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Re: ABH Ararrat, Aker, Utu .... Louis - Moses and the Epic of Gilgamesh

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  • louisdemarest
    Marc, ... While there never were any worldwide floods there was a flood of such myths, the *fact* that biblical authors repeatedly, exploited this trope
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
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      Marc,

      > These twin mountains - and the first? I don't think a flood of biblical
      > proportions has been found in Armenia and if not, where is the logic or
      > kernel of truth in there being cause to propose a flood that would deposit
      > an ark in an area there was no flood?

      While there never were any worldwide floods there was a "flood" of such
      myths, the *fact* that biblical authors repeatedly, exploited this trope
      demonstrates that they held some conviction that it accurately communicated
      or represented the Divine purpose, judgment and will of Yahweh.

      >Then there is the Sumerian Utu preceding the Babylonian Shamash as sun god
      > and the earlier Utu is, none the less, pictured between two mountain
      peaks -
      > sunrise and sunset.

      The Sumerian Utu is the semitic deity, Shamash and glyphs of both groups
      picture the sun-god rising over twin-mountains, most often with 2 bulls
      (or animals with impressive "horns"; animals on the Zagros mountains.
      Shamash was the god of extispicy in the ancient near east, being
      able to predict the future accurately because he determined it; Shamash "cut
      the fates" of the living at sunrise. This is a theological concept that
      seems to
      be govern the sacrificial system of the Temple.
      The practice of extispicy is strongly condemned by the biblical authors and
      the evidence shows that such practices were common. By all means,
      please tell me --- why did the biblical writers find it so important to
      fashion their
      "God" (and myths) as a living god of a Holy mountain; who reveals his laws
      on
      a Mt. Sinai; Mt.Ararat, Mt Gerizim, and whose Temple is on a mount Zion?

      Many peoples shall go and say, "Come, let's go up to
      the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob;
      and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths."
      For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of
      Yahweh from Jerusalem.
      He will judge between the nations, and will decide
      concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords
      into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks.
      Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall
      they learn war any more.

      > What the heck is going on?


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Marc Washington" <best@...>
      To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:26 PM
      Subject: ABH Ararrat, Aker, Utu .... Louis - Moses and the Epic of Gilgamesh


      > These twin mountains - and the first? I don't think a flood of biblical
      > proportions has been found in Armenia and if not, where is the logic or
      > kernel of truth in there being cause to propose a flood that would deposit
      > an ark in an area there was no flood? But, those early days before and
      after
      > the flood saw interesting migrations. Samuel Noah Kramer, for instance,
      uses
      > old Armenian tablets or such showing En Merkar, the first king after the
      > flood in Mesopotamia, as originating in Armenia or thereabout in Turkey
      > based on a record of donkey-carried trade. It rather does not seem En
      Merkar
      > and his priests would be the ones to initiate a story of a flood at the
      foot
      > of Ararrat.
      >
      >
      >
      > Then there is the Sumerian Utu preceding the Babylonian Shamash as sun god
      > and the earlier Utu is, none the less, pictured between two mountain
      peaks -
      > sunrise and sunset. In Petersburg there is a steale or something attesting
      > to Utu's journeys through the Underworld like Shamash. And also like Ra /
      > Amun / Amun-Ra and so on in Egypt traveling through the underworld exiting
      > and entering at the mountains, variously, lions? Aker, the twin lions of
      > Egypt, also shown as the Twin Mountain peaks of either Mesopotamia and
      > Armenia.
      >
      >
      >
      > What the heck is going on?
      >
      >
      >
      > Marc Washington
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > From: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of louisdemarest
      > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 7:44 AM
      > To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: ABH Louis - Moses and the Epic of Gilgamesh
      >
      >
      >
      > aj
      >
      > In A. R. George's, The Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic, he briefly discusses
      some
      > commentary comparing the Deluge in the Atra-hasis to the Deluge
      inGilgamesh.
      > In a footnote to that discussion he includes a comment from W.G.Lambert
      > concerning the original name of the mountain that the ark landed on; "it
      is
      > a
      > strong argument for reading the mountain's name in the Babylonian Flood
      > story
      > as Nisir, and not as Nimush." (pg 516) Interestingly, Ararat is another
      > "twin mountain" which is
      > a symbol of divine judgment and law. A acquanitance of mine was born in
      > Armenia
      > and grew up in close proximity to Mt. Ararat.
      > He says Armenianians call the two mountains, sis and masis, with masis
      being
      > the mountain where Noah's Ark is said to rest. In post 46199 Jon cited an
      > interesting web
      > resource which made some relavant observations. I pasted it in, below.
      >
      > The twin-peaked mountain where the city of Noah, Naxuan, was
      > constructed after the flood, was called "mountains of Mashu," by
      > Gilgamesh, but "Mesha" by Noah. ( See Genesis 10:30 )
      >
      > To this very day the local Kurds call the approaches to these peaks
      > "Mashu-r" meaning "resurrection day" or "doomsday." Mesha (msh) the
      > Shemitic root, means to be "drawn out and saved from water." (see
      > James Strong's Concordance of the Bible ). Moses ( or Moshe also
      > spelled msh), was "drawn out" and saved from the Nile waters, so he
      > bore this name. The placename "Mashu" of Gilgamesh - "Mesha" of
      > Genesis, and "Moses" of Genesis, all originally meant the same thing.
      > The present Akkadian understanding of this Shemitic word "Mashu" has
      > been altered in meaning to "twins," but this was merely because of the
      > association with the twin peaks on Mashu mountain itself. Just as the
      > word "gay" has migrated completely in English meaning in only a few
      > decades because of another type of association, the Akkadians altered
      > the meaning because of the story and its telling. Presently Akkadian
      > scholars insist that "Mashu" means "twins," but... "Now you know the
      > rest of the story."
      >
      > The post-flood city of Noah, Mesha-Naxuan, was not built on a "twin"
      > with all respects to modern Akkadian scholars, but on a mountain that
      > had twin peaks, and here we see the exact location of the ancient long
      > lost city of Mesha-Naxuan, on this very mountain that also holds the
      > ark ruins. Hardly a coincidence."
      > http://www.noahsark-naxuan.com/Slide4.htm
      >
      >
      > To this I would add a final point about Mt. Mashu. Mt. Mashu was
      inseperably
      > identified (in the ANE)
      > with the sun-god, Shamash. Mt. Mashu was the location where Shamash rose
      in
      > judgment over mankind.
      > The rising of the sun-god signified the "cutting of fates" and provided
      the
      > theological rational for
      > synchronizing sacrificial rites with the movements of the sun (both rising
      > and setting). The living were judge
      > at daybreak while those sacrificial rites conducted at sunset were most
      > likely connected with one's deceased
      > ancestors and the underworld, as Shamash was thought to judge the dead at
      > night. Thus, Mt. Mashu
      > became a symbol of moral judgment, Divine Law and authority as well as a
      > means of "atonement", rather
      > than just --- the "twin mountains".
      > Like Moses, Mt. Mashu is a symbol of Divine Law and moral judgment. These
      > aren't 'random' associations
      > drawn by accident, or 'imagined', but highly articulated associations and
      > symbolisms.
      >
      > Louis
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "andrej1234au" <andrej1234au@...>
      > To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:10 AM
      > Subject: ABH Louis - Moses and the Epic of Gilgamesh
      >
      >
      > > Louis
      > >
      > > You've certainly identified some interesting similarities between the
      > > Exodus account and the Epic of Gilgamesh. I especially liked this one-
      > > :
      > >
      > > > 5.. In tablet 5 Enkidu and Gilgamesh kill the Bull of Heaven
      > > > and in the Bible Moses destroys the golden bull on Mt. Sinai.
      > >
      > > Getting to the Red Sea crossing - it is interesting that Moses needed
      > > to part said sea to reach the other side, yet, as you have pointed
      > > out, Babylonian Shamash seems to have crossed the Abzu in a boat. Why
      > > the difference? Personally, I don't think it matters a great deal, as
      > > both stories seem to suggest that the waters-in-question were waters
      > > of the underworld, those of Shamash stated explicitly as such, whilst
      > > those of Moses are implied by virtue of the fact that the Egyptian
      > > army met it's fate there.
      > >
      > > Earlier I asked if anyone knew what the name Gilgamesh meant, noting
      > > that this Babylonian name virtually ends in Mose. Much the same can
      > > be said of the name of the Babylonian sun god Shamash - it too
      > > virtually ends in Mose. Am I correct in assuming that he rose from
      > > behind this mount Masu? If so, then what does Masu mean in Sumerian
      > > and/or Akkadian, and how does it relate to the name Shamash?
      > >
      > > If this is the origin of the name Moses, and not some part of some
      > > Egyptian king's name, it certainly shifts influence upon the
      > > Israelite religion from Egypt to Mesopotamia, and may also be
      > > indicative of the late composition of the work (ie. during that
      > > period of the Neo-Babylonian Empire when their seems to have been a
      > > revitalised, almost nationalistic interest in things Babylonian).
      > >
      > > aj
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > CONTACT ABH MODERATORS:
      > > AncientBibleHistory-owner@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > ABH GROUP PAGE:
      > > http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory
      > >
      > > SEARCHABLE PUBLIC ARCHIVES:
      > > http://www.eScribe.com/religion/AncientBibleHistory/
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > CONTACT ABH MODERATORS:
      > AncientBibleHistory-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > ABH GROUP PAGE:
      > http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory
      >
      > SEARCHABLE PUBLIC ARCHIVES:
      > http://www.eScribe.com/religion/AncientBibleHistory/
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      >
      >
      >
      > * Visit your group "AncientBibleHistory
      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory> " on the web.
      >
      > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > AncientBibleHistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      <mailto:AncientBibleHistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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      > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
      > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
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      >
      >
      > _____
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > CONTACT ABH MODERATORS:
      > AncientBibleHistory-owner@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > ABH GROUP PAGE:
      > http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory
      >
      > SEARCHABLE PUBLIC ARCHIVES:
      > http://www.eScribe.com/religion/AncientBibleHistory/
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Marc Washington
      Marc s first comment [MARC1] and response to present message [MARC2] LOUIS D: Marc, ... biblical ... LOUIS D: While there never were any worldwide floods there
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
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        Marc's first comment [MARC1] and response to present message [MARC2]





        LOUIS D:



        Marc,

        > [MARC1] These twin mountains - and the first? I don't think a flood of
        biblical
        > proportions has been found in Armenia and if not, where is the logic or
        > kernel of truth in there being cause to propose a flood that would deposit
        > an ark in an area there was no flood?



        LOUIS D:


        While there never were any worldwide floods there was a "flood" of such
        myths, the *fact* that biblical authors repeatedly, exploited this trope
        demonstrates that they held some conviction that it accurately communicated
        or represented the Divine purpose, judgment and will of Yahweh.



        MARC2: Hi Louis. I find convincing proof in a "Biblical Flood" in the 4
        meters of water-laid clay between (I believe) Ubaid 1 and Ubaid 2 where the
        physical remains of settlements, graves, artworks in Ubaid 2 4 meters above
        were identical to those of Ubaid 1 four meters below. There is more to say
        about the issue, but the preceding to me is the main point. It seems the
        original inhabitants fled the Flood and returned after. My question wasn't
        about the Flood, per se, but a flood in Armenia - especially one at the foot
        of or rising to the heights of the peaks of Mt. Ararrat.



        >MARC1; Then there is the Sumerian Utu preceding the Babylonian Shamash as
        sun god
        > and the earlier Utu is, none the less, pictured between two mountain
        peaks -
        > sunrise and sunset.



        LOUIS: The Sumerian Utu is the semitic deity, Shamash and glyphs of both
        groups
        picture the sun-god rising over twin-mountains, most often with 2 bulls
        (or animals with impressive "horns"; animals on the Zagros mountains.
        Shamash was the god of extispicy in the ancient near east, being
        able to predict the future accurately because he determined it; Shamash "cut
        the fates" of the living at sunrise. This is a theological concept that
        seems to
        be govern the sacrificial system of the Temple.
        The practice of extispicy is strongly condemned by the biblical authors and
        the evidence shows that such practices were common. By all means,
        please tell me --- why did the biblical writers find it so important to
        fashion their
        "God" (and myths) as a living god of a Holy mountain; who reveals his laws
        on
        a Mt. Sinai; Mt.Ararat, Mt Gerizim, and whose Temple is on a mount Zion?

        Many peoples shall go and say, "Come, let's go up to
        the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob;
        and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths."
        For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of
        Yahweh from Jerusalem.
        He will judge between the nations, and will decide
        concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords
        into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks.
        Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall
        they learn war any more.



        MARC2: Yes. Mountains have worked their way into religious motifs. On the
        whole, though, I guess I don't know what the connection with the passage
        above to the post is but thanks for sharing.

        Best regards,

        Marc W.




        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Marc Washington" <best@...>
        To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 11:26 PM
        Subject: ABH Ararrat, Aker, Utu .... Louis - Moses and the Epic of Gilgamesh


        > These twin mountains - and the first? I don't think a flood of biblical
        > proportions has been found in Armenia and if not, where is the logic or
        > kernel of truth in there being cause to propose a flood that would deposit
        > an ark in an area there was no flood? But, those early days before and
        after
        > the flood saw interesting migrations. Samuel Noah Kramer, for instance,
        uses
        > old Armenian tablets or such showing En Merkar, the first king after the
        > flood in Mesopotamia, as originating in Armenia or thereabout in Turkey
        > based on a record of donkey-carried trade. It rather does not seem En
        Merkar
        > and his priests would be the ones to initiate a story of a flood at the
        foot
        > of Ararrat.
        >
        >
        >
        > Then there is the Sumerian Utu preceding the Babylonian Shamash as sun god
        > and the earlier Utu is, none the less, pictured between two mountain
        peaks -
        > sunrise and sunset. In Petersburg there is a steale or something attesting
        > to Utu's journeys through the Underworld like Shamash. And also like Ra /
        > Amun / Amun-Ra and so on in Egypt traveling through the underworld exiting
        > and entering at the mountains, variously, lions? Aker, the twin lions of
        > Egypt, also shown as the Twin Mountain peaks of either Mesopotamia and
        > Armenia.
        >
        >
        >
        > What the heck is going on?
        >
        >
        >
        > Marc Washington
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of louisdemarest
        > Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2005 7:44 AM
        > To: AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: ABH Louis - Moses and the Epic of Gilgamesh
        >
        >
        >
        > aj
        >
        > In A. R. George's, The Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic, he briefly discusses
        some
        > commentary comparing the Deluge in the Atra-hasis to the Deluge
        inGilgamesh.
        > In a footnote to that discussion he includes a comment from W.G.Lambert
        > concerning the original name of the mountain that the ark landed on; "it
        is
        > a
        > strong argument for reading the mountain's name in the Babylonian Flood
        > story
        > as Nisir, and not as Nimush." (pg 516) Interestingly, Ararat is another
        > "twin mountain" which is
        > a symbol of divine judgment and law. A acquanitance of mine was born in
        > Armenia
        > and grew up in close proximity to Mt. Ararat.
        > He says Armenianians call the two mountains, sis and masis, with masis
        being
        > the mountain where Noah's Ark is said to rest. In post 46199 Jon cited an
        > interesting web
        > resource which made some relavant observations. I pasted it in, below.
        >
        > The twin-peaked mountain where the city of Noah, Naxuan, was
        > constructed after the flood, was called "mountains of Mashu," by
        > Gilgamesh, but "Mesha" by Noah. ( See Genesis 10:30 )
        >
        > To this very day the local Kurds call the approaches to these peaks
        > "Mashu-r" meaning "resurrection day" or "doomsday." Mesha (msh) the
        > Shemitic root, means to be "drawn out and saved from water." (see
        > James Strong's Concordance of the Bible ). Moses ( or Moshe also
        > spelled msh), was "drawn out" and saved from the Nile waters, so he
        > bore this name. The placename "Mashu" of Gilgamesh - "Mesha" of
        > Genesis, and "Moses" of Genesis, all originally meant the same thing.
        > The present Akkadian understanding of this Shemitic word "Mashu" has
        > been altered in meaning to "twins," but this was merely because of the
        > association with the twin peaks on Mashu mountain itself. Just as the
        > word "gay" has migrated completely in English meaning in only a few
        > decades because of another type of association, the Akkadians altered
        > the meaning because of the story and its telling. Presently Akkadian
        > scholars insist that "Mashu" means "twins," but... "Now you know the
        > rest of the story."
        >
        > The post-flood city of Noah, Mesha-Naxuan, was not built on a "twin"
        > with all respects to modern Akkadian scholars, but on a mountain that
        > had twin peaks, and here we see the exact location of the ancient long
        > lost city of Mesha-Naxuan, on this very mountain that also holds the
        > ark ruins. Hardly a coincidence."
        > http://www.noahsark-naxuan.com/Slide4.htm
        >
        >
        > To this I would add a final point about Mt. Mashu. Mt. Mashu was
        inseperably
        > identified (in the ANE)
        > with the sun-god, Shamash. Mt. Mashu was the location where Shamash rose
        in
        > judgment over mankind.
        > The rising of the sun-god signified the "cutting of fates" and provided
        the
        > theological rational for
        > synchronizing sacrificial rites with the movements of the sun (both rising
        > and setting). The living were judge
        > at daybreak while those sacrificial rites conducted at sunset were most
        > likely connected with one's deceased
        > ancestors and the underworld, as Shamash was thought to judge the dead at
        > night. Thus, Mt. Mashu
        > became a symbol of moral judgment, Divine Law and authority as well as a
        > means of "atonement", rather
        > than just --- the "twin mountains".
        > Like Moses, Mt. Mashu is a symbol of Divine Law and moral judgment. These
        > aren't 'random' associations
        > drawn by accident, or 'imagined', but highly articulated associations and
        > symbolisms.
        >
        > Louis
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "andrej1234au" <andrej1234au@...>
        > To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 3:10 AM
        > Subject: ABH Louis - Moses and the Epic of Gilgamesh
        >
        >
        > > Louis
        > >
        > > You've certainly identified some interesting similarities between the
        > > Exodus account and the Epic of Gilgamesh. I especially liked this one-
        > > :
        > >
        > > > 5.. In tablet 5 Enkidu and Gilgamesh kill the Bull of Heaven
        > > > and in the Bible Moses destroys the golden bull on Mt. Sinai.
        > >
        > > Getting to the Red Sea crossing - it is interesting that Moses needed
        > > to part said sea to reach the other side, yet, as you have pointed
        > > out, Babylonian Shamash seems to have crossed the Abzu in a boat. Why
        > > the difference? Personally, I don't think it matters a great deal, as
        > > both stories seem to suggest that the waters-in-question were waters
        > > of the underworld, those of Shamash stated explicitly as such, whilst
        > > those of Moses are implied by virtue of the fact that the Egyptian
        > > army met it's fate there.
        > >
        > > Earlier I asked if anyone knew what the name Gilgamesh meant, noting
        > > that this Babylonian name virtually ends in Mose. Much the same can
        > > be said of the name of the Babylonian sun god Shamash - it too
        > > virtually ends in Mose. Am I correct in assuming that he rose from
        > > behind this mount Masu? If so, then what does Masu mean in Sumerian
        > > and/or Akkadian, and how does it relate to the name Shamash?
        > >
        > > If this is the origin of the name Moses, and not some part of some
        > > Egyptian king's name, it certainly shifts influence upon the
        > > Israelite religion from Egypt to Mesopotamia, and may also be
        > > indicative of the late composition of the work (ie. during that
        > > period of the Neo-Babylonian Empire when their seems to have been a
        > > revitalised, almost nationalistic interest in things Babylonian).
        > >
        > > aj
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > CONTACT ABH MODERATORS:
        > > AncientBibleHistory-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > ABH GROUP PAGE:
        > > http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory
        > >
        > > SEARCHABLE PUBLIC ARCHIVES:
        > > http://www.eScribe.com/religion/AncientBibleHistory/
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > CONTACT ABH MODERATORS:
        > AncientBibleHistory-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > ABH GROUP PAGE:
        > http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory
        >
        > SEARCHABLE PUBLIC ARCHIVES:
        > http://www.eScribe.com/religion/AncientBibleHistory/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        >
        >
        > * Visit your group "AncientBibleHistory
        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory> " on the web.
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > AncientBibleHistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        <mailto:AncientBibleHistory-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
        > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > CONTACT ABH MODERATORS:
        > AncientBibleHistory-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > ABH GROUP PAGE:
        > http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientBibleHistory
        >
        > SEARCHABLE PUBLIC ARCHIVES:
        > http://www.eScribe.com/religion/AncientBibleHistory/
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >




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      • tzymosis
        ... such ... trope ... communicated ... the 4 ... where the ... meters above ... more to say ... seems the ... question wasn t ... at the foot ... Dear Marc,
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Washington"
          <best@m...> wrote:
          >
          > While there never were any worldwide floods there was a "flood" of
          such
          > myths, the *fact* that biblical authors repeatedly, exploited this
          trope
          > demonstrates that they held some conviction that it accurately
          communicated
          > or represented the Divine purpose, judgment and will of Yahweh.
          >
          >
          >
          > MARC2: Hi Louis. I find convincing proof in a "Biblical Flood" in
          the 4
          > meters of water-laid clay between (I believe) Ubaid 1 and Ubaid 2
          where the
          > physical remains of settlements, graves, artworks in Ubaid 2 4
          meters above
          > were identical to those of Ubaid 1 four meters below. There is
          more to say
          > about the issue, but the preceding to me is the main point. It
          seems the
          > original inhabitants fled the Flood and returned after. My
          question wasn't
          > about the Flood, per se, but a flood in Armenia - especially one
          at the foot
          > of or rising to the heights of the peaks of Mt. Ararrat.

          Dear Marc,

          My research suggests that the Mesopotamian Flood Myth being utilized
          by Genesis is of the flooding Euphrates river at Shuruppak in Sumer
          (Lower Mesopotamia). The Mesopotamian Noah is at Shuruppak when his
          god warns him of the coming flood (cf. the Epic of Gilgamesh).
          Shuruppak is identified with Tell Fara. Excavations found only _one_
          flood layer some two feet deep. It ended the Jamdat Nasr period. The
          site was reoccupied after this flood, but nearby, not directly over
          the previous site. I thus do not understand the flood to have been
          Ubaid, but the end of Jamdat Nasr. CF. the following url for the
          details
          http://tinyurl.com/bkugf
          Regards, Walter
        • Marc Washington
          Marc s previous comments at [MW1 & 2] and comment to this post at [MW3] From: tzymosis ... of such ... trope ... communicated ... the 4 ... where the ...
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 1, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Marc's previous comments at [MW1 & 2] and comment to this post at [MW3]



            From: tzymosis



            --- In AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Washington"
            <best@m...> wrote:
            >
            > [LOUIS D.] While there never were any worldwide floods there was a "flood"
            of
            such
            > myths, the *fact* that biblical authors repeatedly, exploited this
            trope
            > demonstrates that they held some conviction that it accurately
            communicated
            > or represented the Divine purpose, judgment and will of Yahweh.
            >
            >
            >




            > MARC2: Hi Louis. I find convincing proof in a "Biblical Flood" in
            the 4
            > meters of water-laid clay between (I believe) Ubaid 1 and Ubaid 2
            where the
            > physical remains of settlements, graves, artworks in Ubaid 2 4
            meters above
            > were identical to those of Ubaid 1 four meters below. There is
            more to say
            > about the issue, but the preceding to me is the main point. It
            seems the
            > original inhabitants fled the Flood and returned after. My
            question wasn't
            > about the Flood, per se, but a flood in Armenia - especially one
            at the foot
            > of or rising to the heights of the peaks of Mt. Ararrat.

            [WALTER]




            Dear Marc,

            My research suggests that the Mesopotamian Flood Myth being utilized
            by Genesis is of the flooding Euphrates river at Shuruppak in Sumer
            (Lower Mesopotamia). The Mesopotamian Noah is at Shuruppak when his
            god warns him of the coming flood (cf. the Epic of Gilgamesh).
            Shuruppak is identified with Tell Fara. Excavations found only _one_
            flood layer some two feet deep. It ended the Jamdat Nasr period. The
            site was reoccupied after this flood, but nearby, not directly over
            the previous site. I thus do not understand the flood to have been
            Ubaid, but the end of Jamdat Nasr. CF. the following url for the
            details
            http://tinyurl.com/bkugf
            Regards, Walter



            MARC3: Hi Walter. The book I have taken my information from is:



            Sir Leonard Woolley, Publications of the Joint Expedition to Mesopotamia of
            the British Museum and the University Museum of the University of
            Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, Ur Excavations, vol. IV, The Early Periods,
            (Allen, Lane and Scott, Philadelphia, 1955).



            Woolley noted that while there were periodic floods throughout Mesopotamia
            here and there, earlier and later, that nothing comes close to approximating
            the catastrophe at Ur. He states that Minyan Grey III ware from as far away
            as Hissarlik in N.E. Asia Minor accompanied the people who'd be known as the
            Sumerians and they displaced the Ubaid II population at Ur. From there, they
            moved on to Jemdet Nasr after the Flood. Woolley didn't mention northern
            names but it looks like the En Merkar people who'd establish the first
            kingdom in Babylon after the Flood.



            On page 20 in the book, he discusses the graves and culture in Ubaid I. And
            writes (paraphrase): "Ubaid II and III graves are not stratified however,
            graves between Ubaid I and II are separated by four meters of mud." That he
            is speaking about Ubaid is clear as he writes (this is direct quote): "The
            presence of vessels for food and drink at the foot of the graves shows at
            least that the al'Ubaid people recognized that the soul after death has need
            of provision of some sort . a proof to a certain degree, of religious belief
            at any rate is secured."



            I think we could be talking about the same flood as Ubara-Tutu, the father
            of Atrahasis in Gilgamesh, Dalley among many write, was king of Shurupak;
            Atrahasis having the Sumerian name Ziusudra. Woolley's book clarifies that
            it was the Ubaid I civilization wiped-out by the Flood and supplanted by the
            coming Sumerians. I don't think we are disagreeing with one another.



            All the best,





            Marc W.





















            ...









            .



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