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Angelo - Philistines

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  • A J
    Angelo Was the term seren used by the Philistines themselves, or merely by the writers of the book of Samuel? Is there any non-Biblical evidence which shows
    Message 1 of 35 , Nov 1, 2004
      Angelo

      Was the term 'seren' used by the Philistines
      themselves, or merely by the writers of the book of
      Samuel? Is there any non-Biblical evidence which shows
      that the term 'seren' is of Philistine origin, and not
      Semitic? Not to my knowledge, and I would also
      question the supposed-Semitic origin of the word
      'sar'.

      I am intrigued by the fact that this Hebrew word is
      spelled with a letter which earlier Semitic languages
      don't seem to have had, the letter 'sin'. Where this
      letter came from, and why, I cannot say. But I do
      believe that those words which are derived from 'sara'
      (sin resh heh) were originally spelled with a
      'samekh'-:

      SR - ill-humoured, peevish; rebellious;
      SRB - rebellious; rebels;
      SRH - a turning away, apostasy; cessation, remission;
      SRR - to be refractory, rebellious, to apostatise;

      I can't help but wonder whether words derived from
      this root (SRH) aren't actually describing someone,
      something which has broken a covenant.

      ad spiritum
      Chrysippus

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    • George
      Michael, You write a very concise question: George, I would like to know exactly what your opinion is as to who the people labelled Hittites in the Old
      Message 35 of 35 , Nov 6, 2004
        Michael,

        You write a very concise question:

        "George, I would like to know exactly what your opinion is
        as to who the people labelled "Hittites" in the Old
        Testament refers to. Indo- European speaking Httites that
        had settled in Palestine from the north (any evidence of this?) ?
        Arameans who "Neo-Hittite" in culture? Or Hatti, the non-IE
        autocthonous inhabitants of Hatti land?"

        Here is a clipping from a post of mine on 3/22/2004:

        "I believe a while ago we thoroughly covered this
        material in terms of its relationship to the Anatolians.
        And we concluded that the most recent Neo-Assyrian
        use of the term "Khitti/Khetta" had ZERO to do with
        the Anatolians."

        Jon had written:
        "And yet left *no* Philistine pottery at Beth-Shan? -
        very strange."

        ... I maintain that the biblical use of the term "Philistine"
        is the same as the way Herodotus intended the term - - to mean
        "Palestinian"!

        Jon wrote:
        "Did I ever poste on the Assyrian inscription mentioning
        the inhabitants of Ashdod (Philistim?) deposing their
        king and installing a "Hittite" in his place?.
        This has been a conundrum for historians."

        Yes, I can imagine that it would be.

        This URL tells us:

        http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/filist1.html


        "...in 711 B.C. Sargon II used the name Hittites to
        indicate the inhabitants of the Philistine city
        of Ashdod..."

        http://www.bga.nl/en/articles/filist1.html

        I think we can be VERY certain that Sargon's use of
        the term had ZERO to do with the Anatolians.

        However, I **DO** think that this use of the term
        marks the START of the biblical association of "Khitti"
        and the Philistines."
        [END OF CLIP ONE]


        And here's the original post of mine discussing
        the term "Hittite" and "Philistine":

        This is a repost from 12/20/2003.

        I think it is time we looked at the Gittites/Gath-ites,
        and see that they are the same people as the so-called
        Hittites (Khitti). The simplest way of presenting
        this in a single sentence is that the bible at no
        time uses the term Philistine when it is discussing
        the "Hittites" or "Heth". And that if you look at
        all the variants of these terms, the bible seems to
        switch from "Hittites" to "Philistines, and BACK
        again!

        Regards,

        George

        ABH Khetti = Philistines = "People who Retained their Kings"

        From: George
        Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:17:26

        ----------


        ... I was focusing on the term "Gath", rather
        than "Achish". Does my memory serve me correctly that
        "Ikausa" is found in connection with Ekron?

        In what period is this name found?

        I believe the "Katti" references that I found
        emphasized the HATTIC, or pre-Indo-European,
        nature of the word.

        All this seems to come together in linguistic
        discussions about the Greek term "Ichthys", which
        apparently is a non-Indo-European cognate...
        one that might be spelled:

        'GT-is'..... just like the suffix of Atar-Gatis,
        or like the references to "Ketus" the mythical
        sea creature (i.e., Cetus = Whale or perhaps "King"?).

        Ketti and Khatti, I have been suggesting, carry two
        linguistic loads: "king" and "water". Interestingly
        the "Amalekites of Edom" also have a "duality" of
        implications:

        Amalekites = as a play on the word for king/malek;

        Edom = as a play on the Ugaritic and Sumerian term
        for underground water (Udumu or Iddim).

        Interestingly, the biblical references to the NORTHERN
        range of "Hittite" and "Amalekite" presence seem to
        coincide.....

        AMALEKITES
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        We have Amalekites at En-GETI
        Jos 15:62
        And Nibshan, and the City of Salt, and Engedi;
        six cities with their villages.

        ... linked to ...

        Gen 14:7
        And they returned, and came to Enmishpat, which
        [is] Kadesh, and smote all the country of the
        Amalekites (and also the Amorites) that dwelt
        in Hazezontamar.

        2Ch 20:2
        Then there came some that told Jehoshaphat,
        saying, There cometh a great multitude against
        thee from beyond the sea on this side Syria;
        and, behold, they [be] in Hazazontamar,
        which [is] Engedi.

        And we have Amalekites all the way to Ephraim:
        Jdg 5:14
        From Ephraim were those whose roots were in Amalek.
        After you, Benjamin, with your peoples, From Machir
        rulers came down, And from Zebulun those who bear
        the recruiter's staff.
        [New King James Version]


        HITTITES = Khetti
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

        Hittites/Khetti in the region we call Judah:

        Gen 50:13
        For his sons carried him into the land of Canaan,
        and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah,
        which Abraham bought with the field for a possession
        of a buryingplace of Ephron the Hittite, before Mamre.

        This connects to yet another text that says the
        "Amorites" and the "Hittites" were mixed together:

        Gen 14:13
        And there came one that had escaped, and told
        Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre
        the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner:
        and these [were] confederate with Abram.


        Khetti are in the "mountains" with the Jebusites
        of Jerusalem:

        Num 13:29
        The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and
        the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites,
        dwell in the mountains... [yet another connection
        to the Engedi text... the Amorites and Hittites
        were a "mixed" people]

        [And yet another reference to the "Amorites"
        being "mixed" with Philistines!]
        Jdg 1:34
        And the Amorites forced the children of Dan
        into the mountain: for they would not suffer
        them to come down to the valley..."

        [And yet another reference to the "Amorites"
        being mixed in with the so-called Philistines..]
        1Sa 7:14 [Before David became King!]
        And the cities which the Philistines had taken
        from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron
        06138 even unto Gath [my Joppa?];
        and the coasts thereof did Israel deliver out
        of the hands of the Philistines. And there was
        peace between Israel and the Amorites.

        And then there is the implication that the
        "Khetti" were all over - -

        The New Living Testament describes the land of
        the Khetti in the same way the Assyrians did:

        Jos 1:4
        from the Negev Desert in the south to the
        Lebanon mountains in the north, from the
        Euphrates River on the east to the
        Mediterranean Sea on the west, and
        all the land of the Hittites.'

        ...compared to the New King James version:

        From the Wilderness and this Lebanon as far
        as the great river, the River Euphrates,
        all the land of the Hittites, and to the
        Great Sea toward the going down of the sun,
        shall be your territory.

        This is not inconsistent with the idea that
        the so-called "Philistines" had a garrison in
        Beth-Shen!

        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


        What is interesting to note is that the biblical
        "Hittites" (in other words, those Khetti in Palestine)
        are cited as maintaining their own kings!... and for
        a lengthy period of time! See the chronological
        spread below!

        1Ki 10:29
        And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six
        hundred [shekels] of silver, and an horse for an
        hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the
        Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they
        bring [them] out by their means.

        2Ki 7:6
        For the Lord had made the host of the Syrians to
        hear a noise of chariots, and a noise of horses,
        [even] the noise of a great host: and they said
        one to another, Lo, the king of Israel hath hired
        against us the kings of the Hittites, and the
        kings of the Egyptians, to come upon us.

        The only Palestinians I can think of that might
        have retained their Kings for this span of time
        would, in fact, be the so-called PHILISTINES!

        I return again to the interesting conclusion
        that the term "Hittite" is another term for
        "Philistine"!

        And that this would explain WHY the "Hittites"
        are in the service of David.... he was an associate
        of these "Hittite/Philistines" as we all know!

        Hittites - -
        Officers from, in David's army
        1Sa 26:6; 2Sa 11:3; 23:39
        [END OF SECOND CLIP]



        Michael, to provide you a SHORT answer:

        1) While the name "Philistine" no doubt originates
        out of the mists of time from the Pelest, I don't think
        the bible knew a real Pelest from a hole in the ground.
        The Bible referred to the indigenous people of Palestine
        the same way Herodotus of the 400's BCE referred to them...
        as PALESTINIANS. The word has been translated into
        English as Philistines.

        2) Like the Philistines of Samuel, the "Heth" or "Khatti"
        ranged up into the Highlands of so-called Hebrew territory.
        And they fought a resistance battle against this Saul...
        quite deep into what we would call Israel.

        3) David, a warrior chief of the "Khatti", of "Gittites",
        essentially a PALESTINIAN/PHILISTINE, took his GITTITE/
        KHATTITE contingent and step-by-step pushed back the
        Saul-ite Benjaminites:

        a) He moved from Ziklag, to Hebron, advanced towards
        the Edomite territories (which is referred to as a
        movement of SIMEON into Seir by Chronicles).

        b) Saul's descendants, however, still retained a grip
        on Jerusalem itself (by definition, an outpost of the
        Benjaminites on Benjamin territory), from the relative
        safety of his capitol on the other side of the Jordan.
        One might say that Saul's descendants were "Sons of
        Ammonites" ... for Saul, I would maintain, was of
        Ammonite stock. Benjamin territory appears to be
        an extension of the Ammonites.... on the WEST side
        of Jordan. Exactly on the EAST side of Jordan from
        the Benjaminite "power center" were the Ammonites!

        c) Once one of Saul's descendants died in the Transjordan,
        David, Gittite/Hittite/Palestinian war chief, was able to
        take over Bethlehem and Jerusalem territories. Was this
        where the Philistines USED to be? Or is this the origin
        of the story of the Philistines being in this area?
        David's roots are in the Philistine/Bethlehem territory.
        Is this an authentic tradition?

        We have Saul dying even further NORTH of this area.
        Was he really attacked by Philistines WITHOUT DAVID's
        participation? Or is this a garbling of David's actual
        role in the killing of Saul? It's challenging to twease
        apart what is redaction, and what is original.

        d) David's Khatti/Gittite/Palestinian retainers
        are the future "levites" of the Ark...which tradition,
        in part, says originates from the Philistine camps
        to begin with! The ARK (or one of them) is the size
        and dimensions of a casket. And it would appear to
        have a connection with a "mouse god" per the Samuel
        references to golden mice. This could help place
        the time of Samuel, if there was a legitimate connection
        between mice and Adonis or Adonai.

        This has been a very long post, Michael. Please feel
        free to interrogate me about my "working scenario".

        Regards,

        George
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