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Re: ABH Re: Seven Heavens

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: George To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:22 PM Subject: ABH Re: Seven Heavens
    Message 1 of 4 , Jan 1, 2004
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "George" <historynow2002@...>
      To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:22 PM
      Subject: ABH Re: Seven Heavens


      > Ethel,
      >
      > While I concur that the topic of "Seven Heavens" does
      > not appear in the Hebrew canon, I am under the impression
      > that it is definitely a JEWISH set of traditions that
      > Christian movements derive their interest in the
      > seven heavens as well.
      >
      > So I guess I'll scan around for intertestamental
      > material on the topic.

      From:
      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3025/genday1.htm
      From lowest to highest, the seven heavens are:

      1.. Wilon (curtain). Where clouds, winds, air, and stars exist. It covers
      up the light during the night and disappears every morning. It is the only
      one that is visible.
      2.. Raqi'a (firmament). Where the planets are fastened. Sinners wait here
      for Judgment Day.
      3.. Shehaqim (clouds or grind stones). Where manna is manufactured for the
      pious in the hereafter. The celestial Garden of Eden is in this sphere.
      4.. Zebul (dwelling). Where the Temple exists in the celestial Jerusalem
      and where Michael ministers as the High Priest.
      5.. Ma'on (residence). Where the angels dwell, singing praises to God all
      night long (it's the duty of Israel to sing His praises by day). The
      chariots of the sun and moon are kept here.
      6.. Makhon (emplacement). Where trials, tribulations, snow, and hail
      originate. All of these are supervised by the archangel Metatron. It's also
      where the gigantic Fallen Angels crouch in silent and everlasting despair.
      7.. Araboth (plains). Here sits the Throne of God, surrounded by the
      seraphim, the ofanim, the holy Hayyot, and the ministering angels. The
      chariot seen by Ezekiel is kept here. This is also where the dew waits ...
      the dew which God will use to revive the dead on resurrection day. Here also
      reside the souls and spirits of unborn generations. [That we had a premortal
      existence is not a common theme in Christianity, apparently lost in one
      translation or another.]
      During the Christian period, the seven heavens were reduced to two (or at
      most, three). It doesn't take much study of the Bible to notice that three
      and seven are used quite often.

      Seven Earths
      God created seven earths, corresponding to the seven heavens. Each is
      separated from the next by five layers: the abyss, the Tohu, the Bohu, a
      sea, and waters. [The sea and waters are separate elements as they are in
      Babylonian mythology, with Apsu and Tiamat. One is sweet water, the other is
      salty.]

      The seven earths, from lowest to highest, are:

      1.. Erez (earth). The lowest earth.
      2.. Adamah (earth). The scene of God's magnificence. What it's doing way
      down here at the next-to-lowest earth is not explained.
      3.. Arka (earth). Here the souls of the wicked are guarded by the Angels
      of Destruction. In other words, this is where Hell is. The seven divisions
      of Hell were created on the second day (see the next parchment in this
      series).
      4.. Harabah (parched land). The place of the desert wadi (a dry
      streambed).
      5.. Yabbashah (dry land). Here reside the rivers and springs.
      6.. Tebel (world). Where 365 species of strange, half-human beings live.
      Some have human heads on the body of a lion, a serpent, or an ox. Some have
      animal heads on a human body. Some double-persons have two heads, which
      quarrel with each other when eating or drinking (each claiming the largest
      portion). [These beings sound kinda like a description of the reliefs,
      drawings, and paintings that the Hebrews must have seen in other cultures
      who either welcomed or conquered them.]
      7.. Heled (world). Our earth.
      Check the Quran also.

      Jack
    • David H. Sandlin
      It s like most things in Judaism, it belonged to others first. In particular Zoroaster. The Muslims also believe in 7 heavens. Try these on for size.
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 1, 2004
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        It's like most things in Judaism, it belonged to others first. In particular
        Zoroaster. The Muslims also believe in 7 heavens.

        Try these on for size.

        http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-12.htm
        http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-13.htm
        http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-14.htm

        I would read all 3 to fully grasp the concept.

        I have more somewhere that is more on the "mundane level" of your
        question (rather than esoteric or allegorical) on this but can't find it right
        now. Until one understands the level of esoteric or allegorical in the
        Bible, OT & NT, the more one understands what is behind it.

        I will get back with you on Hitler & George on his "last comments" to me
        & about me when I have more time.

        DS


        On 1 Jan 2004 at 2:37, Jack Kilmon wrote:

        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "George" <historynow2002@...>
        > To: <AncientBibleHistory@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:22 PM
        > Subject: ABH Re: Seven Heavens
        >
        >
        > > Ethel,
        > >
        > > While I concur that the topic of "Seven Heavens" does
        > > not appear in the Hebrew canon, I am under the impression
        > > that it is definitely a JEWISH set of traditions that
        > > Christian movements derive their interest in the
        > > seven heavens as well.
        > >
        > > So I guess I'll scan around for intertestamental
        > > material on the topic.
        >
        > From:
        > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3025/genday1.htm
        > From lowest to highest, the seven heavens are:
        >
        > 1.. Wilon (curtain). Where clouds, winds, air, and stars exist. It
        > covers
        > up the light during the night and disappears every morning. It is the
        > only one that is visible.
        > 2.. Raqi'a (firmament). Where the planets are fastened. Sinners wait
        > here
        > for Judgment Day.
        > 3.. Shehaqim (clouds or grind stones). Where manna is manufactured
        > for the
        > pious in the hereafter. The celestial Garden of Eden is in this
        > sphere.
        > 4.. Zebul (dwelling). Where the Temple exists in the celestial
        > Jerusalem
        > and where Michael ministers as the High Priest.
        > 5.. Ma'on (residence). Where the angels dwell, singing praises to
        > God all
        > night long (it's the duty of Israel to sing His praises by day). The
        > chariots of the sun and moon are kept here.
        > 6.. Makhon (emplacement). Where trials, tribulations, snow, and hail
        > originate. All of these are supervised by the archangel Metatron. It's
        > also where the gigantic Fallen Angels crouch in silent and everlasting
        > despair.
        > 7.. Araboth (plains). Here sits the Throne of God, surrounded by the
        > seraphim, the ofanim, the holy Hayyot, and the ministering angels. The
        > chariot seen by Ezekiel is kept here. This is also where the dew waits
        > ... the dew which God will use to revive the dead on resurrection day.
        > Here also reside the souls and spirits of unborn generations. [That we
        > had a premortal existence is not a common theme in Christianity,
        > apparently lost in one translation or another.] During the Christian
        > period, the seven heavens were reduced to two (or at most, three). It
        > doesn't take much study of the Bible to notice that three and seven
        > are used quite often.
        >
        > Seven Earths
        > God created seven earths, corresponding to the seven heavens. Each is
        > separated from the next by five layers: the abyss, the Tohu, the Bohu,
        > a sea, and waters. [The sea and waters are separate elements as they
        > are in Babylonian mythology, with Apsu and Tiamat. One is sweet water,
        > the other is salty.]
        >
        > The seven earths, from lowest to highest, are:
        >
        > 1.. Erez (earth). The lowest earth.
        > 2.. Adamah (earth). The scene of God's magnificence. What it's doing
        > way
        > down here at the next-to-lowest earth is not explained.
        > 3.. Arka (earth). Here the souls of the wicked are guarded by the
        > Angels
        > of Destruction. In other words, this is where Hell is. The seven
        > divisions of Hell were created on the second day (see the next
        > parchment in this series).
        > 4.. Harabah (parched land). The place of the desert wadi (a dry
        > streambed).
        > 5.. Yabbashah (dry land). Here reside the rivers and springs.
        > 6.. Tebel (world). Where 365 species of strange, half-human beings
        > live.
        > Some have human heads on the body of a lion, a serpent, or an ox. Some
        > have animal heads on a human body. Some double-persons have two heads,
        > which quarrel with each other when eating or drinking (each claiming
        > the largest portion). [These beings sound kinda like a description of
        > the reliefs, drawings, and paintings that the Hebrews must have seen
        > in other cultures who either welcomed or conquered them.]
        > 7.. Heled (world). Our earth.
        > Check the Quran also.
        >
        > Jack
        >
        >
        > CONTACT ABH MODERATORS:
        > AncientBibleHistory-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
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        > http://www.angelfire.com/or3/ancientbiblehistory/
        >
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        >
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        >
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        >
      • George
        David, ... They are ok. And certainly I very much agree that the concept of 7 Heavens is a borrowing from Persian mythology. But I m still looking for a
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 1, 2004
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          David,

          I reviewed these URL's:

          > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-12.htm
          > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-13.htm
          > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/sd/sd2-2-14.htm
          >

          They are ok. And certainly I very much agree that the
          concept of "7 Heavens" is a borrowing from Persian
          mythology. But I'm still looking for a more concise
          presentation of the PERSIAN notion of "seven heavens".

          If you bump into one, please let me know.

          Now, as regards "Hitler", I believe moderator Ethel
          is the one to trade discussions with. She's a big
          supporter of having his writings be more available
          to the public. She thinks it is important for more
          people to understand his views.... in the same way
          that she thinks more Christians and Jews should
          understand the Quran as well.

          Regards,

          George
        • Holly Aldahir
          ... Jack: The seven heavens are tibaqan (Q 70:15) which means they coincide or are congruent. It also means they are covered up or unseen (6 of the 7 are
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 1, 2004
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            --- Jack Kilmon wrote:

            > Check the Quran also.

            Jack:
            The seven heavens are tibaqan (Q 70:15) which means
            they coincide or are congruent. It also means they are
            covered up or unseen (6 of the 7 are unseen or
            invisible to us). The 7 heavens are described in Surah
            Rahman in the Quran and they are
            1. the earth's heaven (sama'tul dunya) which contains
            the earth and everthing visible in the sky.
            2. The following 6 heavens are regarded as the unseen
            and they are in order: hell, 4 paradises and God's
            heaven which contain the arsh or throne and is called
            God's heaven.
            So, according to the Quran, hell is above the earth's
            heaven but below the 4 paradises (janat) and all are
            beneath the throne. Yes, you really have to go through
            hell to get to heaven (paradise) :-)!
            Hope this Helps
            Holly
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