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RE: [AnTirYAC] Re: 12th Night Discussion Comments & Crass Commercialism

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  • Evenon de Remy
    Ursula, I totally agree about the round robin. Almost every tourney I have done has been round robin (barring 1/2 ) because there were just too many kids or
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 27, 2010
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      Ursula,

       

      I totally agree about the round robin.   Almost every tourney I have done has been round robin (barring 1/2 ) because there were just too many kids or we were pressed for time.

       

      Cheers

      -= Evenon

      AKA:Daði

       

      From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ursula_f0wler
      Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 10:45 AM
      To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: 12th Night Discussion Comments & Crass Commercialism

       

       

      Greetings all,

      I was sorry to miss 12th night, but until my husband is done with his degree overnight out of town events are a little much for us to manage right now.

      I did want to talk about a couple of points on the round table, mostly related to sword construction, and maybe another thought or two.

      I have made both skin on and skin off rattan YAC swords. I have not had any breaking problems with the skin off swords. Thora and Gianni, because Gianni always borrows Thora's swords, used the skin off swords for a year. They are both Dragon class teens, Thora is 5'11" and Gianni is 6'1", so they are at the big end of YAC fighters. They didn't break the skin off swords. I had to shave 2 of the swords, because the rattan sent to me was too thick. I think that because of the irregularity of rattan, it would be unwise to disqualify shaved rattan from YAC, because some times the suppliers will send oversized rattan, and it's too expensive to just go get more if too big of rattan was shipped. That said I think we should recommend skin on rattan for sword construction, but allow shaving it to size.

      Just another couple questions about shaved rattan swords. Were the swords that had breaking problems made with a lengthwise wrap of strapping tape? I've seen some rather "experimental" swords where some of the basic taping didn't happen. When the skin is removed, that layer of strapping tape becomes rather important to the swords strength. To those folks who had a lot of problems with breakage of the skin off rattan, was it purchased as peeled rattan. Both my skin off swords I had to spoke shave down to size. Maybe the stuff shipped skin off starts out as "seconds" with some problems, so they peel it to make it sellable. I don't know if that is the case, but something of that sort is likely, and could explain problems with the skin off rattan.

      Personally I'd like to see pipe foam and pool noodles banned in the rules, and the foam standard raised from 3/8th inch close celled foam to 1/2 inch of high density closed cell foam. The problem with 3/8th inch foam is when the diameter for the rattan and the single wrap of 3/8th inch foam is all secured and taped, the end of the sword will be slightly less than 2 inches in diameter. Which then requires one build a thrusting tip that bulges out, which makes the thrusting tip more vulnerable to breakage. Every time I go to a YAC tourney, and there are swords with bulbous thrusting tips, those are the tips that tend to break off. I use the same piece of 1/2 inch high density closed cell foam from handle to tip, and I have only had one broken thrusting tip on a year old sword, at Sport of Kings. The foam was heading toward a redo anyway, so I wasn't unhappy about it, because it just showed me that I must be doing something right.

      When I foam a sword, I use 1/2 inch HD CC foam which I cut to size then abut the edges and tape closed, then the foam tube is slipped on the sword core. The tube is made 2' longer then the core, and has the hole at top filled with more foam, then an X of strapping tape that goes from handle over the tip end and back down handle, then I put an extra X of strapping tape over the end from mid blade back to mid blade. My thrusting tips have performed well, with only one case of breakage, and they have always passed inspection. My sword building instructions are published on this list in full, back in late July or August '09.

      For foaming the edge of the shields, I use the same 1/2"HD CC as I use for the blades. I drill a row of lacing holes, then cut strips of foam
      wide enough to wrap/fold around the edges, then I use a thin waxed hemp cord to lace the foam down. Once the first lacing is done, I tape the foam down, then put a fabric cover over the shield(OK, I'm a woman with textile skills, not metal or wood working skills). Then with my tailor's awl I work holes into the fabric, and lace it again with a thicker hemp twine to hold the fabric cover in place. It is a bit of a struggle to get the foam to stay put with the first lacing, but not so bad once that part is done. The shield has performed well, except I need to move the arm straps lower.

      My barony, Three Mountains doesn't do a YAC only champion, we have a youth champion, and YAC is one of the parts to winning that title, but one could do it without fighting, because archery, A&S, bardic, service, and games are all options to compete for the title, and one doesn't have to do all the options.

      With the teens who are graduating from YAC, are we talking about teens who practice with adult rattan, but aren't yet fighting in adult tourneys, or are we talking about teens who fight mostly adult, but jump back to YAC when there happens to be a YAC tourney. Locally we haven't had a problem with either. Once when the Youth Champion tourney was happening and one teen who was competing was fighting adult combat usually, but to compete for Youth Champion the only combat option is YAC. Because he was fighting 2 experienced YAC fighters(Thora and Gianni) we let it slide and the normally adult combatant did YAC. With the teens who are transitioning to adult combat, I think it is important for them to train on adult rattan so they don't blow a shoulder first thing. I don't want to mess with transitioning teens getting their adult rattan training. Locally when we have tourneys with teens who are transitioning, we will have knights and marshals talk to them about the difference in fighting styles with the lighter weapons, and remind them to make it fun for the smaller kids.

      In Summer our YAC practices happen the same time as Monday night fight practice, so knights and other experienced fighters can work with the youths, the older YAC combatants will go year round. But our YAC marshal is looking at doing Saturday practices for spring, because his kids are smaller, and shouldn't be up after 9 on a school night. Unfortunately Stromgard the other power barony in the region, hasn't as developed a YAC program, so their Thursday night fighter practice doesn't have a YAC marshal, or at least didn't last summer. I live equal distant between the two practices, so in theory I could take Thora to both, but lack of a Stromgard YAC marshal is a stumbling point.

      Another thing that wasn't discussed, but is something I feel strongly about is when a YAC tourney is really small, like 5 or less combatants, I would like to see an effort made to be sure every youth gets a chance to fight every other youth in the tourney. I have on a couple of occasions drove long distances to be sure my daughter was at the tourney, often bringing the only legal swords for all combatants, only to have her first bout with someone who wins, and he goes on, and Thora is done. In my efforts to support YAC in my region, I have spent lots of gas for one bout of combat on a couple of occasions. Once the tourney goes over 5 kids then every one gets at least a couple of bouts with different combatants, and it doesn't feel like such a waste of time. Having a kid go to all that trouble just to suit up for one or two bouts with only one other combatant is actually kind of frustrating for the youths, and their parents. If there are only 2 youths then a best of 5, 7, or 9 can make the tourney feel like it's worth the effort to get there. Also the more time we spend on the eric, the better to promote the program with.

      Ok, those are a few of my thoughts, which are mine... ;-)

      Ursula

      --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, "JordanB" <boshorde@...> wrote:

      >
      > Greetings To All,
      >
      > Surprise, surprise!
      >
      > I am still alive and well; and working with the YAC program up here in
      Aquaterra. As always, my plans to keep current on this group were thwarted by certain Gods of Mischief. At least that is my story and I am sticking with it.
      >
      > I was glad to hear of the meeting at 12th Night but sad that I was not
      able to attend. I would have liked to meet everyone in person and there were topics brought up that definitely interested me. However, before I spin off into one my rambling emails, I would like to slip in one official plug.
      >
      > It is a New Year and therefore time once again for Ursulmus; Aquaterra's
      Public Demo Event. Now, although this Event has "something for everyone", I would like to mention we are having YAC activities both days. Plus there will be an area set up to introduce new people to this fun game we play. If you happen to make the trek, please stop by and extend your greetings.
      >
      > But enough commercialism,
      >
      > Concerning the discussion of Baronial involvement with the YAC Program. I
      believe the first step in achieving this goal is to try and unify all the programs across the kingdom and solidify the wonderful start we have going.
      >
      > Does a list exist regarding which Baronies, Shires, Principalities currently
      have programs? What about creating an organizational chart with contact information, from branch to kingdom level?
      >
      > Currently the program in Aquaterra has kids in all three divisions and our
      practice is held in conjunction with the Heavy fighters so we can utilize their knowledge and expertise to work with the kids. So far this has been working out great.
      >
      > We have had a YAC Champion, decided by combat, for the last three years.
      Due to the responsibilities expected of the Champion by the Barony, it was decided that the Official Champion would be from the Dragon Division. If there are enough youths to enter from the other divisions, then they are recognized in court for their success. This was decided by our Baron and Baroness and I have yet to hear any real negative feedback concerning it. Of course, just because I do not hear anything does not mean people are not critical.
      >
      > We have also put into place the rule regarding youths fighting both in the
      YAC and as an adult. We encourage the newly graduated fighters to help with the YAC program but they are not allowed to participate in any official YAC activity. We have plans to honor two of our youths who are moving up to Heavy Fighting at Ursulmus this year. This is a first time for this ceremony and I would like to see it done for movement through all divisions, not just the move to Heavy.
      >
      > I understand the concern about the foam insulation used on the swords and
      we have been experimenting with a number of different types of foam, including yoga mat. The trick is to wrap it around the rattan three times to ensure the proper thickness. Although what are the suggestions for wrapping the edges of shields? The ¾" pipe insulation wraps around a shield edge perfectly and I have not found anything that has worked any better.
      >
      > I currently buy and use rattan that still has the skin on it, so I have
      not experienced the problems you are talking about. However, this is an important issue. I believe there are sites on line that currently offer shaved rattan for youth programs and I believe one of the Kingdom vendors, Burnt Village Wares is currently selling our size rattan that has been shaved. I know they sell the shaved heavy sticks but I believe they started carrying the shaved ¾ stuff. So, if we are going to make this a general rule we need to inform the populace. Burnt Village will be at Ursulmus, so I can confirm their wares but I do not feel I should approach them with this information until an official ruling has been made.
      >
      > On the subject of thrusting tips, I am not sure what the tool dip process
      entales. However, our solution is to use very thin nylon, like from strapping tie downs and create an "X" pattern over the top of the thrusting tip, with the pieces of nylon running about a third of the way down the shaft of the sword. The nylon is then covered by the foam padding that covers the sword shaft. This keeps the tips from breaking off, yet still allows them to be pliable enough to pass inspection. Hmm, I do not know if that is the greatest of descriptions, but maybe I can set up some pictures of the process and place them on the yahoo web site.
      >
      > I have other discussion items to propose, including introducing different
      weapons and standardizing the ones we currently use, re-introducing the YAC favor, maybe designing a slightly different version for each division and various administrative issues to make our jobs easier. However, as usual this has dragged on too long and I am running out of time. Please let me know your thoughts and comments about any or all items I brought up
      >
      > I will try to post again shortly after Ursulmus and look forward to either
      seeing or hearing from you all.
      >
      >
      > IS
      > Jolgeirr
      > YAC Warden, Barony of Aquaterra
      >

    • ursula_f0wler
      I don t worry about a round robin if there are enough combatants that every one gets a few bouts with different people, but we have had some really small YAC
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 27, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        I don't worry about a round robin if there are enough combatants that every one gets a few bouts with different people, but we have had some really small YAC tourneys in this neck of the woods. Often it's just Thora and Gianni, or Thora, Gianni and one more.

        At Sport of Kings last year we had about 20 combatants, and ran 2 erics in 2 groups. If we always had enough combatants like that, we would have plenty of tourney style options.

        If there was to be a rule or recommendation about getting all combatants to fight each other, I would hope it was mostly a build the program, and very small tourney rule, and something that the program could be built up enough to not need eventually.

        YIS

        Ursula

        --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, "Evenon de Remy" <dan@...> wrote:
        >
        > Ursula,
        >
        >
        >
        > I totally agree about the round robin. Almost every tourney I have done
        > has been round robin (barring 1/2 ) because there were just too many kids or
        > we were pressed for time.
        >
        >
        >
        > Cheers
        >
        > -= Evenon
        >
        > AKA:Daði
        >
        >
        >
        > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of ursula_f0wler
        > Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 10:45 AM
        > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: 12th Night Discussion Comments & Crass Commercialism
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Greetings all,
        >
        > I was sorry to miss 12th night, but until my husband is done with his degree
        > overnight out of town events are a little much for us to manage right now.
        >
        > I did want to talk about a couple of points on the round table, mostly
        > related to sword construction, and maybe another thought or two.
        >
        > I have made both skin on and skin off rattan YAC swords. I have not had any
        > breaking problems with the skin off swords. Thora and Gianni, because Gianni
        > always borrows Thora's swords, used the skin off swords for a year. They are
        > both Dragon class teens, Thora is 5'11" and Gianni is 6'1", so they are at
        > the big end of YAC fighters. They didn't break the skin off swords. I had to
        > shave 2 of the swords, because the rattan sent to me was too thick. I think
        > that because of the irregularity of rattan, it would be unwise to disqualify
        > shaved rattan from YAC, because some times the suppliers will send oversized
        > rattan, and it's too expensive to just go get more if too big of rattan was
        > shipped. That said I think we should recommend skin on rattan for sword
        > construction, but allow shaving it to size.
        >
        > Just another couple questions about shaved rattan swords. Were the swords
        > that had breaking problems made with a lengthwise wrap of strapping tape?
        > I've seen some rather "experimental" swords where some of the basic taping
        > didn't happen. When the skin is removed, that layer of strapping tape
        > becomes rather important to the swords strength. To those folks who had a
        > lot of problems with breakage of the skin off rattan, was it purchased as
        > peeled rattan. Both my skin off swords I had to spoke shave down to size.
        > Maybe the stuff shipped skin off starts out as "seconds" with some problems,
        > so they peel it to make it sellable. I don't know if that is the case, but
        > something of that sort is likely, and could explain problems with the skin
        > off rattan.
        >
        > Personally I'd like to see pipe foam and pool noodles banned in the rules,
        > and the foam standard raised from 3/8th inch close celled foam to 1/2 inch
        > of high density closed cell foam. The problem with 3/8th inch foam is when
        > the diameter for the rattan and the single wrap of 3/8th inch foam is all
        > secured and taped, the end of the sword will be slightly less than 2 inches
        > in diameter. Which then requires one build a thrusting tip that bulges out,
        > which makes the thrusting tip more vulnerable to breakage. Every time I go
        > to a YAC tourney, and there are swords with bulbous thrusting tips, those
        > are the tips that tend to break off. I use the same piece of 1/2 inch high
        > density closed cell foam from handle to tip, and I have only had one broken
        > thrusting tip on a year old sword, at Sport of Kings. The foam was heading
        > toward a redo anyway, so I wasn't unhappy about it, because it just showed
        > me that I must be doing something right.
        >
        > When I foam a sword, I use 1/2 inch HD CC foam which I cut to size then abut
        > the edges and tape closed, then the foam tube is slipped on the sword core.
        > The tube is made 2' longer then the core, and has the hole at top filled
        > with more foam, then an X of strapping tape that goes from handle over the
        > tip end and back down handle, then I put an extra X of strapping tape over
        > the end from mid blade back to mid blade. My thrusting tips have performed
        > well, with only one case of breakage, and they have always passed
        > inspection. My sword building instructions are published on this list in
        > full, back in late July or August '09.
        >
        > For foaming the edge of the shields, I use the same 1/2"HD CC as I use for
        > the blades. I drill a row of lacing holes, then cut strips of foam
        > wide enough to wrap/fold around the edges, then I use a thin waxed hemp cord
        > to lace the foam down. Once the first lacing is done, I tape the foam down,
        > then put a fabric cover over the shield(OK, I'm a woman with textile skills,
        > not metal or wood working skills). Then with my tailor's awl I work holes
        > into the fabric, and lace it again with a thicker hemp twine to hold the
        > fabric cover in place. It is a bit of a struggle to get the foam to stay put
        > with the first lacing, but not so bad once that part is done. The shield has
        > performed well, except I need to move the arm straps lower.
        >
        > My barony, Three Mountains doesn't do a YAC only champion, we have a youth
        > champion, and YAC is one of the parts to winning that title, but one could
        > do it without fighting, because archery, A&S, bardic, service, and games are
        > all options to compete for the title, and one doesn't have to do all the
        > options.
        >
        > With the teens who are graduating from YAC, are we talking about teens who
        > practice with adult rattan, but aren't yet fighting in adult tourneys, or
        > are we talking about teens who fight mostly adult, but jump back to YAC when
        > there happens to be a YAC tourney. Locally we haven't had a problem with
        > either. Once when the Youth Champion tourney was happening and one teen who
        > was competing was fighting adult combat usually, but to compete for Youth
        > Champion the only combat option is YAC. Because he was fighting 2
        > experienced YAC fighters(Thora and Gianni) we let it slide and the normally
        > adult combatant did YAC. With the teens who are transitioning to adult
        > combat, I think it is important for them to train on adult rattan so they
        > don't blow a shoulder first thing. I don't want to mess with transitioning
        > teens getting their adult rattan training. Locally when we have tourneys
        > with teens who are transitioning, we will have knights and marshals talk to
        > them about the difference in fighting styles with the lighter weapons, and
        > remind them to make it fun for the smaller kids.
        >
        > In Summer our YAC practices happen the same time as Monday night fight
        > practice, so knights and other experienced fighters can work with the
        > youths, the older YAC combatants will go year round. But our YAC marshal is
        > looking at doing Saturday practices for spring, because his kids are
        > smaller, and shouldn't be up after 9 on a school night. Unfortunately
        > Stromgard the other power barony in the region, hasn't as developed a YAC
        > program, so their Thursday night fighter practice doesn't have a YAC
        > marshal, or at least didn't last summer. I live equal distant between the
        > two practices, so in theory I could take Thora to both, but lack of a
        > Stromgard YAC marshal is a stumbling point.
        >
        > Another thing that wasn't discussed, but is something I feel strongly about
        > is when a YAC tourney is really small, like 5 or less combatants, I would
        > like to see an effort made to be sure every youth gets a chance to fight
        > every other youth in the tourney. I have on a couple of occasions drove long
        > distances to be sure my daughter was at the tourney, often bringing the only
        > legal swords for all combatants, only to have her first bout with someone
        > who wins, and he goes on, and Thora is done. In my efforts to support YAC in
        > my region, I have spent lots of gas for one bout of combat on a couple of
        > occasions. Once the tourney goes over 5 kids then every one gets at least a
        > couple of bouts with different combatants, and it doesn't feel like such a
        > waste of time. Having a kid go to all that trouble just to suit up for one
        > or two bouts with only one other combatant is actually kind of frustrating
        > for the youths, and their parents. If there are only 2 youths then a best of
        > 5, 7, or 9 can make the tourney feel like it's worth the effort to get
        > there. Also the more time we spend on the eric, the better to promote the
        > program with.
        >
        > Ok, those are a few of my thoughts, which are mine... ;-)
        >
        > Ursula
        >
        > --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AnTirYAC%40yahoogroups.com> ,
        > "JordanB" <boshorde@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Greetings To All,
        > >
        > > Surprise, surprise!
        > >
        > > I am still alive and well; and working with the YAC program up here in
        > Aquaterra. As always, my plans to keep current on this group were thwarted
        > by certain Gods of Mischief. At least that is my story and I am sticking
        > with it.
        > >
        > > I was glad to hear of the meeting at 12th Night but sad that I was not
        > able to attend. I would have liked to meet everyone in person and there were
        > topics brought up that definitely interested me. However, before I spin off
        > into one my rambling emails, I would like to slip in one official plug.
        > >
        > > It is a New Year and therefore time once again for Ursulmus; Aquaterra's
        > Public Demo Event. Now, although this Event has "something for everyone", I
        > would like to mention we are having YAC activities both days. Plus there
        > will be an area set up to introduce new people to this fun game we play. If
        > you happen to make the trek, please stop by and extend your greetings.
        > >
        > > But enough commercialism,
        > >
        > > Concerning the discussion of Baronial involvement with the YAC Program. I
        > believe the first step in achieving this goal is to try and unify all the
        > programs across the kingdom and solidify the wonderful start we have going.
        > >
        > > Does a list exist regarding which Baronies, Shires, Principalities
        > currently have programs? What about creating an organizational chart with
        > contact information, from branch to kingdom level?
        > >
        > > Currently the program in Aquaterra has kids in all three divisions and our
        > practice is held in conjunction with the Heavy fighters so we can utilize
        > their knowledge and expertise to work with the kids. So far this has been
        > working out great.
        > >
        > > We have had a YAC Champion, decided by combat, for the last three years.
        > Due to the responsibilities expected of the Champion by the Barony, it was
        > decided that the Official Champion would be from the Dragon Division. If
        > there are enough youths to enter from the other divisions, then they are
        > recognized in court for their success. This was decided by our Baron and
        > Baroness and I have yet to hear any real negative feedback concerning it. Of
        > course, just because I do not hear anything does not mean people are not
        > critical.
        > >
        > > We have also put into place the rule regarding youths fighting both in the
        > YAC and as an adult. We encourage the newly graduated fighters to help with
        > the YAC program but they are not allowed to participate in any official YAC
        > activity. We have plans to honor two of our youths who are moving up to
        > Heavy Fighting at Ursulmus this year. This is a first time for this ceremony
        > and I would like to see it done for movement through all divisions, not just
        > the move to Heavy.
        > >
        > > I understand the concern about the foam insulation used on the swords and
        > we have been experimenting with a number of different types of foam,
        > including yoga mat. The trick is to wrap it around the rattan three times to
        > ensure the proper thickness. Although what are the suggestions for wrapping
        > the edges of shields? The ¾" pipe insulation wraps around a shield edge
        > perfectly and I have not found anything that has worked any better.
        > >
        > > I currently buy and use rattan that still has the skin on it, so I have
        > not experienced the problems you are talking about. However, this is an
        > important issue. I believe there are sites on line that currently offer
        > shaved rattan for youth programs and I believe one of the Kingdom vendors,
        > Burnt Village Wares is currently selling our size rattan that has been
        > shaved. I know they sell the shaved heavy sticks but I believe they started
        > carrying the shaved ¾ stuff. So, if we are going to make this a general rule
        > we need to inform the populace. Burnt Village will be at Ursulmus, so I can
        > confirm their wares but I do not feel I should approach them with this
        > information until an official ruling has been made.
        > >
        > > On the subject of thrusting tips, I am not sure what the tool dip process
        > entales. However, our solution is to use very thin nylon, like from
        > strapping tie downs and create an "X" pattern over the top of the thrusting
        > tip, with the pieces of nylon running about a third of the way down the
        > shaft of the sword. The nylon is then covered by the foam padding that
        > covers the sword shaft. This keeps the tips from breaking off, yet still
        > allows them to be pliable enough to pass inspection. Hmm, I do not know if
        > that is the greatest of descriptions, but maybe I can set up some pictures
        > of the process and place them on the yahoo web site.
        > >
        > > I have other discussion items to propose, including introducing different
        > weapons and standardizing the ones we currently use, re-introducing the YAC
        > favor, maybe designing a slightly different version for each division and
        > various administrative issues to make our jobs easier. However, as usual
        > this has dragged on too long and I am running out of time. Please let me
        > know your thoughts and comments about any or all items I brought up
        > >
        > > I will try to post again shortly after Ursulmus and look forward to either
        > seeing or hearing from you all.
        > >
        > >
        > > IS
        > > Jolgeirr
        > > YAC Warden, Barony of Aquaterra
        > >
        >
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