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Re: [American_Liberty] Re: Pregnancy, IVF and the RIGHTS of Sperm.Blastocyts and Embryos and HUMAN BEINGS

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  • John T. Kennedy
    ... That s right. Never, to the best of my knowledge; and I have no reasonable doubts on this matter whatsoever. How far do you want to take this line of
    Message 1 of 44 , Jul 19, 2002
      --- somena2001 <meaghan_walker@...> wrote:
      > --- In American_Liberty@y..., "John T. Kennedy" <john_t_kennedy@y...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Have you Stopped Killing your Children John?
      > >
      > > No, I never started.
      > >
      >
      > Never had sex with a woman on the Pill -
      > Deprovra, or IUD?

      That's right. Never, to the best of my knowledge; and I have no reasonable
      doubts on this matter whatsoever. How far do you want to take this line of
      questioning Meaghan?

      Even if I had, it could only reflect upon me and not the merit of my argument.
      But thrash onward if if it makes you feel better.

      =====
      John T. Kennedy

      No Treason!
      http://www.no-treason.com/weblog/

      __________________________________________________
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    • sfkochanski
      ... one, ... abortion ... to ... believe ... them as ... They are not being treated as laboratory animals. They are being used for the same purpose that
      Message 44 of 44 , Jul 21, 2002
        --- In American_Liberty@y..., Michael Doughty <mozart@r...> wrote:
        >
        > On Sun, 21 Jul 2002, sfkochanski wrote:
        > > I must assume your view of an IVF clinic is a particularly dim
        one,
        > > since they are killing people not just one at a time like an
        abortion
        > > clinic but by the dozens.
        >
        > Particularly dim because I believe they are being killed similarly
        to
        > abortion?
        >
        > Yes -- I do believe they are being wrongly killed. Yes -- I do
        believe
        > they have rights. No -- I don't believe it is "right" to treat
        them as
        > laboratory animals.


        They are not being treated as laboratory animals. They are being
        used for the same purpose that embryos have always been used since
        humanity existed- to try and continue the species.

        (snip)

        > > > A cell which constitutes a clone of a human being is a zygote,
        and
        > > will in
        > > > time reach the developmental stage of "embryo".
        > >
        > > So in other words, an actual human being waves a magic wand over
        the
        > > cell and says "We are going to make you a human being through
        > > cloning, little cell, so- poof!- you already are. Here's your
        > > voter's registration."
        >
        > Not exactly. Once the clone is initiated,

        -the magic wand is waived-

        > he becomes self-replicating --
        > self-developing. He is, at that point, his own human being. Until
        the
        > point that the cell is able to do this, it is not a human being.
        At which
        > point when it can, he IS, by the very definition of what a human
        being is
        > in scientific terms. His rational faculty is his,


        An embryo, or a cell, has no rational faculty, by the very definition
        of what a rational faculty IS. The basic hardware that enables
        a 'rational faculty' won't develop for many months yet.

        > by his nature, just as
        > your rational faculty is yours, by your nature.


        Tables A, B and C each have an apple on them. Table D does not. Is
        it the nature of tables to have apples on them?

        (snip)

        > > > He is being prevented from self-organizing.
        > >
        > > How so? This embryo has never seen the inside of a womb. It was
        > > created in a petri dish and immediately transported to a freezer.
        > > Without human intervention it will *never self-organize*. If
        left to
        > > its own devices it will degrade into nothingness, not turn into a
        > > child.
        >
        > If I were born in outer space, would that make me a different kind
        of
        > organism?


        Yes, it certainly might- the conditions in outer space are unusual
        enough that an evolutionary shift could occur (homo sapiens
        kosmos?). It will be an interesting process to observe, once
        humanity starts living entire life cycles in space. But this has
        nothing to do with this debate.

        > If I were then frozen in a huge cube of ice, would I fail to
        > be a human being? I fail to see how whether the embryo having seen
        the
        > inside of a womb, or having been frozen, is a determining factor to
        what
        > the embryo *is*.


        One thing at least I know makes you sleep better at night, Michael-
        you have never been bothered by that pesky 'Which came first, the
        chicken or the egg?' quandary. To you, the egg is the chicken.

        >
        > > Again, by your logic, the entire IVF industry is one of
        > > institutionalized slaughter of innocents.
        >
        > I didn't make that judgement. I simply judged what I see in
        reality --
        > that is, what is the embryo. Is he a human being or not? He
        clearly is.
        > Is he a "person with rights", which is a philosophical rather than
        > scientific question. I see no valid philosophical reason for
        denying any
        > human being to be part of that category of "persons with rights."
        >
        > Now obviously that might make "the entire IVF industry one of
        > institutionalized slaughter of innocents", but I am calling the
        spade the
        > spade and then judging that situation based on that criteria.
        Would you
        > rather me judge the situation emotionally, by saying "since I don't
        want
        > to judge the IVF industry so harshly, I am going to lower my
        standards in
        > recognizing reality for what it is."? Isn't that putting the cart
        before
        > the horse?


        First off- humanity is not emotionless. There is nothing wrong with
        an emotional judgement, provided you recognize it as such. You, for
        instance, say you have not judged the situation emotionally, and yet
        in your last post tossed around such emotionally-charged words and
        phrases as 'sociopath' (a clearly inaccurate usage). You also agreed
        that you were 'shocked and appalled' by the IVF industry- that is not
        an emotional judgement?

        Now then- Some people might reach a surprising conclusion ('The IVF
        industry has killed as many people as Stalin') and pause for a
        moment, re-check their work, then try to discover which assumption
        produced such a marvelous result, and *perhaps* change their
        assumptions. Or they might conclude that their assumptions are
        valid, and incorporate a new conclusion into their world view. That
        is not putting the cart before the horse at all. That's how the
        process is supposed to work.

        I can only assume you have gone through this feedback loop on this
        issue.

        > I can see the implications now -- "I don't want to admit that
        Hitler was a
        > mass-murderer, so I'll lower my standards and declare that he must
        have
        > been right about the Jews after all."


        I avoid using Hitler and the Nazis in any debate that does not
        involve them directly- it's too emotionally charged.

        > > Surely by now the death
        > > count, from failed attempts and discarded waste, must rival what
        > > Stalin did to the Ukraine, if not all of Russia.
        >
        > Your point?
        >
        > Who are you trying to justify? Stalin, or the IVF industry?


        Why must I be trying to justify anything? I pointed out a logical
        conclusion to your position, and you agreed with that conclusion.
        The fact that I find that conclusion monstrous is neither here nor
        there.

        > > I hope my contempt for this viewpoint has come through clearly
        > > enough, Michael.
        >
        > I thought your goal was to make a reasonable argument, not to show
        > contempt. You emotional types are such cards.


        My goal, in this particular exchange, was to point out conclusions
        that I thought ludicrous and monstrous. You disagreed, and said you
        did not find the conclusions ludicrous or monstrous at all. That
        would seem to bring us to an impasse.

        Halftime, change ends- my position is that humanity is not defined
        simply by their DNA. I believe that humanity must possess the
        capacity- not simply the potential- for rational thought and choice,
        which I consider made up of three systems- the sense organs (for
        receiving signals), the nervous system (for transmitting those
        signals) and the brain (for interpreting those signals). Until those
        develop over the course of gestation, a fetus is not a human being,
        any more than a sacrifice is a way to see the sacred.

        'You emotional types'? Are you still denying your essential nature,
        Michael?


        Sawyer
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