"
                <andrej1234au@y...> wrote:
                >
                > George
                >
                > > > > >"Once and once only, therefore, we enter the bath, once for
                > > > > > all are sins washed away, because they must not be repeated.
                > > > > > But the Jewish Israel washes daily, because he is
                > > > > > daily soiled."
                >
                > > > > Here Tertullian is speaking out against the Essene movements
                > > > > of old and anyone else that practiced daily baptizing. This
                > > > > text from the 200's indicates that these practices were
                > > > > continuing well past the expected demise of the Essenes.
                >
                > > > I can hardly imagine that the Essene movement
                constituted 'Jewish
                > > > Israel'.
                >
                > > And I can hardly imagine that main stream Judaism or the
                rabbinical
                > > traditions ever had daily ablutions.
                > >
                > > Do you think thus?
                >
                > What I think is quite immaterial. This is what Tertullian thought,
                > though, and the question is, Why?
                >
                > aj
                >
              • andrej1234au
                George ... You (ie. me) versus we . Who are the we , George, because I d hardly say that they know that the Essenes constituted all Jewish Israel? You
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                  George

                  > You, as a modern reader, find this difficult to interpret
                  > because we know that the Essenes are, technically speaking,
                  > a group that would represent *all Jews* or *all Israel*.

                  'You' (ie. me) versus 'we'. Who are the 'we', George, because I'd
                  hardly say that they 'know' that the Essenes constituted all Jewish
                  Israel?

                  You must prove this statement, George, that the Essenes constituted all
                  Jewish Israel, or that Tertullian believed they did.

                  aj
                • George
                  AJ, I m not sure what is blocking your acceptance of this. It is the process of elimination and deduction. We know that JUDAISM in general didn t have DAILY
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 2, 2005
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                    AJ,

                    I'm not sure what is blocking your acceptance of this.
                    It is the process of elimination and deduction.

                    We know that JUDAISM in general didn't have DAILY
                    ablutions. Or do you think they did?

                    I will *NEED* your opinion... or we cannot discuss
                    our opinions. Unfortunately, Turtullian is no longer
                    available to expand on HIS opinion.

                    Regards,

                    George

                    --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "andrej1234au"
                    <andrej1234au@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > George
                    >
                    > > You, as a modern reader, find this difficult to interpret
                    > > because we know that the Essenes are, technically speaking,
                    > > a group that would represent *all Jews* or *all Israel*.
                    >
                    > 'You' (ie. me) versus 'we'. Who are the 'we', George, because I'd
                    > hardly say that they 'know' that the Essenes constituted all Jewish
                    > Israel?
                    >
                    > You must prove this statement, George, that the Essenes constituted
                    all
                    > Jewish Israel, or that Tertullian believed they did.
                    >
                    > aj
                    >
                  • andrej1234au
                    George ... Let s wait a short while longer and see if any new information comes to light. aj
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 3, 2005
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                      George

                      > We know that JUDAISM in general didn't have DAILY
                      > ablutions. Or do you think they did?

                      Let's wait a short while longer and see if any new information comes to
                      light.

                      aj
                    • George
                      AJ, One piece of OLD information is that Josephus distinguished the Essenes from the other branches of Judaism by describing their practice of daily ablutions.
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 3, 2005
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                        AJ,

                        One piece of OLD information is that Josephus distinguished
                        the Essenes from the other branches of Judaism by describing
                        their practice of daily ablutions.

                        This, I think, is the definitive attestation of the uniqueness
                        of Essene practices.

                        Regards,

                        George

                        --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "andrej1234au"
                        <andrej1234au@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > George
                        >
                        > > We know that JUDAISM in general didn't have DAILY
                        > > ablutions. Or do you think they did?
                        >
                        > Let's wait a short while longer and see if any new information
                        comes to
                        > light.
                        >
                        > aj
                        >
                      • aris hobeth
                        Didn t the rabbis complain to Jesus that his apostles were walking thru a wheat field picking at the grain and eating it. (without washing their hands) Jesus
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 3, 2005
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                          Didn't the rabbis complain to Jesus that his apostles were walking thru a wheat field picking at the grain and eating it. (without washing their hands) Jesus defended them. He cited David and his fellows eating the food reserved for the priests (apparently also ignoring the washing law and violating a much more important priestly law). Jesus seems to be saying the law is made for the people, not the people for the law.

                          Moses (paraphrased) said, "Follow my sanitary rules and you will live (not get diseased and die) and follow my moral law treating others well, and you will be therefore be happy.( what goes around will come around. The Bible constantly gives "payback" stories.)

                          I'm sure Moses' (and Egyptian) sanitary law included cleanliness, washing every day, avoiding contamination. Higher class Egyptians shaved completely to avoid lice. Note the wonderful wigs. They certainly disdained lower (dirty) classes for fear of contamination(s).

                          Even today Catholics bless themselves with holy water at the door of the church (certainly a cleanliness remnant). And the priest washes his hands immediately before touching the bread and wine (but since his hands are already clean, he doesnt use soap in the ritual). Occasionaly services require that the priest sprinkle the crowd with more holy water. Remnant ritual from a time when cleanliness was more difficult.

                          The jump to baptism as cleaning the soul, and to being "washed by the blood of the lamb" freeing the person from personal "dirt, or pollution" leads to the "health and cleanliness" of the mind and soul. The symbolism is loud and clear. Even today most people know that if you eat before washing your hands, or after using the bathroom, or shaking hands with a sick person you risk getting sick.

                          I just don't know what the ancient "punishment" for unsanitary behavior was. Cleaner people certainly freaked out when they observed the unwashed taking their chances (like many of us do today).

                          Sincerely, Aris M. Hobeth


                          andrej1234au <andrej1234au@...> wrote:
                          George

                          > We know that JUDAISM in general didn't have DAILY
                          > ablutions. Or do you think they did?

                          Let's wait a short while longer and see if any new information comes to
                          light.

                          aj





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