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Re: ABH The OT a Hasmonean Bible ?

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  • Peter Kebbell
    Hi Walter ... Egypt ... us ... I m basing this on Graham Hancock s narrative ( The Sign and the Seal ) - his view is based in part on the information of Achim
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 1, 2001
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      Hi Walter

      > I don't know where you are getting the notion that the temple was built by
      > 650 BCE. There is nothing in the papyri stating exactly when it was built.
      > All that is said is that it was in existence before Cambyses conquered
      Egypt
      > (ca. 525 BCE). That is'nt proof it was built 650 BCE or after Gedaliah's
      > murder following the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians. So, neither of
      us
      > can make an assertion on just when it was or wasn't built. Soooo, why did
      > you choose 650 BCE for its creation (just curiosity) ?

      I'm basing this on Graham Hancock's narrative ("The Sign and the Seal") -
      his view is based in part on the information of Achim Krekeler, the
      archaeologist in charge of the dig in the early 1990s.

      > It proves nothing, if the Jews who fled with Jeremiah
      > wanted to erect a temple in Syene and offer animal sacrifices at it, they
      > would (according to Jeremiah, it didn't bother them to let their wives
      > sacrifice to the Queen of heaven, which is suppossedly banned in the
      Torah,
      > so why would they "give a fig" about Torah bans ?).

      So, the next question must be whether there is any evidence of animal
      sacrifice at Jerusalem after Jeremiah's reign. After all, in reality,
      religious practice is always much more based on tradition than on any
      writings - if, as you suggest, the Elephantine temple was not built until a
      much later date, then it would seem likely that they would follow the
      traditions of the Jerusalem based Jews at the time they moved - regardless
      of any written material.

      > The Jews stationed at
      > Elephantine were mercenaries, whose duty it was to protect Egypt's border
      > from Nubian attacks. The Jews who fled to Egypt after Gedaliah's murder,
      > were remnants of the ARMY that had eluded Nebuchadrezzar. So, it makes
      sense
      > to me, that the only job available on Pharoah's payroll, that the might
      > qualify for, is mercenary duty at the frontiers, either Tahpanhes with the
      > Greek mercenaries or Elephantine, hence the reason for my suggesting the
      > temple was built after 587 BCE.

      Please could you cite the evidence for the assertion that they were
      mercenaries? By the nature of mercenaries, they tend to move location fairly
      regularly, and it therefore seems an odd idea to go to the extent of
      building a temple which seems to be comparable with the one in Jerusalem if
      they didn't see themselves as stationed there for some considerable time.
      Your theory is based in an assumption that the Jews on Elephantine were
      those who had fled after the Babylonian victory, but it is quite possible
      that there were Jews there before this time. I would suggest that it is
      probable that they fled during the reign of Manesseh, who seems to have
      spent some considerable time persecuting monotheistic Jews. It also seems
      far more likely that a group of highly religious Jews rather than a group of
      exiled mercenaries should take the time to build a copy of the temple at
      Jerusalem.

      > Happy New Year and New 21st century to everyone !

      And to you

      Peter
    • Kim
      ... From: Walter Mattfeld This was to Peter, but I just wanted add a little something. ... All that is said is that it was in
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 2, 2001
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Walter Mattfeld" <mattfeld@...>


        This was to Peter, but I just wanted add a little something.

        FROM WALTER:

        > I don't know where you are getting the notion that the temple was built by
        > 650 BCE. There is nothing in the papyri stating exactly when it was built.
        All that is said is that it was in existence before Cambyses conquered Egypt
        > (ca. 525 BCE). That is'nt proof it was built 650 BCE or after Gedaliah's
        > murder following the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians. So, neither of
        us
        > can make an assertion on just when it was or wasn't built. Soooo, why did
        > you choose 650 BCE for its creation (just curiosity) ?
        >

        KIM NOW:

        I wonder if the numbers on that date are turned around and should read 605
        BC. That is the date of the first Babylonian captivity.. How this pertains
        is that some historians think that because there were pockets of Jews along
        the Nile during this time period and that they would have heard rumors of
        the threats against the Jews of Canaan, that these Nile Jews were all ready
        making plans to erect a temple in the event that the Jerusalem temple was
        lost. One idea that bears this out is that there appears to be some rivalry
        between the two factions and the Nile Jews appear to believe they have as
        much right to a temple as the others. Just a thought.


        >> PETER SAD
        .
        >>However, a large part of
        > > Falasha Judaism is the practice of animal sacrifice, which was >>clearly
        > > outlawed prior to the Babylonian exile.


        > NOW WALTER
        > What is your authority that animal sacrifice was outlawed ? Are you
        > referring to the so-called re-discovery of the Torah in Josiah's reign ?

        KIM NOW:

        One thing to consider is that not only did the Jews attempt to correct and
        revive their practices of the Mosaic ceremonial laws, but the Persians
        insisted upon it.

        When hostile Egyptians destroyed this Elephantine temple during the absence
        of the Persian satrap Arsames in 410 BC, the Nile Jews attempted to obtain
        permission to rebuild the temple. It was given to them on the condition
        that no bloody (or unclean) sacrifices were to be offered in it.

        One of the papyrus found at Elephantine states that a decree was issued by
        Darius 11 in 419 BC that ordered the Jews to celebrate their Passover feast
        according to the Mosaic ceremonial law.

        If nothing else, it is interesting to note that the Persian authorities were
        concerned with the religious matters of their subject nations.



        WALTER NOW:

        As
        > you may well know, there was to be only one temple, at Jerusalem, yet a
        > temple was erected by Onias with Ptolemaic approval in the 2nd century
        BCE.
        > If a Jewish priest can erect a temple after it is stated only the
        > Jerusalem one is valid, what does this do to your theory about the ban on
        > animal sacrifices


        KIM NOW:

        I know that this is Peter's discussion with you...but I'll just get in the
        way for a second. In both instances, the sacrifice issue and the temple
        building issue were not rooted in religious reasoning but in political
        reasoning.

        And we all know how well religion and politics go together :)


        Kim -1
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