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A Question About Champion Tournies

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  • sabletheblack
    Greetings everyone, It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I had heard this, many
    Message 1 of 22 , Mar 18, 2009
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      Greetings everyone,

      It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed down and said...Oh Yeah!

      So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick "a" champion or is there some other way of handling the whole situation?

      Any help would be greatly appreciated.

      In Service

      Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
      Barony of Three Mountains
      aka
      David Hemmer
      jaltona73@...
    • Asher Keim
      Our shire decided to go for it a while ago, but we wanted to open it a little and give the kids a chance to do more than fight. It turned out fantastic! Here
      Message 2 of 22 , Mar 18, 2009
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        Our shire decided to go for it a while ago, but we wanted to open it a little and give the kids a chance to do more than fight. It turned out fantastic! Here is the basic format I came up with that we used, as taken from the facebook Youth Combat Group.

        HL Malcolm Seintclerk de Brus
        Squire to Sior Murchad MacArtgle

        For those interested here is how the Bitter End youth championship was run:
        There were 2 championships on the line, as there were 2 age groups.(could be run as one, but a definite advantage to older competitors)

        Part 1: A&S
        Children were given supplies and 1 hour to make something usable in the SCA. Judging criteria was simple. There were 5 points available
        1. Was the project finished. 1 point
        2. was the project original. 1 point
        3. Was the project for SCA use. 1 point
        4 How much individual effort was put in, vs how much parent help. 2 points.

        Part 2: Archery
        (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
        First place: 5 points
        Second place: 4 points
        Third place: 3 points
        Fourth place: 2 points
        All others participating: 1 point

        Part 3: Youth combat
        (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
        First place: 5 points
        Second place: 4 points
        Third place: 3 points
        Fourth place: 2 points
        All other competitors: 1 point
        *Children without armour were considered to have participated by entering the field and trying to throw shots at armoured competitors to get a taste of youth combat. All were awarded at least 1 point*

        The scores were totalled out of 15 and the 2 highest scored children in the age categories were titled "Rising Stars" and champions of Bitter End.

        It was great to see such a wonderful amount of enthusiasm and effort put forth by the 16 competitors and the assistance of their parents. There were many children who had never shot a bow, of used a sword and this turned into a great opportunity for both lessons and great new experiences for these wonderful members of our game. It was also a very tough tournament as the 3 main aspects of our game were saddled on these kids. They truly deserve the title of Champion. I am hoping to see something like this spread beyond the borders of our shire and on to Baronies, Principalities, and Kingdoms.

        ***Note, this format has been "borrowed" to be run at Gulf Wars as a youth activity, and has been called "The Grimskalla Tourney" in honor of the first two champions, Gnar and Oxara Grimskalla.***

        --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@...> wrote:

        > From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@...>
        > Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
        > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
        > Received: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 6:58 PM
        > Greetings everyone,
        >
        > It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion
        > Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I
        > had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main
        > question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But
        > then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed
        > down and said...Oh Yeah!
        >
        > So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to
        > do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick
        > "a" champion or is there some other way of
        > handling the whole situation?
        >
        > Any help would be greatly appreciated.
        >
        > In Service
        >
        > Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
        > Barony of Three Mountains
        > aka
        > David Hemmer
        > jaltona73@...
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        __________________________________________________________________
        Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/
      • ursula_of_fowlkeep
        The Barony of Three Mountains already does a Youth Champion which covers 5 areas, Combat, Archery, A&S, Bardic, and Games, so I think we have that covered.
        Message 3 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
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          The Barony of Three Mountains already does a Youth Champion which covers 5 areas, Combat, Archery, A&S, Bardic, and Games, so I think we have that covered. That is for the champion who will stand in court. What it sounds like is the Baron and Baroness would like to draw more attention to our rebuilding YAC program by having a full tourney with a winner, I don't know if their plan is to have the YAC champion also stand in court too.

          When we rewrote the rules, we decided that cross class bouts would not be done for a raw win/loss result, because that leaves us in a situation where the older kids are told to accept almost anything from the younger kids as a legal or killing blow, but then all the combatants are told that every match counts for a tourney win. This puts the older kids in a tough spot, because if they are making the match fun for little kids, they need to take most shots as good and legal, whether they really are or not, which means essentially throwing the fight to the little kid.

          This has been an issue for my daughter. She is 5'10" and wears tunics over her sports gear armor. Little kids will hammer her right across the knee cap, and she doesn't take it because it isn't a legal blow, then she gets told she should be making it fun for the little kids, so she should accept the not legal knee shots, but if the match counts for the tourney win, shouldn't she at least be hit legally? Some older kids just pop the smaller kid on the head right off so they don't have to deal with the contradiction, but then the match isn't fun for the little kid, it's depressing. These issues make the matches frustrating for both big and little kids.

          Taking the tourney win issue out of the cross class match makes it easy for the big kids to make it fun for the little kids, because they can "throw the match" to the little kid and not suffer losing the tourney for being chivalrious. Not to mention that having a 15 year old compete with a 6 year old is unfair anyway you look at it. Taking the competition out of the match leaves it fun for both. This also removes the "have all the kids stand in a row and when the MIC holds their hand over each kid everyone cheers, and the loudest cheer gets the win." That is totally unfair, because the kid with the biggest household present usually gets the loudest cheer, whether or not they fought well, and the kid who is first always gets the quietest cheer, unless they have a big loud household present.

          The way the rules were changed to pick an overall tourney winner, is either a pre-determined gallery would decide on a tourney winner, or the most wins in the class with the most combatants wins, were the cross class options outlined in the rules, if I am reading them correctly.

          I think a gallery chosing the winner so chivalry and wins can both be counted in what makes the tourney winner, would work well for 3M champions. It also will help bring more attention to match if we are asking for people to make up the gallery. I think it could be a good way to draw members of chivalry into supporting the YAC program. Plus the gallery choosing the winner is how they did it back in the day.

          YIS

          Ursula


          --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, Asher Keim <malcolm_de_bruce@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Our shire decided to go for it a while ago, but we wanted to open it a little and give the kids a chance to do more than fight. It turned out fantastic! Here is the basic format I came up with that we used, as taken from the facebook Youth Combat Group.
          >
          > HL Malcolm Seintclerk de Brus
          > Squire to Sior Murchad MacArtgle
          >
          > For those interested here is how the Bitter End youth championship was run:
          > There were 2 championships on the line, as there were 2 age groups.(could be run as one, but a definite advantage to older competitors)
          >
          > Part 1: A&S
          > Children were given supplies and 1 hour to make something usable in the SCA. Judging criteria was simple. There were 5 points available
          > 1. Was the project finished. 1 point
          > 2. was the project original. 1 point
          > 3. Was the project for SCA use. 1 point
          > 4 How much individual effort was put in, vs how much parent help. 2 points.
          >
          > Part 2: Archery
          > (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
          > First place: 5 points
          > Second place: 4 points
          > Third place: 3 points
          > Fourth place: 2 points
          > All others participating: 1 point
          >
          > Part 3: Youth combat
          > (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
          > First place: 5 points
          > Second place: 4 points
          > Third place: 3 points
          > Fourth place: 2 points
          > All other competitors: 1 point
          > *Children without armour were considered to have participated by entering the field and trying to throw shots at armoured competitors to get a taste of youth combat. All were awarded at least 1 point*
          >
          > The scores were totalled out of 15 and the 2 highest scored children in the age categories were titled "Rising Stars" and champions of Bitter End.
          >
          > It was great to see such a wonderful amount of enthusiasm and effort put forth by the 16 competitors and the assistance of their parents. There were many children who had never shot a bow, of used a sword and this turned into a great opportunity for both lessons and great new experiences for these wonderful members of our game. It was also a very tough tournament as the 3 main aspects of our game were saddled on these kids. They truly deserve the title of Champion. I am hoping to see something like this spread beyond the borders of our shire and on to Baronies, Principalities, and Kingdoms.
          >
          > ***Note, this format has been "borrowed" to be run at Gulf Wars as a youth activity, and has been called "The Grimskalla Tourney" in honor of the first two champions, Gnar and Oxara Grimskalla.***
          >
          > --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@...> wrote:
          >
          > > From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@...>
          > > Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
          > > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
          > > Received: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 6:58 PM
          > > Greetings everyone,
          > >
          > > It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion
          > > Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I
          > > had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main
          > > question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But
          > > then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed
          > > down and said...Oh Yeah!
          > >
          > > So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to
          > > do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick
          > > "a" champion or is there some other way of
          > > handling the whole situation?
          > >
          > > Any help would be greatly appreciated.
          > >
          > > In Service
          > >
          > > Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
          > > Barony of Three Mountains
          > > aka
          > > David Hemmer
          > > jaltona73@...
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > __________________________________________________________________
          > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/
          >
        • ursula_of_fowlkeep
          Opps. I should clarify that when speaking of the rules change the we I am refering to is rewrite group, meaning Hallgrim who really did the hardest work of
          Message 4 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Opps. I should clarify that when speaking of the rules change the "we" I am refering to is rewrite group, meaning Hallgrim who really did the hardest work of rule change with input from the rest of us. I am working off of memory for some of this, because the rewrite list is closed, so I can't check the archive. Sorry for any confusion.


            Ursula

            --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, "ursula_of_fowlkeep" <solem_atrum@...> wrote:
            >
            > The Barony of Three Mountains already does a Youth Champion which covers 5 areas, Combat, Archery, A&S, Bardic, and Games, so I think we have that covered. That is for the champion who will stand in court. What it sounds like is the Baron and Baroness would like to draw more attention to our rebuilding YAC program by having a full tourney with a winner, I don't know if their plan is to have the YAC champion also stand in court too.
            >
            > When we rewrote the rules, we decided that cross class bouts would not be done for a raw win/loss result, because that leaves us in a situation where the older kids are told to accept almost anything from the younger kids as a legal or killing blow, but then all the combatants are told that every match counts for a tourney win. This puts the older kids in a tough spot, because if they are making the match fun for little kids, they need to take most shots as good and legal, whether they really are or not, which means essentially throwing the fight to the little kid.
            >
            > This has been an issue for my daughter. She is 5'10" and wears tunics over her sports gear armor. Little kids will hammer her right across the knee cap, and she doesn't take it because it isn't a legal blow, then she gets told she should be making it fun for the little kids, so she should accept the not legal knee shots, but if the match counts for the tourney win, shouldn't she at least be hit legally? Some older kids just pop the smaller kid on the head right off so they don't have to deal with the contradiction, but then the match isn't fun for the little kid, it's depressing. These issues make the matches frustrating for both big and little kids.
            >
            > Taking the tourney win issue out of the cross class match makes it easy for the big kids to make it fun for the little kids, because they can "throw the match" to the little kid and not suffer losing the tourney for being chivalrious. Not to mention that having a 15 year old compete with a 6 year old is unfair anyway you look at it. Taking the competition out of the match leaves it fun for both. This also removes the "have all the kids stand in a row and when the MIC holds their hand over each kid everyone cheers, and the loudest cheer gets the win." That is totally unfair, because the kid with the biggest household present usually gets the loudest cheer, whether or not they fought well, and the kid who is first always gets the quietest cheer, unless they have a big loud household present.
            >
            > The way the rules were changed to pick an overall tourney winner, is either a pre-determined gallery would decide on a tourney winner, or the most wins in the class with the most combatants wins, were the cross class options outlined in the rules, if I am reading them correctly.
            >
            > I think a gallery chosing the winner so chivalry and wins can both be counted in what makes the tourney winner, would work well for 3M champions. It also will help bring more attention to match if we are asking for people to make up the gallery. I think it could be a good way to draw members of chivalry into supporting the YAC program. Plus the gallery choosing the winner is how they did it back in the day.
            >
            > YIS
            >
            > Ursula
            >
            >
            > --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, Asher Keim <malcolm_de_bruce@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Our shire decided to go for it a while ago, but we wanted to open it a little and give the kids a chance to do more than fight. It turned out fantastic! Here is the basic format I came up with that we used, as taken from the facebook Youth Combat Group.
            > >
            > > HL Malcolm Seintclerk de Brus
            > > Squire to Sior Murchad MacArtgle
            > >
            > > For those interested here is how the Bitter End youth championship was run:
            > > There were 2 championships on the line, as there were 2 age groups.(could be run as one, but a definite advantage to older competitors)
            > >
            > > Part 1: A&S
            > > Children were given supplies and 1 hour to make something usable in the SCA. Judging criteria was simple. There were 5 points available
            > > 1. Was the project finished. 1 point
            > > 2. was the project original. 1 point
            > > 3. Was the project for SCA use. 1 point
            > > 4 How much individual effort was put in, vs how much parent help. 2 points.
            > >
            > > Part 2: Archery
            > > (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
            > > First place: 5 points
            > > Second place: 4 points
            > > Third place: 3 points
            > > Fourth place: 2 points
            > > All others participating: 1 point
            > >
            > > Part 3: Youth combat
            > > (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
            > > First place: 5 points
            > > Second place: 4 points
            > > Third place: 3 points
            > > Fourth place: 2 points
            > > All other competitors: 1 point
            > > *Children without armour were considered to have participated by entering the field and trying to throw shots at armoured competitors to get a taste of youth combat. All were awarded at least 1 point*
            > >
            > > The scores were totalled out of 15 and the 2 highest scored children in the age categories were titled "Rising Stars" and champions of Bitter End.
            > >
            > > It was great to see such a wonderful amount of enthusiasm and effort put forth by the 16 competitors and the assistance of their parents. There were many children who had never shot a bow, of used a sword and this turned into a great opportunity for both lessons and great new experiences for these wonderful members of our game. It was also a very tough tournament as the 3 main aspects of our game were saddled on these kids. They truly deserve the title of Champion. I am hoping to see something like this spread beyond the borders of our shire and on to Baronies, Principalities, and Kingdoms.
            > >
            > > ***Note, this format has been "borrowed" to be run at Gulf Wars as a youth activity, and has been called "The Grimskalla Tourney" in honor of the first two champions, Gnar and Oxara Grimskalla.***
            > >
            > > --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@> wrote:
            > >
            > > > From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@>
            > > > Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
            > > > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Received: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 6:58 PM
            > > > Greetings everyone,
            > > >
            > > > It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion
            > > > Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I
            > > > had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main
            > > > question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But
            > > > then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed
            > > > down and said...Oh Yeah!
            > > >
            > > > So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to
            > > > do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick
            > > > "a" champion or is there some other way of
            > > > handling the whole situation?
            > > >
            > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated.
            > > >
            > > > In Service
            > > >
            > > > Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
            > > > Barony of Three Mountains
            > > > aka
            > > > David Hemmer
            > > > jaltona73@
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________________________________________
            > > Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/
            > >
            >
          • hallgrim@greathall.org
            Hi All, Ursula is pretty much dead on. I have excerpted the relevant provisions below. Keep in mind that the rules (unless clear to the contrary) are not
            Message 5 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
            • 0 Attachment

              Hi All,

               

              Ursula is pretty much dead on.  I have excerpted the relevant provisions below.

               

              Keep in mind that the rules (unless clear to the contrary) are not optional and must be followed.  This is because cross-division combat creates safety issues.

               

              If there are any questions about the rules, please ask.

               

              Hallgrim

              KDYC

               

               

              III. YOUTH ARMOURED COMBAT DIVISIONS

              G. Cross-Division Combat

                              1. “Cross-division combat” means that a youths from one division will be fighting youths from a different division.

                              2. All cross-division combat requires that:

                                              a. The senior combatants are advised to:

                                                              i. Strike the junior opponent by a light touching with his or her weapon;

                                                              ii. Acknowledge the intentional light touches from the weapons of junior opponents as good blows; and

                                                              iii. That senior combatants fight from their knees or plant a leg when the marshal determines the terrain or other conditions warrant the precaution; or when the senior combatant believes he or she is substantially more skilled than his or her junior opponent.

                              4. Cross-division tournaments and brackets.

                                              a. Generally:

                                                              i. When one of the divisions is underrepresented it is suggested that divisions be combined to create a cross-division bracket.

                                                              ii. A branch may have a combination of a cross-division and same-division brackets within the same tournament. For example, dragons and griffins may fight in a “dragon-griffin bracket” (cross-division) and the lions may fight in a “lion bracket” (same-division).

                                                              iii. Only two combatants may be engaged within a cross-division eric at any time, this means that cross-division melee style tournaments are prohibited.

                                              b. Wins and losses:

                                                              i. Wins and losses between cross-division opponents will be announced only in the eric at the conclusion of the bout, but will not: (1) be recorded by the listkeeper; (2) used to calculate division or overall tournament champions, or (3) made available to the populace by the youth armoured combat staff.

                                                              ii. Wins and losses between same-division opponents will be recorded and the combatant with the best record within each division may be announced to the populace.

              H. Selecting Youth Armoured Combat Victors and Champions

                              1. Selecting an overall victor.

                                              a. A tournament must either have: (1) no overall tournament victor; (2) one overall victor selected by a gallery in attendance and appointed by the sponsoring branch; or (3) one overall victor who shall be the combatant with the best overall ratio of wins over losses recorded in accordance with [Section III(G)(4)(b) above] [note that the ABYAC incorrectly states Section III(C)(4)(b)] .

                                                              i. In the event of a tie where an overall tournament victor is to be declared, the following tiebreakers will be applied in order until the tie is broke: (1) if the combatants in a tie are of the same-division, they shall fight a tiebreaker bout or bouts and the winner of the bout or bouts shall be declared the overall victor, or (2) the combatant with the most wins shall be declared the overall victor, or (3) the combatant in the senior-most division shall be declared the overall victor.

                              2. Selecting a division victor.

                                              a. A branch may select a division victor by means of its own choosing provided that the selection does not run counter to the An Tir Book of Youth Armoured Combat, and specifically that cross-division wins and losses are not used to calculate the division victor.

                              3. Youth armoured combat champions of branches.

                                              a. Although there are three youth armoured combat divisions, a branch may opt to have only one youth armoured combat champion.

                                              b. Youth champions, as opposed to adult champions, may not be considered officers of the SCA and shall have no corporate responsibilities.

               

               

              From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ursula_of_fowlkeep
              Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:41 AM
              To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies

               

              <snip>

              The way the rules were changed to pick an overall tourney winner, is either a pre-determined gallery would decide on a tourney winner, or the most wins in the class with the most combatants wins, were the cross class options outlined in the rules, if I am reading them correctly.

              <end snip>

              YIS

              Ursula

              --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, Asher Keim <malcolm_de_bruce@...> wrote:

              >
              >
              > Our shire decided to go for it a while ago, but we wanted to open it a
              little and give the kids a chance to do more than fight. It turned out fantastic! Here is the basic format I came up with that we used, as taken from the facebook Youth Combat Group.
              >
              > HL Malcolm Seintclerk de Brus
              > Squire to Sior Murchad MacArtgle
              >
              > For those interested here is how the Bitter End youth championship was
              run:
              > There were 2 championships on the line, as there were 2 age groups.(could
              be run as one, but a definite advantage to older competitors)
              >
              > Part 1: A&S
              > Children were given supplies and 1 hour to make something usable in the
              SCA. Judging criteria was simple. There were 5 points available
              > 1. Was the project finished. 1 point
              > 2. was the project original. 1 point
              > 3. Was the project for SCA use. 1 point
              > 4 How much individual effort was put in, vs how much parent help. 2
              points.
              >
              > Part 2: Archery
              > (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
              > First place: 5 points
              > Second place: 4 points
              > Third place: 3 points
              > Fourth place: 2 points
              > All others participating: 1 point
              >
              > Part 3: Youth combat
              > (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
              > First place: 5 points
              > Second place: 4 points
              > Third place: 3 points
              > Fourth place: 2 points
              > All other competitors: 1 point
              > *Children without armour were considered to have participated by entering
              the field and trying to throw shots at armoured competitors to get a taste of youth combat. All were awarded at least 1 point*
              >
              > The scores were totalled out of 15 and the 2 highest scored children in
              the age categories were titled "Rising Stars" and champions of Bitter End.
              >
              > It was great to see such a wonderful amount of enthusiasm and effort put
              forth by the 16 competitors and the assistance of their parents. There were many children who had never shot a bow, of used a sword and this turned into a great opportunity for both lessons and great new experiences for these wonderful members of our game. It was also a very tough tournament as the 3 main aspects of our game were saddled on these kids. They truly deserve the title of Champion. I am hoping to see something like this spread beyond the borders of our shire and on to Baronies, Principalities, and Kingdoms.
              >
              > ***Note, this format has been "borrowed" to be run at Gulf Wars
              as a youth activity, and has been called "The Grimskalla Tourney" in honor of the first two champions, Gnar and Oxara Grimskalla.***
              >
              > --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@...> wrote:
              >
              > > From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@...>
              > > Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
              > > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
              > > Received: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 6:58 PM
              > > Greetings everyone,
              > >
              > > It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion
              > > Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I
              > > had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main
              > > question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But
              > > then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed
              > > down and said...Oh Yeah!
              > >
              > > So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to
              > > do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick
              > > "a" champion or is there some other way of
              > > handling the whole situation?
              > >
              > > Any help would be greatly appreciated.
              > >
              > > In Service
              > >
              > > Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
              > > Barony of Three Mountains
              > > aka
              > > David Hemmer
              > > jaltona73@...
              > >
              > >
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            • Jean Colbert
                 I can think of three options for you.  The First one would be the fairest for the combatants, but may be more work for you and the Barony, and have a
              Message 6 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                   I can think of three options for you.  The First one would be the fairest for the combatants, but may be more work for you and the Barony, and have a champion for each class.  The second choice would be to have the winner from each devision face off in a round robin semi-finals, possibly giving the older division in the bout a handi-cap, such as starting on their knees or loosing an arm or limiting weapon choice (ie, smaller weapon or no sheild).  You would run into problems that are inherent with cross-class combat with this choice.  The third choice I would suggest is to have three different types of Victory (ie: Most wins, most chivalrous, best death) and randomly and/or selectively assign each one of them to one class, Dragon Class wins with Most Chivalrous, Griffin class with Most Wins, and Lion Class wins with Best Death, etc.  To make it even more interesting, you can randomly choose which one will decide the Championship as well. And of course you would want to keep it a secret which one is being applied to which division, or which one is being used to determine the Champion, so they will be striving to win in all three categories.
                   Just my two pence (or would that be three pence?) worth.
                   YIS,
                     Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chassuer de Lorainne
                Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                Heavy Combatant
                Rapier Combatant
                Leatherworker
                Fletcher
                Epicurian
                Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                Tout autour du gentil type

                myspace.com/jpcolbert

                --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@...> wrote:
                From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@...>
                Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
                To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 5:58 PM

                Greetings everyone,

                It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed down and said...Oh Yeah!

                So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick "a" champion or is there some other way of handling the whole situation?

                Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                In Service

                Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
                Barony of Three Mountains
                aka
                David Hemmer
                jaltona73@yahoo. com


              • Jean Colbert
                I Like it.    YIS,      Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chassuer de Lorainne Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere Senior Youth Armored
                Message 7 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  I Like it.
                     YIS,
                       Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chassuer de Lorainne

                  Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                  Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                  Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                  Heavy Combatant
                  Rapier Combatant
                  Leatherworker
                  Fletcher
                  Epicurian
                  Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                  Tout autour du gentil type

                  myspace.com/jpcolbert

                  --- On Wed, 3/18/09, Asher Keim <malcolm_de_bruce@...> wrote:
                  From: Asher Keim <malcolm_de_bruce@...>
                  Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
                  To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 8:32 PM


                  Our shire decided to go for it a while ago, but we wanted to open it a little and give the kids a chance to do more than fight. It turned out fantastic! Here is the basic format I came up with that we used, as taken from the facebook Youth Combat Group.

                  HL Malcolm Seintclerk de Brus
                  Squire to Sior Murchad MacArtgle

                  For those interested here is how the Bitter End youth championship was run:
                  There were 2 championships on the line, as there were 2 age groups.(could be run as one, but a definite advantage to older competitors)

                  Part 1: A&S
                  Children were given supplies and 1 hour to make something usable in the SCA. Judging criteria was simple. There were 5 points available
                  1. Was the project finished. 1 point
                  2. was the project original. 1 point
                  3. Was the project for SCA use. 1 point
                  4 How much individual effort was put in, vs how much parent help. 2 points.

                  Part 2: Archery
                  (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
                  First place: 5 points
                  Second place: 4 points
                  Third place: 3 points
                  Fourth place: 2 points
                  All others participating: 1 point

                  Part 3: Youth combat
                  (split into 2 age categories, 6-11 and 12-16)
                  First place: 5 points
                  Second place: 4 points
                  Third place: 3 points
                  Fourth place: 2 points
                  All other competitors: 1 point
                  *Children without armour were considered to have participated by entering the field and trying to throw shots at armoured competitors to get a taste of youth combat. All were awarded at least 1 point*

                  The scores were totalled out of 15 and the 2 highest scored children in the age categories were titled "Rising Stars" and champions of Bitter End.

                  It was great to see such a wonderful amount of enthusiasm and effort put forth by the 16 competitors and the assistance of their parents. There were many children who had never shot a bow, of used a sword and this turned into a great opportunity for both lessons and great new experiences for these wonderful members of our game. It was also a very tough tournament as the 3 main aspects of our game were saddled on these kids. They truly deserve the title of Champion. I am hoping to see something like this spread beyond the borders of our shire and on to Baronies, Principalities, and Kingdoms.

                  ***Note, this format has been "borrowed" to be run at Gulf Wars as a youth activity, and has been called "The Grimskalla Tourney" in honor of the first two champions, Gnar and Oxara Grimskalla.* **

                  --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@yahoo. com> wrote:

                  > From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@yahoo. com>
                  > Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
                  > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com
                  > Received: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 6:58 PM
                  > Greetings everyone,
                  >
                  > It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion
                  > Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I
                  > had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main
                  > question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But
                  > then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed
                  > down and said...Oh Yeah!
                  >
                  > So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to
                  > do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick
                  > "a" champion or is there some other way of
                  > handling the whole situation?
                  >
                  > Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                  >
                  > In Service
                  >
                  > Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
                  > Barony of Three Mountains
                  > aka
                  > David Hemmer
                  > jaltona73@yahoo. com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                  Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta. messenger. yahoo.com/

                • hallgrim@greathall.org
                  Jean Pierre: I am fairly certain that having a cross-division final would violate ABYAC. Overall victor of a tournament is strictly governed. Division victor
                  Message 8 of 22 , Mar 19, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Jean Pierre:

                     

                    I am fairly certain that having a cross-division final would violate ABYAC.

                     

                    Overall victor of a tournament is strictly governed.

                     

                    Division victor is almost not governed at all.

                     

                    YACMICs are cautioned to consult the rules to make sure that ABYAC rules will not be contravened.

                     

                    The door is not shut to updating, revising ABYAC, but anything that looks like a potential deviation should be referred first to the region/principality’s YAC Minister, and then to the KDYC.

                     

                    My purpose is not to be overbearing, but it is very easy to devise a tournament that will enrage parents, or even put children in danger.  During the rewrite, we spent a lot of time and thought to strike a balance that made sense.  Again, that is not to say that the rules can’t be improved, but you really must make sure that your tournaments are in compliance with the current rules.

                     

                    I hope that makes sense.

                     

                    Hallgrim

                    KDYC

                     

                    From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jean Colbert
                    Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:49 PM
                    To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies

                     

                       I can think of three options for you.  The First one would be the fairest for the combatants, but may be more work for you and the Barony, and have a champion for each class.  The second choice would be to have the winner from each devision face off in a round robin semi-finals, possibly giving the older division in the bout a handi-cap, such as starting on their knees or loosing an arm or limiting weapon choice (ie, smaller weapon or no sheild).  You would run into problems that are inherent with cross-class combat with this choice.  The third choice I would suggest is to have three different types of Victory (ie: Most wins, most chivalrous, best death) and randomly and/or selectively assign each one of them to one class, Dragon Class wins with Most Chivalrous, Griffin class with Most Wins, and Lion Class wins with Best Death, etc.  To make it even more interesting, you can randomly choose which one will decide the Championship as well. And of course you would want to keep it a secret which one is being applied to which division, or which one is being used to determine the Champion, so they will be striving to win in all three categories.
                       Just my two pence (or would that be three pence?) worth.

                       YIS,
                         Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chassuer de Lorainne

                    Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                    Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                    Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                    Heavy Combatant
                    Rapier Combatant
                    Leatherworker
                    Fletcher
                    Epicurian
                    Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                    Tout autour du gentil type

                    myspace.com/jpcolbert

                    --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@...> wrote:

                    From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@...>
                    Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
                    To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 5:58 PM

                    Greetings everyone,

                    It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed down and said...Oh Yeah!

                    So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick "a" champion or is there some other way of handling the whole situation?

                    Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                    In Service

                    Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
                    Barony of Three Mountains
                    aka
                    David Hemmer
                    jaltona73@yahoo. com

                     

                    No virus found in this incoming message.
                    Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                    Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.20/2012 - Release Date: 03/19/09 12:26:00

                  • Daði
                    Hi Hallgrim, I have a question that relates to cross division stuff. Say you have a tournament (championship or otherwise) and you have no lions show up, one
                    Message 9 of 22 , Mar 25, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Hi Hallgrim,

                       

                      I have a question that relates to cross division stuff.   Say you have a tournament (championship or otherwise) and you have no lions show up, one griffon show up, and 5 dragons show up.

                       

                      Do you let the griffon play?    

                       

                      What about if it was one lion instead of a griffon? 

                       

                      This is a common problem in our barony, we have some very under represented age groups.   It is heartbreaking to have to tell a 10 year old who showed up with all their gear, they are not going to be able to fight because no one showed up in their  bracket.

                       

                      Thanks,

                      -= Daði

                       

                      From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hallgrim@...
                      Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:00 PM
                      To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies

                       

                      Jean Pierre:

                       

                      I am fairly certain that having a cross-division final would violate ABYAC.

                       

                      Overall victor of a tournament is strictly governed.

                       

                      Division victor is almost not governed at all.

                       

                      YACMICs are cautioned to consult the rules to make sure that ABYAC rules will not be contravened.

                       

                      The door is not shut to updating, revising ABYAC, but anything that looks like a potential deviation should be referred first to the region/principality’s YAC Minister, and then to the KDYC.

                       

                      My purpose is not to be overbearing, but it is very easy to devise a tournament that will enrage parents, or even put children in danger.  During the rewrite, we spent a lot of time and thought to strike a balance that made sense.  Again, that is not to say that the rules can’t be improved, but you really must make sure that your tournaments are in compliance with the current rules.

                       

                      I hope that makes sense.

                       

                      Hallgrim

                      KDYC

                       

                      From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jean Colbert
                      Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:49 PM
                      To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies

                       

                         I can think of three options for you.  The First one would be the fairest for the combatants, but may be more work for you and the Barony, and have a champion for each class.  The second choice would be to have the winner from each devision face off in a round robin semi-finals, possibly giving the older division in the bout a handi-cap, such as starting on their knees or loosing an arm or limiting weapon choice (ie, smaller weapon or no sheild).  You would run into problems that are inherent with cross-class combat with this choice.  The third choice I would suggest is to have three different types of Victory (ie: Most wins, most chivalrous, best death) and randomly and/or selectively assign each one of them to one class, Dragon Class wins with Most Chivalrous, Griffin class with Most Wins, and Lion Class wins with Best Death, etc.  To make it even more interesting, you can randomly choose which one will decide the Championship as well. And of course you would want to keep it a secret which one is being applied to which division, or which one is being used to determine the Champion, so they will be striving to win in all three categories.
                         Just my two pence (or would that be three pence?) worth.

                         YIS,
                           Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chassuer de Lorainne

                      Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                      Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                      Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                      Heavy Combatant
                      Rapier Combatant
                      Leatherworker
                      Fletcher
                      Epicurian
                      Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                      Tout autour du gentil type

                      myspace.com/jpcolbert

                      --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@...> wrote:

                      From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@...>
                      Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
                      To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 5:58 PM

                      Greetings everyone,

                      It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed down and said...Oh Yeah!

                      So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick "a" champion or is there some other way of handling the whole situation?

                      Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                      In Service

                      Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
                      Barony of Three Mountains
                      aka
                      David Hemmer
                      jaltona73@yahoo. com

                       

                      No virus found in this incoming message.
                      Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                      Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.20/2012 - Release Date: 03/19/09 12:26:00

                    • hallgrim@greathall.org
                      Hi Daði: You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty poor YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The
                      Message 10 of 22 , Mar 25, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Hi Daði:

                         

                        You are encouraged to let them play.  I would add, it would be a mighty poor YACMIC that would send the child home without playing.  The cross-division prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses.  As long as there is no tally taken in a  cross division bout for purposes of determining a division or overall “victor” and the appropriate directions are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.

                         

                        Plain English Rule of Thumb:  One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but you don’t tally cross-division bouts.

                         

                        Does that make sense?

                         

                        Hallgrim

                         

                         

                        From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Daði
                        Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 8:30 AM
                        To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies

                         

                        Hi Hallgrim,

                         

                        I have a question that relates to cross division stuff.   Say you have a tournament (championship or otherwise) and you have no lions show up, one griffon show up, and 5 dragons show up.

                         

                        Do you let the griffon play?    

                         

                        What about if it was one lion instead of a griffon? 

                         

                        This is a common problem in our barony, we have some very under represented age groups.   It is heartbreaking to have to tell a 10 year old who showed up with all their gear, they are not going to be able to fight because no one showed up in their  bracket.

                         

                        Thanks,

                        -= Daði

                         

                        From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hallgrim@...
                        Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 9:00 PM
                        To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies

                         

                        Jean Pierre:

                         

                        I am fairly certain that having a cross-division final would violate ABYAC.

                         

                        Overall victor of a tournament is strictly governed.

                         

                        Division victor is almost not governed at all.

                         

                        YACMICs are cautioned to consult the rules to make sure that ABYAC rules will not be contravened.

                         

                        The door is not shut to updating, revising ABYAC, but anything that looks like a potential deviation should be referred first to the region/principality’s YAC Minister, and then to the KDYC.

                         

                        My purpose is not to be overbearing, but it is very easy to devise a tournament that will enrage parents, or even put children in danger.  During the rewrite, we spent a lot of time and thought to strike a balance that made sense.  Again, that is not to say that the rules can’t be improved, but you really must make sure that your tournaments are in compliance with the current rules.

                         

                        I hope that makes sense.

                         

                        Hallgrim

                        KDYC

                         

                        From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jean Colbert
                        Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 5:49 PM
                        To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies

                         

                           I can think of three options for you.  The First one would be the fairest for the combatants, but may be more work for you and the Barony, and have a champion for each class.  The second choice would be to have the winner from each devision face off in a round robin semi-finals, possibly giving the older division in the bout a handi-cap, such as starting on their knees or loosing an arm or limiting weapon choice (ie, smaller weapon or no sheild).  You would run into problems that are inherent with cross-class combat with this choice.  The third choice I would suggest is to have three different types of Victory (ie: Most wins, most chivalrous, best death) and randomly and/or selectively assign each one of them to one class, Dragon Class wins with Most Chivalrous, Griffin class with Most Wins, and Lion Class wins with Best Death, etc.  To make it even more interesting, you can randomly choose which one will decide the Championship as well. And of course you would want to keep it a secret which one is being applied to which division, or which one is being used to determine the Champion, so they will be striving to win in all three categories.
                           Just my two pence (or would that be three pence?) worth.

                           YIS,
                             Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chassuer de Lorainne

                        Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                        Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                        Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                        Heavy Combatant
                        Rapier Combatant
                        Leatherworker
                        Fletcher
                        Epicurian
                        Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                        Tout autour du gentil type

                        myspace.com/jpcolbert

                        --- On Wed, 3/18/09, sabletheblack <jaltona73@...> wrote:

                        From: sabletheblack <jaltona73@...>
                        Subject: [AnTirYAC] A Question About Champion Tournies
                        To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, March 18, 2009, 5:58 PM

                        Greetings everyone,

                        It was made known to me recently that a YAC Champion Tourney is wished in our Barony this season. As soon as I had heard this, many questions arose in my mind. The main question was....WHAT THE HECK DID I GET MYSELF INTO. But then after looking into the bright eyes of my boys, I calmed down and said...Oh Yeah!

                        So I decided to ask here....(it seemed the smart thing to do). With three classes of fighters how does one pick "a" champion or is there some other way of handling the whole situation?

                        Any help would be greatly appreciated.

                        In Service

                        Sebastiaen "Sable" desRoseaux
                        Barony of Three Mountains
                        aka
                        David Hemmer
                        jaltona73@yahoo. com

                         

                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.20/2012 - Release Date: 03/19/09 12:26:00

                        No virus found in this incoming message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.28/2022 - Release Date: 03/25/09 07:16:00

                      • ursula_of_fowlkeep
                        I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up with ways to
                        Message 11 of 22 , Mar 27, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked, that are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with points for chivalry and technic and such.

                          I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the next year or two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend an certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking in the past.

                          Just a thought,

                          Ursula

                          --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, <hallgrim@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Daði:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty poor
                          > YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The cross-division
                          > prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As long as
                          > there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                          > determining a division or overall "victor" and the appropriate directions
                          > are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but you
                          > don't tally cross-division bouts.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Does that make sense?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hallgrim
                          >
                          >
                        • hallgrim@greathall.org
                          It’s a good idea Ursula. This fall, I’m going to be working on the YAC Marshallate Handbook. We will put that in if you remind me. Hallgrim From:
                          Message 12 of 22 , Mar 27, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment

                            It’s a good idea Ursula.  This fall, I’m going to be working on the YAC Marshallate Handbook.  We will put that in if you remind me.

                             

                            Hallgrim

                             

                            From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ursula_of_fowlkeep
                            Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 8:23 AM
                            To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies

                             

                            I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked, that are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with points for chivalry and technic and such.

                            I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the next year or two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend an certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking in the past.

                            Just a thought,

                            Ursula

                            --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, <hallgrim@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > Hi Daði:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty
                            poor
                            > YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The cross-division
                            > prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As long as
                            > there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                            > determining a division or overall "victor" and the appropriate
                            directions
                            > are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but you
                            > don't tally cross-division bouts.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Does that make sense?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hallgrim
                            >
                            >

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                          • Jean Colbert
                            I think thats a great idea.  Should we discuss possible criteria for judging the combatants on?  Heres a few I could think of.  Well, of course chivalry
                            Message 13 of 22 , Mar 27, 2009
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                              I think thats a great idea.  Should we discuss possible criteria for judging the combatants on?  Heres a few I could think of.  Well, of course chivalry should top the list, ratio of wins to losses, best death, technigue, most improved from first to last match, best showmanship or crowd appeal, size differences (a 4'9" 90# combatant defeating 3 opponents over 5' and 120# should be worth more than a 5'9" 175# combatant defeating 3 opponents under 5'5" and 150# or even 3 opponents that are the same height and weight as him/her, this ratio is just an example).  Any other ideas?
                                 YIS,
                                   Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine

                              Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                              Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                              Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                              Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                              Heavy Combatant
                              Rapier Combatant
                              Leatherworker
                              Fletcher
                              Epicurian
                              Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                              Tout autour du gentil type

                              myspace.com/jpcolbert

                              --- On Fri, 3/27/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...> wrote:
                              From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...>
                              Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                              To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 8:23 AM

                              I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked, that are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with points for chivalry and technic and such.

                              I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the next year or two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend an certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking in the past.

                              Just a thought,

                              Ursula

                              --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com, <hallgrim@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Daði:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty poor
                              > YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The cross-division
                              > prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As long as
                              > there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                              > determining a division or overall "victor" and the appropriate directions
                              > are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but you
                              > don't tally cross-division bouts.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Does that make sense?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hallgrim
                              >
                              >


                            • Daði Mánaskröggr Vébrandsson
                              Hallgrim, I understand your message below, makes sense. Ursula, Sounds like a great idea, I like where you are going with that. I see there are other messages
                              Message 14 of 22 , Mar 27, 2009
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                                Hallgrim,

                                I understand your message below, makes sense.

                                Ursula,

                                Sounds like a great idea, I like where you are going with that.

                                I see there are other messages on the topic and will reply after reading
                                them all. :-)

                                Daði

                                > It’s a good idea Ursula. This fall, I’m going to be working on the YAC
                                > Marshallate Handbook. We will put that in if you remind me.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hallgrim
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                > Of ursula_of_fowlkeep
                                > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 8:23 AM
                                > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of
                                > gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up
                                > with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw
                                > win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of
                                > falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked, that
                                > are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for
                                > gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with
                                > points
                                > for chivalry and technic and such.
                                >
                                > I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the next year or
                                > two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in
                                > getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the
                                > combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend an
                                > certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking in
                                > the past.
                                >
                                > Just a thought,
                                >
                                > Ursula
                                >
                                > --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AnTirYAC%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                                > <hallgrim@...> wrote:
                                >>
                                >> Hi Daði:
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty
                                > poor
                                >> YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The
                                >> cross-division
                                >> prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As long as
                                >> there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                                >> determining a division or overall "victor" and the appropriate
                                >> directions
                                >> are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but
                                >> you
                                >> don't tally cross-division bouts.
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Does that make sense?
                                >>
                                >>
                                >>
                                >> Hallgrim
                                >>
                                >>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                > Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.29/2024 - Release Date: 03/26/09
                                > 07:12:00
                                >
                                >


                                --
                                "All for one, and one for all!"

                                -= Daði Mánaskröggr Vébrandsson
                                MKA: Daniel
                              • Daði
                                Oops.. a little pre-comment based on my proof reading before sending: I realize this thread is discussing champion tournaments, and may or may not apply to
                                Message 15 of 22 , Mar 31, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Oops.. a little pre-comment based on my proof reading before sending:  I realize this thread is discussing champion tournaments, and may or may not apply to all tournament formats.

                                   

                                  Hi Jean-Pierre (and everyone else!),

                                   

                                  I was thinking about this thread for the last couple days and I could just swear there was something on the rules mailing list we discussed, since I archived it, I searched and found this from Earl Cire.

                                   

                                  If you read through it, there are some of the thoughts which we are now discussing, but it seems like his idea was to keep it more simple, and more subjective.     I guess the part that grabbed me the most was this bit:

                                   

                                  Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                  system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                  presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                  other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                  them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                  appearance, chivalry, etc.).

                                   

                                   

                                  Another point I’d like to make before signing off is that I believe it is up to the organizers of the tournaments to create special rules and judging conditions.   I don’t think we want to limit the creativity of our YAC activities unless it is really a safety issue.   I have run a variety of very creative and not run-of-the-mill activities, and all of them have come off very well received.   One of the things we do is the Doggie - Dagger tournament.  This is a simulated alley fight with each combatant having 2 daggers.  We also did an offhand daggers tournament, in which there was a soft rope which each combatant held with their “good” hand while attempting to score a hit with a dagger in their offhand.       I guess I would just hate to see the creativity be flushed out of the game because we over-regulate tournament formats.

                                   

                                  Here is the post in its entirety. I remember liking it when I read it, but I don’t recall it getting a lot of support.    Perhaps this is something that we can look at pursuing? 

                                   

                                  Thoughts?

                                   

                                   

                                  Earl Cire’s Post:

                                  Sorry for chiming in so late. I've been out of town on business.
                                  First let me state that I am not the parent of any kid in YAC (my
                                  children are adults now), but I have been invested in Society combat
                                  for thirty years.

                                  Perhaps we should not be trying to emulate any modern world sports
                                  models. We may not even want to emulate much of what the heavy
                                  fighting community does regarding tournaments. Rather than focusing
                                  on tournaments with winners and losers, perhaps we should treat YAC
                                  in a more period fashion, in the context of a passage of arms -
                                  fighting for the joy of fighting alone.

                                  Instead of trying to devise a system to match up opponents using any
                                  number of criteria, perhaps we just leave it up to the combatants
                                  themselves (with consultation/approval of their parents for safety
                                  reasons). Let them challenge each other to tests of arms. As the
                                  challenger, they will not be "forced" to fight anyone that they may
                                  have concerns about. And the challenged can always refuse the
                                  challenge (in accordance with the rules of the lists) without loss
                                  of honor.

                                  Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                  system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                  presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                  other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                  them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                  appearance, chivalry, etc.).

                                  Instead of building a complicated system, perhaps we should
                                  simplify to the extreme, and rely on the combatants, their
                                  parents, and the spectators to use their own good judgment.

                                  Just some thoughts from an old knight.

                                  Earl Cire

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jean Colbert
                                  Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 12:30 PM
                                  To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies

                                   

                                  I think thats a great idea.  Should we discuss possible criteria for judging the combatants on?  Heres a few I could think of.  Well, of course chivalry should top the list, ratio of wins to losses, best death, technigue, most improved from first to last match, best showmanship or crowd appeal, size differences (a 4'9" 90# combatant defeating 3 opponents over 5' and 120# should be worth more than a 5'9" 175# combatant defeating 3 opponents under 5'5" and 150# or even 3 opponents that are the same height and weight as him/her, this ratio is just an example).  Any other ideas?
                                     YIS,
                                       Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine

                                  Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                  Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                  Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                                  Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                                  Heavy Combatant
                                  Rapier Combatant
                                  Leatherworker
                                  Fletcher
                                  Epicurian
                                  Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                                  Tout autour du gentil type

                                  myspace.com/jpcolbert

                                  --- On Fri, 3/27/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...> wrote:

                                  From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...>
                                  Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                  To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 8:23 AM

                                  I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked, that are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with points for chivalry and technic and such.

                                  I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the next year or two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend an certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking in the past.

                                  Just a thought,

                                  Ursula

                                  --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com, <hallgrim@.. .> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > Hi Daði:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty
                                  poor
                                  > YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The
                                  cross-division
                                  > prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As long as
                                  > there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                                  > determining a division or overall "victor" and the appropriate
                                  directions
                                  > are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but
                                  you
                                  > don't tally cross-division bouts.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Does that make sense?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hallgrim
                                  >
                                  >

                                   

                                • ursula_of_fowlkeep
                                  I remember that post. While I liked where he was going with it, my main concern is that at this point, I don t think there people are aquainted with how a
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Mar 31, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I remember that post. While I liked where he was going with it, my main concern is that at this point, I don't think there people are aquainted with how a gallery works. So I could see that leading to the "lets line the kids up, and the kid that gets the loudest cheer is the winner" far too easily, but if an overall winner is to be chosen by gallery, the method should include things like chivalry and skill, and not simply who has the biggest loudest household present. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the "loudest cheer" method of choosing a winner banned by the rules.

                                    I would also like to see, from those that plan to be in the gallery, people who will commit to staying for the whole tourney. Then they will see who actually fought well, instead of letting anyone who happens to be on hand at the end of the tourney decide, even if they missed most of the tourney.

                                    That is why I would like to see a little guidance in starting the tradition of winner by gallery, which is my main purpose with suggesting an optional gallery info or score sheet. Once people get the feel for how galleries work, then score cards or info sheets won't be nessisary, but to get galleries off the ground, and to involve the populace, having a bit of guidance at the get go could help.

                                    YIS

                                    Urusla

                                    --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, Daði <dan@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Oops.. a little pre-comment based on my proof reading before sending: I
                                    > realize this thread is discussing champion tournaments, and may or may not
                                    > apply to all tournament formats.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Jean-Pierre (and everyone else!),
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I was thinking about this thread for the last couple days and I could just
                                    > swear there was something on the rules mailing list we discussed, since I
                                    > archived it, I searched and found this from Earl Cire.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > If you read through it, there are some of the thoughts which we are now
                                    > discussing, but it seems like his idea was to keep it more simple, and more
                                    > subjective. I guess the part that grabbed me the most was this bit:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                    > system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                    > presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                    > other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                    > them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                    > appearance, chivalry, etc.).
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Another point I'd like to make before signing off is that I believe it is up
                                    > to the organizers of the tournaments to create special rules and judging
                                    > conditions. I don't think we want to limit the creativity of our YAC
                                    > activities unless it is really a safety issue. I have run a variety of
                                    > very creative and not run-of-the-mill activities, and all of them have come
                                    > off very well received. One of the things we do is the Doggie - Dagger
                                    > tournament. This is a simulated alley fight with each combatant having 2
                                    > daggers. We also did an offhand daggers tournament, in which there was a
                                    > soft rope which each combatant held with their "good" hand while attempting
                                    > to score a hit with a dagger in their offhand. I guess I would just
                                    > hate to see the creativity be flushed out of the game because we
                                    > over-regulate tournament formats.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Here is the post in its entirety. I remember liking it when I read it, but I
                                    > don't recall it getting a lot of support. Perhaps this is something that
                                    > we can look at pursuing?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thoughts?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Earl Cire's Post:
                                    >
                                    > Sorry for chiming in so late. I've been out of town on business.
                                    > First let me state that I am not the parent of any kid in YAC (my
                                    > children are adults now), but I have been invested in Society combat
                                    > for thirty years.
                                    >
                                    > Perhaps we should not be trying to emulate any modern world sports
                                    > models. We may not even want to emulate much of what the heavy
                                    > fighting community does regarding tournaments. Rather than focusing
                                    > on tournaments with winners and losers, perhaps we should treat YAC
                                    > in a more period fashion, in the context of a passage of arms -
                                    > fighting for the joy of fighting alone.
                                    >
                                    > Instead of trying to devise a system to match up opponents using any
                                    > number of criteria, perhaps we just leave it up to the combatants
                                    > themselves (with consultation/approval of their parents for safety
                                    > reasons). Let them challenge each other to tests of arms. As the
                                    > challenger, they will not be "forced" to fight anyone that they may
                                    > have concerns about. And the challenged can always refuse the
                                    > challenge (in accordance with the rules of the lists) without loss
                                    > of honor.
                                    >
                                    > Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                    > system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                    > presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                    > other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                    > them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                    > appearance, chivalry, etc.).
                                    >
                                    > Instead of building a complicated system, perhaps we should
                                    > simplify to the extreme, and rely on the combatants, their
                                    > parents, and the spectators to use their own good judgment.
                                    >
                                    > Just some thoughts from an old knight.
                                    >
                                    > Earl Cire
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                    > Of Jean Colbert
                                    > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 12:30 PM
                                    > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I think thats a great idea. Should we discuss possible criteria for judging
                                    > the combatants on? Heres a few I could think of. Well, of course chivalry
                                    > should top the list, ratio of wins to losses, best death, technigue, most
                                    > improved from first to last match, best showmanship or crowd appeal, size
                                    > differences (a 4'9" 90# combatant defeating 3 opponents over 5' and 120#
                                    > should be worth more than a 5'9" 175# combatant defeating 3 opponents under
                                    > 5'5" and 150# or even 3 opponents that are the same height and weight as
                                    > him/her, this ratio is just an example). Any other ideas?
                                    > YIS,
                                    > Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine
                                    >
                                    > Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                    > Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                    > Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                                    > Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                                    > Heavy Combatant
                                    > Rapier Combatant
                                    > Leatherworker
                                    > Fletcher
                                    > Epicurian
                                    > Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                                    > Tout autour du gentil type
                                    >
                                    > myspace.com/jpcolbert
                                    >
                                    > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...>
                                    > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                    > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 8:23 AM
                                    >
                                    > I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of
                                    > gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up
                                    > with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw
                                    > win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of
                                    > falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked, that
                                    > are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for
                                    > gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with points
                                    > for chivalry and technic and such.
                                    >
                                    > I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the next year or
                                    > two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in
                                    > getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the
                                    > combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend an
                                    > certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking in
                                    > the past.
                                    >
                                    > Just a thought,
                                    >
                                    > Ursula
                                    >
                                    > --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC%40yahoogroups.com> s.com,
                                    > <hallgrim@ .> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Daði:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty
                                    > poor
                                    > > YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The cross-division
                                    > > prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As long as
                                    > > there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                                    > > determining a division or overall "victor" and the appropriate directions
                                    > > are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but you
                                    > > don't tally cross-division bouts.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Does that make sense?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hallgrim
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • Jean Colbert
                                    I whole heartily agree.    YIS,      Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere Member of
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Mar 31, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I whole heartily agree.
                                         YIS,
                                           Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine

                                      Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                      Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                      Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                                      Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                                      Heavy Combatant
                                      Rapier Combatant
                                      Leatherworker
                                      Fletcher
                                      Epicurian
                                      Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                                      Tout autour du gentil type

                                      myspace.com/jpcolbert

                                      --- On Tue, 3/31/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...> wrote:
                                      From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...>
                                      Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                      To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:50 AM

                                      I remember that post. While I liked where he was going with it, my main concern is that at this point, I don't think there people are aquainted with how a gallery works. So I could see that leading to the "lets line the kids up, and the kid that gets the loudest cheer is the winner" far too easily, but if an overall winner is to be chosen by gallery, the method should include things like chivalry and skill, and not simply who has the biggest loudest household present. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the "loudest cheer" method of choosing a winner banned by the rules.

                                      I would also like to see, from those that plan to be in the gallery, people who will commit to staying for the whole tourney. Then they will see who actually fought well, instead of letting anyone who happens to be on hand at the end of the tourney decide, even if they missed most of the tourney.

                                      That is why I would like to see a little guidance in starting the tradition of winner by gallery, which is my main purpose with suggesting an optional gallery info or score sheet. Once people get the feel for how galleries work, then score cards or info sheets won't be nessisary, but to get galleries off the ground, and to involve the populace, having a bit of guidance at the get go could help.

                                      YIS

                                      Urusla

                                      --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com, Daði <dan@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Oops.. a little pre-comment based on my proof reading before sending: I
                                      > realize this thread is discussing champion tournaments, and may or may not
                                      > apply to all tournament formats.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Jean-Pierre (and everyone else!),
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I was thinking about this thread for the last couple days and I could just
                                      > swear there was something on the rules mailing list we discussed, since I
                                      > archived it, I searched and found this from Earl Cire.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > If you read through it, there are some of the thoughts which we are now
                                      > discussing, but it seems like his idea was to keep it more simple, and more
                                      > subjective. I guess the part that grabbed me the most was this bit:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                      > system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                      > presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                      > other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                      > them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                      > appearance, chivalry, etc.).
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Another point I'd like to make before signing off is that I believe it is up
                                      > to the organizers of the tournaments to create special rules and judging
                                      > conditions. I don't think we want to limit the creativity of our YAC
                                      > activities unless it is really a safety issue. I have run a variety of
                                      > very creative and not run-of-the-mill activities, and all of them have come
                                      > off very well received. One of the things we do is the Doggie - Dagger
                                      > tournament. This is a simulated alley fight with each combatant having 2
                                      > daggers. We also did an offhand daggers tournament, in which there was a
                                      > soft rope which each combatant held with their "good" hand while attempting
                                      > to score a hit with a dagger in their offhand. I guess I would just
                                      > hate to see the creativity be flushed out of the game because we
                                      > over-regulate tournament formats.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Here is the post in its entirety. I remember liking it when I read it, but I
                                      > don't recall it getting a lot of support. Perhaps this is something that
                                      > we can look at pursuing?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Thoughts?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Earl Cire's Post:
                                      >
                                      > Sorry for chiming in so late. I've been out of town on business.
                                      > First let me state that I am not the parent of any kid in YAC (my
                                      > children are adults now), but I have been invested in Society combat
                                      > for thirty years.
                                      >
                                      > Perhaps we should not be trying to emulate any modern world sports
                                      > models. We may not even want to emulate much of what the heavy
                                      > fighting community does regarding tournaments. Rather than focusing
                                      > on tournaments with winners and losers, perhaps we should treat YAC
                                      > in a more period fashion, in the context of a passage of arms -
                                      > fighting for the joy of fighting alone.
                                      >
                                      > Instead of trying to devise a system to match up opponents using any
                                      > number of criteria, perhaps we just leave it up to the combatants
                                      > themselves (with consultation/ approval of their parents for safety
                                      > reasons). Let them challenge each other to tests of arms. As the
                                      > challenger, they will not be "forced" to fight anyone that they may
                                      > have concerns about. And the challenged can always refuse the
                                      > challenge (in accordance with the rules of the lists) without loss
                                      > of honor.
                                      >
                                      > Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                      > system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                      > presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                      > other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                      > them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                      > appearance, chivalry, etc.).
                                      >
                                      > Instead of building a complicated system, perhaps we should
                                      > simplify to the extreme, and rely on the combatants, their
                                      > parents, and the spectators to use their own good judgment.
                                      >
                                      > Just some thoughts from an old knight.
                                      >
                                      > Earl Cire
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
                                      > Of Jean Colbert
                                      > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 12:30 PM
                                      > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I think thats a great idea. Should we discuss possible criteria for judging
                                      > the combatants on? Heres a few I could think of. Well, of course chivalry
                                      > should top the list, ratio of wins to losses, best death, technigue, most
                                      > improved from first to last match, best showmanship or crowd appeal, size
                                      > differences (a 4'9" 90# combatant defeating 3 opponents over 5' and 120#
                                      > should be worth more than a 5'9" 175# combatant defeating 3 opponents under
                                      > 5'5" and 150# or even 3 opponents that are the same height and weight as
                                      > him/her, this ratio is just an example). Any other ideas?
                                      > YIS,
                                      > Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine
                                      >
                                      > Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                      > Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                      > Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                                      > Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                                      > Heavy Combatant
                                      > Rapier Combatant
                                      > Leatherworker
                                      > Fletcher
                                      > Epicurian
                                      > Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                                      > Tout autour du gentil type
                                      >
                                      > myspace.com/ jpcolbert
                                      >
                                      > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@ ...>
                                      > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                      > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com
                                      > Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 8:23 AM
                                      >
                                      > I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of
                                      > gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up
                                      > with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw
                                      > win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of
                                      > falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked, that
                                      > are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for
                                      > gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with points
                                      > for chivalry and technic and such.
                                      >
                                      > I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the next year or
                                      > two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in
                                      > getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the
                                      > combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend an
                                      > certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking in
                                      > the past.
                                      >
                                      > Just a thought,
                                      >
                                      > Ursula
                                      >
                                      > --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC% 40yahoogroups. com> s.com,
                                      > <hallgrim@ .> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hi Daði:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty
                                      > poor
                                      > > YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The cross-division
                                      > > prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As long as
                                      > > there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                                      > > determining a division or overall "victor" and the appropriate directions
                                      > > are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but you
                                      > > don't tally cross-division bouts.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Does that make sense?
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hallgrim
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >


                                    • Daði
                                      I also agree! I had not thought of the “loudest cheer” issue. I have run into problems with finding folks who are committed to stay for the whole
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Mar 31, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment

                                         

                                        I also agree!   I had not thought of the “loudest cheer” issue.   I have run into problems with finding folks who are committed to stay for the whole tourney to judge “most Chivalrous, best death, etc.    Some of those are best judged by peers, and the answers the kids give sometimes is a hoot!   

                                         

                                        Anyway, I think that some kind of appendix in the marshals handbook could be a tourney structure guide?  With suggestions, do’s and don’ts ?

                                         

                                        Just a thought,

                                        -= Daði

                                         

                                         

                                        From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jean Colbert
                                        Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 12:26 PM
                                        To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies

                                         

                                        I whole heartily agree.
                                           YIS,
                                             Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine

                                        Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                        Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                        Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                                        Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                                        Heavy Combatant
                                        Rapier Combatant
                                        Leatherworker
                                        Fletcher
                                        Epicurian
                                        Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                                        Tout autour du gentil type

                                        myspace.com/jpcolbert

                                        --- On Tue, 3/31/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...> wrote:

                                        From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...>
                                        Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                        To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:50 AM

                                        I remember that post. While I liked where he was going with it, my main concern is that at this point, I don't think there people are aquainted with how a gallery works. So I could see that leading to the "lets line the kids up, and the kid that gets the loudest cheer is the winner" far too easily, but if an overall winner is to be chosen by gallery, the method should include things like chivalry and skill, and not simply who has the biggest loudest household present. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the "loudest cheer" method of choosing a winner banned by the rules.

                                        I would also like to see, from those that plan to be in the gallery, people who will commit to staying for the whole tourney. Then they will see who actually fought well, instead of letting anyone who happens to be on hand at the end of the tourney decide, even if they missed most of the tourney.

                                        That is why I would like to see a little guidance in starting the tradition of winner by gallery, which is my main purpose with suggesting an optional gallery info or score sheet. Once people get the feel for how galleries work, then score cards or info sheets won't be nessisary, but to get galleries off the ground, and to involve the populace, having a bit of guidance at the get go could help.

                                        YIS

                                        Urusla

                                        --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com, Daði <dan@...> wrote:

                                        >
                                        > Oops.. a little pre-comment based on my proof reading before sending: I
                                        > realize this thread is discussing champion tournaments, and may or may
                                        not
                                        > apply to all tournament formats.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Jean-Pierre (and everyone else!),
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I was thinking about this thread for the last couple days and I could
                                        just
                                        > swear there was something on the rules mailing list we discussed, since
                                        I
                                        > archived it, I searched and found this from Earl Cire.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > If you read through it, there are some of the thoughts which we are now
                                        > discussing, but it seems like his idea was to keep it more simple, and
                                        more
                                        > subjective. I guess the part that grabbed me the most was this bit:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                        > system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                        > presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                        > other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                        > them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                        > appearance, chivalry, etc.).
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Another point I'd like to make before signing off is that I believe it
                                        is up
                                        > to the organizers of the tournaments to create special rules and judging
                                        > conditions. I don't think we want to limit the creativity of our YAC
                                        > activities unless it is really a safety issue. I have run a variety of
                                        > very creative and not run-of-the-mill activities, and all of them have
                                        come
                                        > off very well received. One of the things we do is the Doggie - Dagger
                                        > tournament. This is a simulated alley fight with each combatant having 2
                                        > daggers. We also did an offhand daggers tournament, in which there was a
                                        > soft rope which each combatant held with their "good" hand
                                        while attempting
                                        > to score a hit with a dagger in their offhand. I guess I would just
                                        > hate to see the creativity be flushed out of the game because we
                                        > over-regulate tournament formats.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Here is the post in its entirety. I remember liking it when I read it,
                                        but I
                                        > don't recall it getting a lot of support. Perhaps this is something that
                                        > we can look at pursuing?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Thoughts?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Earl Cire's Post:
                                        >
                                        > Sorry for chiming in so late. I've been out of town on business.
                                        > First let me state that I am not the parent of any kid in YAC (my
                                        > children are adults now), but I have been invested in Society combat
                                        > for thirty years.
                                        >
                                        > Perhaps we should not be trying to emulate any modern world sports
                                        > models. We may not even want to emulate much of what the heavy
                                        > fighting community does regarding tournaments. Rather than focusing
                                        > on tournaments with winners and losers, perhaps we should treat YAC
                                        > in a more period fashion, in the context of a passage of arms -
                                        > fighting for the joy of fighting alone.
                                        >
                                        > Instead of trying to devise a system to match up opponents using any
                                        > number of criteria, perhaps we just leave it up to the combatants
                                        > themselves (with consultation/ approval of their parents for safety
                                        > reasons). Let them challenge each other to tests of arms. As the
                                        > challenger, they will not be "forced" to fight anyone that
                                        they may
                                        > have concerns about. And the challenged can always refuse the
                                        > challenge (in accordance with the rules of the lists) without loss
                                        > of honor.
                                        >
                                        > Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                        > system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                        > presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                        > other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                        > them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                        > appearance, chivalry, etc.).
                                        >
                                        > Instead of building a complicated system, perhaps we should
                                        > simplify to the extreme, and rely on the combatants, their
                                        > parents, and the spectators to use their own good judgment.
                                        >
                                        > Just some thoughts from an old knight.
                                        >
                                        > Earl Cire
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup
                                        s.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroup s.com] On Behalf
                                        > Of Jean Colbert
                                        > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 12:30 PM
                                        > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup
                                        s.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I think thats a great idea. Should we discuss possible criteria for
                                        judging
                                        > the combatants on? Heres a few I could think of. Well, of course
                                        chivalry
                                        > should top the list, ratio of wins to losses, best death, technigue,
                                        most
                                        > improved from first to last match, best showmanship or crowd appeal,
                                        size
                                        > differences (a 4'9" 90# combatant defeating 3 opponents over 5' and
                                        120#
                                        > should be worth more than a 5'9" 175# combatant defeating 3
                                        opponents under
                                        > 5'5" and 150# or even 3 opponents that are the same height and
                                        weight as
                                        > him/her, this ratio is just an example). Any other ideas?
                                        > YIS,
                                        > Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine
                                        >
                                        > Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                        > Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                        > Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                                        > Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                                        > Heavy Combatant
                                        > Rapier Combatant
                                        > Leatherworker
                                        > Fletcher
                                        > Epicurian
                                        > Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                                        > Tout autour du gentil type
                                        >
                                        > myspace.com/ jpcolbert
                                        >
                                        > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@ ...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@ ...>
                                        > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                        > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup
                                        s.com
                                        > Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 8:23 AM
                                        >
                                        > I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of
                                        > gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come
                                        up
                                        > with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw
                                        > win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of
                                        > falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked,
                                        that
                                        > are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for
                                        > gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with
                                        points
                                        > for chivalry and technic and such.
                                        >
                                        > I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the
                                        next year or
                                        > two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in
                                        > getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the
                                        > combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend
                                        an
                                        > certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking
                                        in
                                        > the past.
                                        >
                                        > Just a thought,
                                        >
                                        > Ursula
                                        >
                                        > --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                        s.com,
                                        > <hallgrim@ .> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hi Daði:
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a
                                        mighty
                                        > poor
                                        > > YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The
                                        cross-division
                                        > > prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As
                                        long as
                                        > > there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                                        > > determining a division or overall "victor" and the
                                        appropriate directions
                                        > > are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone,
                                        but you
                                        > > don't tally cross-division bouts.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Does that make sense?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Hallgrim
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >

                                         

                                      • ursula_of_fowlkeep
                                        Perhaps asking near the end of opening court for a gallery member sign up, and being sure the town crier annouces the tourney and reminds gallery members to
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 1, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Perhaps asking near the end of opening court for a gallery member sign up, and being sure the town crier annouces the tourney and reminds gallery members to show up? That would add a little public pressure to remind people that comitted in writing earlier in the day. This is an area where engaging the populace may be tricky at first.

                                          For years, in my region, there has been so many sloppy YAC tourneys, that people don't really take them seriously, so I would not be surprised if we see some of this issue. Currently in my barony, both the seneshal and baron are very pro YAC, so getting one of them to commit to sitting in the gallery a couple of times might help draw the right attention to YAC.

                                          I had thought about having a do's and don't's section on tourneys too, with "loudest cheer" to determine winner being the second don't, after "allowing cross class matches to count for raw/win loss numbers" for the first don't. "Loudest cheer" is such a lowest common denominator way of picking a winner, because the dynamics of crowds and noise, and that crowds will build in noise if they are asked to repeat it, so the first kid in line never gets much noise and the last kid often gets a very big cheer that has more to do with people feeling rowdy from cheering.

                                          While I'm not crazy about a score card, it could be useful in educating the populace on galleries. There is no need to require it's use, if its published and put in an easy to find place, some people will use it because it's easier then making up their own criteria and some situations need that leg up. Plus handing a sheet of paper to gallery members adds to the feeling of "I need to stay and fill this thing out".

                                          I like the gallery idea and fully support it, but since we don't do it in heavy fighting we are building a YAC culture that is it's own unique beastie, and drawing people without YAC kids into it will be a bit of a challenge. I think that bringing attention to the program in court with some sort of YAC annoucement frequently, may be a good method of publicity to draw people in. Maybe have some sort of gallery prizes or gifts for the gallery members might also help bring interest in doing gallery for YAC. Heck even a plate of cookies made special for the gallery members could be enough to make some folks stay for the whole tourney.

                                          YIS

                                          Ursula




                                          --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, Daði <dan@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I also agree! I had not thought of the "loudest cheer" issue. I have run
                                          > into problems with finding folks who are committed to stay for the whole
                                          > tourney to judge "most Chivalrous, best death, etc. Some of those are
                                          > best judged by peers, and the answers the kids give sometimes is a hoot!
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Anyway, I think that some kind of appendix in the marshals handbook could be
                                          > a tourney structure guide? With suggestions, do's and don'ts ?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Just a thought,
                                          >
                                          > -= Daði
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          > Of Jean Colbert
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2009 12:26 PM
                                          > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I whole heartily agree.
                                          > YIS,
                                          > Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine
                                          >
                                          > Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                          > Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                          > Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                                          > Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                                          > Heavy Combatant
                                          > Rapier Combatant
                                          > Leatherworker
                                          > Fletcher
                                          > Epicurian
                                          > Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                                          > Tout autour du gentil type
                                          >
                                          > myspace.com/jpcolbert
                                          >
                                          > --- On Tue, 3/31/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@...>
                                          > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                          > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: Tuesday, March 31, 2009, 9:50 AM
                                          >
                                          > I remember that post. While I liked where he was going with it, my main
                                          > concern is that at this point, I don't think there people are aquainted with
                                          > how a gallery works. So I could see that leading to the "lets line the kids
                                          > up, and the kid that gets the loudest cheer is the winner" far too easily,
                                          > but if an overall winner is to be chosen by gallery, the method should
                                          > include things like chivalry and skill, and not simply who has the biggest
                                          > loudest household present. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing the "loudest
                                          > cheer" method of choosing a winner banned by the rules.
                                          >
                                          > I would also like to see, from those that plan to be in the gallery, people
                                          > who will commit to staying for the whole tourney. Then they will see who
                                          > actually fought well, instead of letting anyone who happens to be on hand at
                                          > the end of the tourney decide, even if they missed most of the tourney.
                                          >
                                          > That is why I would like to see a little guidance in starting the tradition
                                          > of winner by gallery, which is my main purpose with suggesting an optional
                                          > gallery info or score sheet. Once people get the feel for how galleries
                                          > work, then score cards or info sheets won't be nessisary, but to get
                                          > galleries off the ground, and to involve the populace, having a bit of
                                          > guidance at the get go could help.
                                          >
                                          > YIS
                                          >
                                          > Urusla
                                          >
                                          > --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC%40yahoogroups.com> s.com, Daði
                                          > <dan@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Oops.. a little pre-comment based on my proof reading before sending: I
                                          > > realize this thread is discussing champion tournaments, and may or may not
                                          > > apply to all tournament formats.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Hi Jean-Pierre (and everyone else!),
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > I was thinking about this thread for the last couple days and I could just
                                          > > swear there was something on the rules mailing list we discussed, since I
                                          > > archived it, I searched and found this from Earl Cire.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > If you read through it, there are some of the thoughts which we are now
                                          > > discussing, but it seems like his idea was to keep it more simple, and
                                          > more
                                          > > subjective. I guess the part that grabbed me the most was this bit:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                          > > system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                          > > presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                          > > other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                          > > them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                          > > appearance, chivalry, etc.).
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Another point I'd like to make before signing off is that I believe it is
                                          > up
                                          > > to the organizers of the tournaments to create special rules and judging
                                          > > conditions. I don't think we want to limit the creativity of our YAC
                                          > > activities unless it is really a safety issue. I have run a variety of
                                          > > very creative and not run-of-the-mill activities, and all of them have
                                          > come
                                          > > off very well received. One of the things we do is the Doggie - Dagger
                                          > > tournament. This is a simulated alley fight with each combatant having 2
                                          > > daggers. We also did an offhand daggers tournament, in which there was a
                                          > > soft rope which each combatant held with their "good" hand while
                                          > attempting
                                          > > to score a hit with a dagger in their offhand. I guess I would just
                                          > > hate to see the creativity be flushed out of the game because we
                                          > > over-regulate tournament formats.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Here is the post in its entirety. I remember liking it when I read it, but
                                          > I
                                          > > don't recall it getting a lot of support. Perhaps this is something that
                                          > > we can look at pursuing?
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Thoughts?
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Earl Cire's Post:
                                          > >
                                          > > Sorry for chiming in so late. I've been out of town on business.
                                          > > First let me state that I am not the parent of any kid in YAC (my
                                          > > children are adults now), but I have been invested in Society combat
                                          > > for thirty years.
                                          > >
                                          > > Perhaps we should not be trying to emulate any modern world sports
                                          > > models. We may not even want to emulate much of what the heavy
                                          > > fighting community does regarding tournaments. Rather than focusing
                                          > > on tournaments with winners and losers, perhaps we should treat YAC
                                          > > in a more period fashion, in the context of a passage of arms -
                                          > > fighting for the joy of fighting alone.
                                          > >
                                          > > Instead of trying to devise a system to match up opponents using any
                                          > > number of criteria, perhaps we just leave it up to the combatants
                                          > > themselves (with consultation/ approval of their parents for safety
                                          > > reasons). Let them challenge each other to tests of arms. As the
                                          > > challenger, they will not be "forced" to fight anyone that they may
                                          > > have concerns about. And the challenged can always refuse the
                                          > > challenge (in accordance with the rules of the lists) without loss
                                          > > of honor.
                                          > >
                                          > > Rather than an objective recognition system, let the recognition
                                          > > system be more subjective (again, a more period practice). Let the
                                          > > presiding nobility, a ladies gallery, the knights present, or some
                                          > > other body, reward the combatant or combatants that most impressed
                                          > > them, using whatever criteria they choose (prowess, courtesy,
                                          > > appearance, chivalry, etc.).
                                          > >
                                          > > Instead of building a complicated system, perhaps we should
                                          > > simplify to the extreme, and rely on the combatants, their
                                          > > parents, and the spectators to use their own good judgment.
                                          > >
                                          > > Just some thoughts from an old knight.
                                          > >
                                          > > Earl Cire
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
                                          > [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC%40yahoogroups.com> s.com] On
                                          > Behalf
                                          > > Of Jean Colbert
                                          > > Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 12:30 PM
                                          > > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
                                          > > Subject: Re: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > I think thats a great idea. Should we discuss possible criteria for
                                          > judging
                                          > > the combatants on? Heres a few I could think of. Well, of course chivalry
                                          > > should top the list, ratio of wins to losses, best death, technigue, most
                                          > > improved from first to last match, best showmanship or crowd appeal, size
                                          > > differences (a 4'9" 90# combatant defeating 3 opponents over 5' and 120#
                                          > > should be worth more than a 5'9" 175# combatant defeating 3 opponents
                                          > under
                                          > > 5'5" and 150# or even 3 opponents that are the same height and weight as
                                          > > him/her, this ratio is just an example). Any other ideas?
                                          > > YIS,
                                          > > Lord Jean-Pierre Colbert le Chasseur de Lorraine
                                          > >
                                          > > Youth Armored Combat Warden for the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                          > > Member of the Beevarian Guard of the Barony of Glymm Mere
                                          > > Senior Youth Armored Combat Marshal
                                          > > Junior Heavy Combat Marshal
                                          > > Heavy Combatant
                                          > > Rapier Combatant
                                          > > Leatherworker
                                          > > Fletcher
                                          > > Epicurian
                                          > > Chanteur Extraordinaire!
                                          > > Tout autour du gentil type
                                          > >
                                          > > myspace.com/ jpcolbert
                                          > >
                                          > > --- On Fri, 3/27/09, ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@ ...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > From: ursula_of_fowlkeep <solem_atrum@ ...>
                                          > > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                          > > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC%40yahoogroups.com> s.com
                                          > > Date: Friday, March 27, 2009, 8:23 AM
                                          > >
                                          > > I am begining to wonder if maybe we should try to work up some sort of
                                          > > gallery form, that would be optional to use, but would help people come up
                                          > > with ways to determine an overall tourney winner that is not done on raw
                                          > > win/losses only. It might help people follow the new rules, instead of
                                          > > falling back all the former ways overall tourney winners were picked, that
                                          > > are no longer allowed. It could be as simple as an instruction sheet for
                                          > > gallery judges on what to look for, or it could be a proper form with
                                          > points
                                          > > for chivalry and technic and such.
                                          > >
                                          > > I think we will be in an "educate the populace" mode for the next year or
                                          > > two, so maybe offering some guidance for galleries would be helpful in
                                          > > getting people to understand the new rules and how people beyond the
                                          > > combatants, parents, and marshalls can be involved. It might also lend an
                                          > > certain feel of officaldom to youth touneys that has often been lacking in
                                          > > the past.
                                          > >
                                          > > Just a thought,
                                          > >
                                          > > Ursula
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroup <mailto:AnTirYAC% 40yahoogroups. com> s.com,
                                          > > <hallgrim@ .> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hi Daði:
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > You are encouraged to let them play. I would add, it would be a mighty
                                          > > poor
                                          > > > YACMIC that would send the child home without playing. The
                                          > cross-division
                                          > > > prohibitions mainly have to do with tallying wins and losses. As long as
                                          > > > there is no tally taken in a cross division bout for purposes of
                                          > > > determining a division or overall "victor" and the appropriate
                                          > directions
                                          > > > are given to the senior participants, there is no problem.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Plain English Rule of Thumb: One on one, anyone can fight anyone, but
                                          > you
                                          > > > don't tally cross-division bouts.
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Does that make sense?
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Hallgrim
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Daði
                                          Trimmed this for the sake of keeping our inboxes a bit smaller. .. All this great conversation makes me think that we should plan some kind of summit or
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 2, 2009
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                                            Trimmed this for the sake of keeping our inboxes a bit smaller. ..

                                             

                                            All this great conversation makes me think that we should plan some kind of summit or meeting of people interested (and active) in YAC.   Perhaps a kingdom event this season?   Any suggestions on an event that the folks on this list might have in common?

                                             

                                            Hallgrim, do you know your plans for the season yet?

                                             

                                            Cheers,

                                            -= Daði

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                            From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ursula_of_fowlkeep
                                            Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:05 AM
                                            To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies

                                             

                                             

                                          • ursula_of_fowlkeep
                                            I think a couple of YAC meetings at different kingdom events would be great, so more of the kingdom can take part in the conversation. The next three Kingdom
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Apr 6, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              I think a couple of YAC meetings at different kingdom events would be great, so more of the kingdom can take part in the conversation. The next three Kingdom events are May Crown in Montengard(Calgary AB) , July Coronation in Three Mountains (Portland Or.) , and September Crown in Terra Pomeria (Salem Or.). I would also suggest Sport of Kings in Three Mountains be considered for this list, because it draws folks from all over AnTir for combat classes, and so far there are plans to have some YAC classes. Of course this is all contingent on Hallgrim's schedule.

                                              So, for what it is worth, I will be at July Coronation, September Crown, and Sport of Kings, and would like to join in.


                                              Ursula



                                              --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, Daði <dan@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Trimmed this for the sake of keeping our inboxes a bit smaller. ..
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > All this great conversation makes me think that we should plan some kind of
                                              > summit or meeting of people interested (and active) in YAC. Perhaps a
                                              > kingdom event this season? Any suggestions on an event that the folks on
                                              > this list might have in common?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hallgrim, do you know your plans for the season yet?
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Cheers,
                                              >
                                              > -= Daði
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                              > Of ursula_of_fowlkeep
                                              > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:05 AM
                                              > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                              >
                                            • hallgrim@greathall.org
                                              Hi All: There’s no reason that folks can’t get together for YAC just because I can’t be there. The YAC Ministers would be ideal to lead a meeting. =) I
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Apr 6, 2009
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                                                Hi All:

                                                 

                                                There’s no reason that folks can’t get together for YAC just because I can’t be there.  The YAC Ministers would be ideal to lead a meeting.  =)

                                                 

                                                I am kaput until August.  So Sport of Kings and Sep Crown will be the events that I will be going to.  I hate to be absent this Summer but there’s no helping it due to real life.

                                                 

                                                Hallgrim

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ursula_of_fowlkeep
                                                Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:30 AM
                                                To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies

                                                 

                                                I think a couple of YAC meetings at different kingdom events would be great, so more of the kingdom can take part in the conversation. The next three Kingdom events are May Crown in Montengard(Calgary AB) , July Coronation in Three Mountains (Portland Or.) , and September Crown in Terra Pomeria (Salem Or.). I would also suggest Sport of Kings in Three Mountains be considered for this list, because it draws folks from all over AnTir for combat classes, and so far there are plans to have some YAC classes. Of course this is all contingent on Hallgrim's schedule.

                                                So, for what it is worth, I will be at July Coronation, September Crown, and Sport of Kings, and would like to join in.

                                                Ursula

                                                --- In AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com, Daði <dan@...> wrote:

                                                >
                                                > Trimmed this for the sake of keeping our inboxes a bit smaller. ..
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > All this great conversation makes me think that we should plan some kind
                                                of
                                                > summit or meeting of people interested (and active) in YAC. Perhaps a
                                                > kingdom event this season? Any suggestions on an event that the folks on
                                                > this list might have in common?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hallgrim, do you know your plans for the season yet?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Cheers,
                                                >
                                                > -= Daði
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > From: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                                [mailto:AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                                > Of ursula_of_fowlkeep
                                                > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 10:05 AM
                                                > To: AnTirYAC@yahoogroups.com
                                                > Subject: [AnTirYAC] Re: A Question About Champion Tournies
                                                >

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