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Re: The Eternal Nazi

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  • Sawyer Kochanski <sfkochanski@yahoo.com>
    ... be ... his ... I wasn t the one attempting to make the collectivist connection; that was David. My point was simply that the language he used seemed to
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 1, 2003
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      --- In American_Liberty@yahoogroups.com, Mike Schneider <mike1@u...>
      wrote:
      > At 7:16 PM +0000 12/31/02, Sawyer Kochanski <sfkochanski@y...>
      wrote:
      > >Where's the straw man? Help me out Mike, since I do not claim to
      be
      > >as well-versed in logical fallacies as many here.
      >
      >
      > The straw man is in your equation of hyperbole with collectivist
      > argument while attempting to "shoot the messenger". Grim is not a
      > collectivist, and this would be very apparent if you read more of
      his
      > material.


      I wasn't the one attempting to make the collectivist connection; that
      was David. My point was simply that the language he used seemed to
      reveal something about his thought process when it came to Germans.

      And the second piece you posted by Grim just proved my point, I
      think. It was exceedingly well-written until the last couple of
      paragraphs (which fall back into something closer to that
      same 'hyperbole'), but also had more distance from its subject than
      the Pianist essay. So when he applies his logical, editorial brain
      he can avoid those kinds of linguistic absurdities and still make his
      point, but when his reaction is more visceral what comes out is 'all
      Germans contain the seeds of Nazism'.

      Sawyer
    • Mike Schneider
      ... Yeahyeahyeah. Meanwhile, what about all those assholes he was talking about?
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 1, 2003
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        At 4:33 PM +0000 1/1/03, Sawyer Kochanski <sfkochanski@...> wrote:
        >--- In American_Liberty@yahoogroups.com, Mike Schneider <mike1@u...>
        >but when his reaction is more visceral what comes out is 'all
        >Germans contain the seeds of Nazism'.


        Yeahyeahyeah.

        Meanwhile, what about all those assholes he was talking about?



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      • Dave <mojomomoney@yahoo.com>
        ME:I don t think that it is important to demonstrate that Grim is a collectivist. You: It is if you re making the argument that he is. How does this basic
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 1, 2003
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          ME:I don't think that it is important to demonstrate that Grim is a
          collectivist.


          You: It is if you're making the argument that he is. How does this
          basic logical necessity escape you?

          My argument is precisely this: He used an argument that is only
          appropriate for a collectivist to use. This does not mean that he is
          one necessarily, but that there is perhaps a blind spot that makes him
          feel some sense of guilt for something he doesn't have any part of. To
          want to eliminate Beethoven from one's listening pleasure is
          nonsensical, as it implies some kind of racial demon that all Germans
          share. (Whether or not he literally meant to do so is beside the
          point) I imagine that we all have some blind spots, but this one had
          an ugly element to it and that is hate for a certain racial group
          called German. Others can jump on board and say, "yeah, those asshole
          Germans." Just substitute the word Jews for Germans and see if it
          makes anyone feel uncomfortable.

          The German Nazi's were human(as compared to monsters) and for years
          were indoctrinated by foul philosophy(like Hegel), not to mention
          religion(Luther). We can't imagine the impact of their inflationary
          economy, and so it is easy to see how they were desparate for any
          answer to get out of their prediciment. When Hitler arrived on the
          scence, it wouldn't necessarily be apparent that he was any more
          **evil** then other politicians in their weak democratic Republic.
          Anti-Semitism was far more widespead then just Germany, but was quite
          common in all of Europe and even America. There were no records of
          Hitler planning to exterminate the Jews until 1941. The plan before
          that was to expel them from Germany. It is easy to look in hindsight
          and see the German people as something less then human. I would say
          that they are not so much different then the collectivists of today
          that might be your friends or neighbors that could easily be
          manipulated in times of crisis. It might not be Jew hatred that will
          raise its ugly head as it once did in Nazi Germany, but perhaps the
          lovers of liberty will become the object of scorn by the elitists? (In
          fact, aren't we already hated by them?)
        • Michael Doughty
          ... I don t think that his main goal was to expose him as a collectivist, but to expose his particular train of thought in this respect as a collectivist one.
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 2, 2003
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            On Thu, 2 Jan 2003, Dave <mojomomoney@...> wrote:

            > ME:I don't think that it is important to demonstrate that Grim is a
            > collectivist.
            >
            >
            > You: It is if you're making the argument that he is. How does this
            > basic logical necessity escape you?

            I don't think that his main goal was to expose him as a collectivist, but
            to expose his particular train of thought in this respect as a
            collectivist one. It isn't possible to refer to Germans as a collective
            group of scoundrels and phrase it without exceptions, and that argument
            not then be a collectivist one, unless every single German can be
            accounted for and determined individually to fit the criteria he
            describes.

            I agree that a culture can become sick, but even in a sick culture there
            is a minority of opposition among those who accept and practice the sick
            culture. Regardless, it isn't that apparent in either article posted here
            that the author intended to indict the culture rather than the German
            people collectively.

            Even out of all of this though, the author's main point seems to have been
            to draw attention to the resurgence of old ideas in Germany itself, and
            that particular expose is a worthy one given the resurgence of Nazi dogma
            in that part of Europe (Germany, Austria). For example, about five years
            ago, give for take a year or two, there was a Nazi Government
            elected in a local province of Austria. It raised enough eyebrows to get
            the UN's attention. It would be unwise to refuse to take note of the
            trend and keep an eye on it.
          • Mike Schneider
            ... He is not the subject. Is there a problem going on in Europe or not? ... Unless one expects his audience to be *intelligent enough* to realize
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 2, 2003
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              At 7:48 AM +0000 1/2/03, Dave <mojomomoney@...> wrote:
              >ME:I don't think that it is important to demonstrate that Grim is a
              >collectivist.
              >
              >>You: It is if you're making the argument that he is. How does this
              >>basic logical necessity escape you?
              >
              >My argument is precisely this: He [Grim]...

              <shred>


              "He" is not the subject.

              Is there a problem going on in Europe or not?


              At 11:47 AM -0500 1/2/03, Michael Doughty wrote:
              >It isn't possible to refer to Germans as a collective
              >group of scoundrels and phrase it without exceptions


              Unless one expects his audience to be *intelligent enough* to realize
              that exceptions are implied (and hence unnecessary to list) in one's
              own dismissal of collectivist imbecility over there.

              Everybody: Quit arguing in a vacuum.



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            • Sawyer Kochanski <sfkochanski@yahoo.com>
              ... That s not the question. ANY resurgency of Nazism, no matter how small, is a problem. The question is, Is the problem as bad as Grim would have us
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 3, 2003
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                --- In American_Liberty@yahoogroups.com, Mike Schneider <mike1@u...>
                wrote:
                > Is there a problem going on in Europe or not?

                That's not the question. ANY resurgency of Nazism, no matter how
                small, is a problem. The question is, "Is the problem as bad as Grim
                would have us believe?"

                And there's no way to answer that based on Grim's writing, precisely
                because he seems to have a strong bias when it comes to this
                subject. The theater essay would be horrifying if it were true, but
                I don't know that it happened exactly as he said it did. Even in the
                protest essay, the numbers he listed for the demonstrators on both
                sides weren't very high for a city the size of Munich, especially
                considering the university affiliation, and that's even assuming he
                didn't inflate the numbers.

                You claim that the exceptions are implied. Maybe. I don't believe
                that someone who says Theodor Adorno speaks for the German people is
                going to admit to many exceptions, though.

                This isn't a case of me shooting the messenger; it's a case of the
                messenger shooting himself in the foot. My first thought after
                reading those essays should have been, "Damn, that's bad." Instead
                it was, "What's he up to here?"

                Sawyer
              • Mike Schneider
                ... ... Which is exactly why y all should quit wasting so much time picking on it. Jesus Hornytoads.... Post something *useful*, Sawyer. Like *your* appraisal
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 3, 2003
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                  At 4:50 PM +0000 1/3/03, Sawyer Kochanski <sfkochanski@...> wrote:
                  >--- In American_Liberty@yahoogroups.com, Mike Schneider <mike1@u...>
                  >wrote:
                  > > Is there a problem going on in Europe or not?
                  >
                  >That's not the question. ANY resurgency of Nazism, no matter how
                  >small, is a problem. The question is, "Is the problem as bad as Grim
                  >would have us believe?"
                  >
                  >And there's no way to answer that based on Grim's writing
                  ...


                  Which is exactly why y'all should quit wasting so much time picking on it.

                  Jesus Hornytoads....

                  Post something *useful*, Sawyer. Like *your* appraisal of Europe's
                  mean collectivist bent. Oh, wait, that would require work, wouldn't
                  it?


                  Fuck all ankle-biters. I'm really sick of it.



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