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Re: AP™ Competing Models for Public Education

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  • jimmie sorrento
    HIya Robert How have you been my friend.. Your points are noted I personally know of one school in our district Niagara Falls High School which is owned by
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 1, 2005
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      HIya Robert How have you been my friend..
      Your points are noted I personally know of one school
      in our district Niagara Falls High School which is
      owned by corporate people...They built this brand new
      school and now it holds all kids in Niagara Falls and
      adjacent areas...they hold the lease for twenty
      years...I have mixed feelings about corporations
      getting involved with education..Call me somewhat
      naive but I feel that with the taxes we pay for
      educating our kids and the lotto moneys that are for
      education why can't we us build school systems
      better...I am open to comments believe me I have seen
      both sides to the equation it is ugly but it is not
      unfixable...
      Peace always
      taximnjim
      p.s.
      Vouchers are not the answer they are like band
      aids..Can't possibly take care of all students...no
      way Robert...
      --- Robert Somershoe <rtboot@...> wrote:

      > Oh my god. I was laughing so hard at this utter
      > drivel
      > that I almost fell off my seat. Seems to me that the
      > clown who authored this article gave himself two
      > goals. First, completely mischaracterize the people
      > who want to reform our present day education system.
      > We are not corporations seeking to robotize student.
      > We are parents who are sick and tired of seeing our
      > kids subject to a failed system. We have had it with
      > some schools (particularly urban) that only seem to
      > be
      > preparing kids to go to jail. Where kids are sent to
      > schools that are an absolute disgrace, and are run
      > by
      > the same people who send their kids to private
      > schools
      > while telling parents they can't have vouchers to do
      > better for their kids. Second, this knucklehead did
      > his best to couch his agenda into nice fuzzy words,
      > like "cultural wombs". lol. What a bunch of
      > horseshit.
      > This fools noone but the utterly gullible.
      > Ironically,
      > it is not the "reformers" who have the secret
      > agenda,
      > but this author and his ilk. They seek to dumb down
      > america with a bunch of left-wing agenda items and
      > politically correct psycho-babble. So they can
      > create
      > a whole bunch of happy little barely literate
      > socialists. Cultural womb. Sounds like something
      > they
      > use to churn out The Borg. The fact of the matter is
      > that, before the left took over our education
      > system,
      > we led the world going into the 60's. Ever since the
      > creation of the N.E.A., test scores went down every
      > year until recently. They are the ones who broke a
      > great system and now have the gall to slander us
      > parents who want our kids to have quality
      > educations.
      > Friggin' nauseating! It seems the author failed
      > miserably in both of his objectives. The fact that
      > his
      > ilk have to resort to this sort of nonsense tells
      > you
      > they are fresh out of ideas. And are stubbornly
      > clinging to their past, failed ideas. I guess it is
      > no
      > surprise that this is yet another gem from those
      > socialist nitwits at Common Dreams. lol. This author
      > would probably label home schooling parents as
      > something equally evil. Thankfully, a majority of
      > parents see through this. Hopefully, The democrats
      > will stop helping their donors at the NEA and school
      > unions and start giving a crap about the students,
      > for
      > a change. Cultural Wombs! ROFLMAO! All thoughts and
      > replies welcome. Peace All. Robert (aka-evil
      > corporate
      > minion who seeks to robotize our kids! lol)
      > --- ProudLiberal7@... wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Published on Saturday, February 26, 2005 by
      > > CommonDreams.org
      > > Competing Models for Public Education
      > > Which Model is Best?
      > >
      > > by Robert Freeman
      > >
      > > Cultures live by their models. They die by them
      > as
      > > well. Ulysses spawned
      > > ancient Greece. Horatio Alger defined
      > > rags-to-riches America. Rambo epitomized
      > > the 1980's.
      > > When it comes to education, our models are not
      > > people but, rather, ideas.
      > > Our seeming schizophrenia about education can be
      > > understood as the struggle
      > > between two different models, two competing sets
      > of
      > > ideas.
      > >
      > > One model views schools as a process of cultural
      > > birth, of bringing forth a
      > > new generation of children who will carry on -
      > > replicate - the culture. The
      > > other model views schools as a machine, an
      > > industrial process not unlike an
      > > assembly line. Its purpose is to mass produce
      > > "factors of production," well
      > > trained, obedient inputs that can be used in the
      > > manufacture of wealth.
      > >
      > > Not surprisingly, these competing models produce
      > > radically different
      > > prescriptions for how to improve our schools. The
      > > differences show up in everything
      > > from how to pay and retain good teachers to
      > > curriculum design, teaching
      > > methods, and discipline.
      > >
      > > In order to improve our schools, getting the model
      > > right will prove not
      > > nearly so important as getting the right model.
      > >
      > > Mass public education in America was conceived and
      > > designed as a production
      > > process. In the late 1800's, millions of farmers
      > and
      > > immigrants were arriving
      > > in American cities in search of their mythic
      > > riches. The challenge for the
      > > country's leaders was how to at once assimilate
      > > these teeming masses to both
      > > American culture and industrial society.
      > >
      > > The answer was simple: students would be moved
      > from
      > > station to station, hour
      > > by hour, year by year, and fitted with various
      > types
      > > of "knowledge." It was
      > > not unlike moving a car through a factory while
      > > bolting on engines, axles, and
      > > wheels, only, the "parts" were literacy,
      > vocational
      > > skills, and citizenship.
      > >
      > > In addition to its physical process, the factory
      > > model has an economic side
      > > as well: capitalism. Adam Smith, capitalism's
      > patron
      > > saint, was in awe of
      > > Isaac Newton's model of the universe as a big
      > > machine. He determined to apply
      > > Newton's idea to social life and so, in 1776,
      > wrote
      > > The Wealth of Nations, the
      > > book that ultimately became the Bible of
      > > capitalism.
      > >
      > > Where Newton's world was made up of planets in
      > > motion, Smith's was composed
      > > of consumers in motion. In each world, fundamental
      > > forces-gravity in one,
      > > greed in the other-held things together in a
      > > balanced, harmonious whole. But
      > > where Newton had centrifugal force to balance
      > > gravity, Smith had to invent a
      > > theological agency to moderate the destructive
      > > excesses of greed: The Invisible
      > > Hand.
      > >
      > > It is not an accident that calls to "reform"
      > > schools, to make them more
      > > "efficient," almost always come from business
      > > interests. They not only have long
      > > experience with the factory model but an abiding
      > > need for cost effective
      > > "inputs" as well. They also see education as a
      > > business opportunity in itself, a
      > > chance to cash in on the half trillion dollars a
      > > year spent on public
      > > education in America. They wouldn't be good
      > > capitalists if they didn't at least make
      > > a try for it.
      > >
      > > The other model of education - call it the
      > cultural
      > > womb - we can trace back
      > > to Plato's Academy and up through the universities
      > > of medieval Europe. It
      > > views the student not as a factor of production to
      > > be assembled and put to work,
      > > but as a human being to be nurtured and set to
      > > thinking. Its primary goal is
      > > not mass production of vocational competence but
      > > rather individual
      > > cultivation of human maturity.
      > >
      > > In the cultural womb model, society replicates
      > > itself by creating thoughtful
      > > human beings who will carry its "cultural DNA"
      > into
      > > succeeding generations.
      > > It is those thoughtful human beings who embody and
      > > therefore model society's
      > > values for those who come after them. This concept
      > > of education as cultural
      > > womb could not be more different from that of the
      > > school as a factory.
      > >
      > > Clearly, American education today is more factory
      > > than womb. But it is a
      > > towering irony that it was saved from becoming a
      > > completely de-humanizing
      > > process by the "factory workers" themselves: the
      > > teachers. In the beginning, they
      >
      === message truncated ===




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    • Robert Somershoe
      Yo Jimmy! How ya doin , man? Always good to hear from you. I hear what you are saying about corporations running schools. I can t say I am overly enthused
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 1, 2005
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        Yo Jimmy! How ya doin', man? Always good to hear from
        you. I hear what you are saying about corporations
        running schools. I can't say I am overly enthused
        about the idea myself. But I am even less inclined to
        give more control to the Federal Government either. I
        think there are some things that alot of entities can
        do to help our education system. But I think it comes
        down to this basic question. There seems to be three
        differing philosophies about education. Give more
        power to the the state/federal governments with more
        mandated spending and nationalization of the system.
        Give more power to big business thru corporate
        privatization initiatives. Or give more control to
        parents and communities by breaking the monopoly held
        by the "public education system" and providing voucher
        programs the districts that are in crisis. I think
        increased control by the feds has been shown to be a
        disaster. The jury is still out on schools being run
        by private corporations, but it still rubs me the
        wrong way. I say try the third alternative. The past
        proves that this is the successful method. We need to
        get back to that. What does this mean for the concept
        of public education? Nothing! If anything, it will
        improve that system for those most dependent on it.
        Remember, back when communities controlled education,
        it was still PUBLIC EDUCATION, right? You are right to
        say that vouchers are not "the answer". But I would
        submit that they are PART of the answer and dismissing
        them altogether would be detrimental to the reform
        effort. But any suggestions you might have would be
        welcome. Appreciate the give and take. BTW, anyone
        else wanna jump in on this? All thought and replies
        welcome. Peace all. Robert.


        --- jimmie sorrento <taximnjim@...> wrote:
        > HIya Robert How have you been my friend..
        > Your points are noted I personally know of one
        > school
        > in our district Niagara Falls High School which is
        > owned by corporate people...They built this brand
        > new
        > school and now it holds all kids in Niagara Falls
        > and
        > adjacent areas...they hold the lease for twenty
        > years...I have mixed feelings about corporations
        > getting involved with education..Call me somewhat
        > naive but I feel that with the taxes we pay for
        > educating our kids and the lotto moneys that are for
        > education why can't we us build school systems
        > better...I am open to comments believe me I have
        > seen
        > both sides to the equation it is ugly but it is not
        > unfixable...
        > Peace always
        > taximnjim
        > p.s.
        > Vouchers are not the answer they are like band
        > aids..Can't possibly take care of all students...no
        > way Robert...
        >


        --- Robert Somershoe <rtboot@...> wrote:
        > > Oh my god. I was laughing so hard at this utter
        > > drivel
        > > that I almost fell off my seat. Seems to me that
        > the
        > > clown who authored this article gave himself two
        > > goals. First, completely mischaracterize the
        > people
        > > who want to reform our present day education
        > system.
        > > We are not corporations seeking to robotize
        > student.
        > > We are parents who are sick and tired of seeing
        > our
        > > kids subject to a failed system. We have had it
        > with
        > > some schools (particularly urban) that only seem
        > to
        > > be
        > > preparing kids to go to jail. Where kids are sent
        > to
        > > schools that are an absolute disgrace, and are run
        > > by
        > > the same people who send their kids to private
        > > schools
        > > while telling parents they can't have vouchers to
        > do
        > > better for their kids. Second, this knucklehead
        > did
        > > his best to couch his agenda into nice fuzzy
        > words,
        > > like "cultural wombs". lol. What a bunch of
        > > horseshit.
        > > This fools noone but the utterly gullible.
        > > Ironically,
        > > it is not the "reformers" who have the secret
        > > agenda,
        > > but this author and his ilk. They seek to dumb
        > down
        > > america with a bunch of left-wing agenda items and
        > > politically correct psycho-babble. So they can
        > > create
        > > a whole bunch of happy little barely literate
        > > socialists. Cultural womb. Sounds like something
        > > they
        > > use to churn out The Borg. The fact of the matter
        > is
        > > that, before the left took over our education
        > > system,
        > > we led the world going into the 60's. Ever since
        > the
        > > creation of the N.E.A., test scores went down
        > every
        > > year until recently. They are the ones who broke a
        > > great system and now have the gall to slander us
        > > parents who want our kids to have quality
        > > educations.
        > > Friggin' nauseating! It seems the author failed
        > > miserably in both of his objectives. The fact that
        > > his
        > > ilk have to resort to this sort of nonsense tells
        > > you
        > > they are fresh out of ideas. And are stubbornly
        > > clinging to their past, failed ideas. I guess it
        > is
        > > no
        > > surprise that this is yet another gem from those
        > > socialist nitwits at Common Dreams. lol. This
        > author
        > > would probably label home schooling parents as
        > > something equally evil. Thankfully, a majority of
        > > parents see through this. Hopefully, The democrats
        > > will stop helping their donors at the NEA and
        > school
        > > unions and start giving a crap about the students,
        > > for
        > > a change. Cultural Wombs! ROFLMAO! All thoughts
        > and
        > > replies welcome. Peace All. Robert (aka-evil
        > > corporate
        > > minion who seeks to robotize our kids! lol)
        > > --- ProudLiberal7@... wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Published on Saturday, February 26, 2005 by
        > > > CommonDreams.org
        > > > Competing Models for Public Education
        > > > Which Model is Best?
        > > >
        > > > by Robert Freeman
        > > >
        > > > Cultures live by their models. They die by them
        > > as
        > > > well. Ulysses spawned
        > > > ancient Greece. Horatio Alger defined
        > > > rags-to-riches America. Rambo epitomized
        > > > the 1980's.
        > > > When it comes to education, our models are not
        > > > people but, rather, ideas.
        > > > Our seeming schizophrenia about education can
        > be
        > > > understood as the struggle
        > > > between two different models, two competing
        > sets
        > > of
        > > > ideas.
        > > >
        > > > One model views schools as a process of cultural
        > > > birth, of bringing forth a
        > > > new generation of children who will carry on -
        > > > replicate - the culture. The
        > > > other model views schools as a machine, an
        > > > industrial process not unlike an
        > > > assembly line. Its purpose is to mass produce
        > > > "factors of production," well
        > > > trained, obedient inputs that can be used in the
        > > > manufacture of wealth.
        > > >
        > > > Not surprisingly, these competing models produce
        > > > radically different
        > > > prescriptions for how to improve our schools.
        > The
        > > > differences show up in everything
        > > > from how to pay and retain good teachers to
        > > > curriculum design, teaching
        > > > methods, and discipline.
        > > >
        > > > In order to improve our schools, getting the
        > model
        > > > right will prove not
        > > > nearly so important as getting the right model.
        > > >
        > > > Mass public education in America was conceived
        > and
        > > > designed as a production
        > > > process. In the late 1800's, millions of farmers
        > > and
        > > > immigrants were arriving
        > > > in American cities in search of their mythic
        > > > riches. The challenge for the
        > > > country's leaders was how to at once assimilate
        > > > these teeming masses to both
        > > > American culture and industrial society.
        > > >
        > > > The answer was simple: students would be moved
        > > from
        > > > station to station, hour
        > > > by hour, year by year, and fitted with various
        > > types
        > > > of "knowledge." It was
        > > > not unlike moving a car through a factory while
        > > > bolting on engines, axles, and
        > > > wheels, only, the "parts" were literacy,
        > > vocational
        > > > skills, and citizenship.
        > > >
        > > > In addition to its physical process, the factory
        > > > model has an economic side
        > > > as well: capitalism. Adam Smith, capitalism's
        > > patron
        > > > saint, was in awe of
        > > > Isaac Newton's model of the universe as a big
        > > > machine. He determined to apply
        > > > Newton's idea to social life and so, in 1776,
        > > wrote
        > > > The Wealth of Nations, the
        > > > book that ultimately became the Bible of
        > > > capitalism.
        > > >
        > > > Where Newton's world was made up of planets in
        > > > motion, Smith's was composed
        > > > of consumers in motion. In each world,
        > fundamental
        > > > forces-gravity in one,
        > > > greed in the other-held things together in a
        > > > balanced, harmonious whole. But
        >
        === message truncated ===


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      • jimmie sorrento
        Robert So nice to hear from you...As always talking to you is like a breath of fresh air.. Now getting down to business..Vouchers we have something called
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Robert
          So nice to hear from you...As always talking to you is
          like a breath of fresh air..
          Now getting down to business..Vouchers we have
          something called special schools it works like this
          some of our schools are for gifted students...city
          honors some of our schools are for kids wanting to
          learn a trade...then some are for the arts leaning on
          art music and thespian work....We even have one school
          high school for maritime law....Studying how to
          comprehend the duties of captaining ones ship or
          boat....These schools are are part of our system...
          But so many students are allowed into these special
          schools not all can fit in...Vouchers are nice but
          with the volume of students seeking special needs and
          wants private education is considered the best but not
          many vouchers are available to many poor kids most on
          a very strict basis....
          LOok at the parent who can afford to send their
          offspring to private schools Do you really think for a
          new york moment they want their precious offspring
          learning next to a kid from the ghetto?
          Old ways die hard here same as in Philli...
          Right now our County government is in an uproar...The
          county Executive is a new and improved version of
          baptised republicanism....But the republicans have had
          it with him ...His old party the democrats hate him
          even more...He try ed to pass a red budget including a
          sales tax add on of one penny...we are paying now
          eight and a quarter percent another penny would of
          made us nine and a quarter percent...He has so much of
          his family and friends working for him most of the
          poor people getting pink slips are people that have
          been with the county for over fifteen years..
          His chauffeur alone makes 84 thousand bucks a year..I
          would gladly take him around for forty grand a
          year....Have someone work my taxi and go to Barbados
          for fun in the sun...
          Take care enjoy the snow your way we have been getting
          a bit here....Expected....MArch is coming in like a
          lion..Hopefully it goes via lamb sunshine and
          flowers....
          peace \
          taxi

          --- Robert Somershoe <rtboot@...> wrote:

          > Yo Jimmy! How ya doin', man? Always good to hear
          > from
          > you. I hear what you are saying about corporations
          > running schools. I can't say I am overly enthused
          > about the idea myself. But I am even less inclined
          > to
          > give more control to the Federal Government either.
          > I
          > think there are some things that alot of entities
          > can
          > do to help our education system. But I think it
          > comes
          > down to this basic question. There seems to be three
          > differing philosophies about education. Give more
          > power to the the state/federal governments with more
          > mandated spending and nationalization of the system.
          > Give more power to big business thru corporate
          > privatization initiatives. Or give more control to
          > parents and communities by breaking the monopoly
          > held
          > by the "public education system" and providing
          > voucher
          > programs the districts that are in crisis. I think
          > increased control by the feds has been shown to be a
          > disaster. The jury is still out on schools being run
          > by private corporations, but it still rubs me the
          > wrong way. I say try the third alternative. The past
          > proves that this is the successful method. We need
          > to
          > get back to that. What does this mean for the
          > concept
          > of public education? Nothing! If anything, it will
          > improve that system for those most dependent on it.
          > Remember, back when communities controlled
          > education,
          > it was still PUBLIC EDUCATION, right? You are right
          > to
          > say that vouchers are not "the answer". But I would
          > submit that they are PART of the answer and
          > dismissing
          > them altogether would be detrimental to the reform
          > effort. But any suggestions you might have would be
          > welcome. Appreciate the give and take. BTW, anyone
          > else wanna jump in on this? All thought and replies
          > welcome. Peace all. Robert.
          >
          >
          > --- jimmie sorrento <taximnjim@...> wrote:
          > > HIya Robert How have you been my friend..
          > > Your points are noted I personally know of one
          > > school
          > > in our district Niagara Falls High School which is
          > > owned by corporate people...They built this brand
          > > new
          > > school and now it holds all kids in Niagara Falls
          > > and
          > > adjacent areas...they hold the lease for twenty
          > > years...I have mixed feelings about corporations
          > > getting involved with education..Call me somewhat
          > > naive but I feel that with the taxes we pay for
          > > educating our kids and the lotto moneys that are
          > for
          > > education why can't we us build school systems
          > > better...I am open to comments believe me I have
          > > seen
          > > both sides to the equation it is ugly but it is
          > not
          > > unfixable...
          > > Peace always
          > > taximnjim
          > > p.s.
          > > Vouchers are not the answer they are like band
          > > aids..Can't possibly take care of all
          > students...no
          > > way Robert...
          > >
          >
          >
          > --- Robert Somershoe <rtboot@...> wrote:
          > > > Oh my god. I was laughing so hard at this utter
          > > > drivel
          > > > that I almost fell off my seat. Seems to me that
          > > the
          > > > clown who authored this article gave himself two
          > > > goals. First, completely mischaracterize the
          > > people
          > > > who want to reform our present day education
          > > system.
          > > > We are not corporations seeking to robotize
          > > student.
          > > > We are parents who are sick and tired of seeing
          > > our
          > > > kids subject to a failed system. We have had it
          > > with
          > > > some schools (particularly urban) that only seem
          > > to
          > > > be
          > > > preparing kids to go to jail. Where kids are
          > sent
          > > to
          > > > schools that are an absolute disgrace, and are
          > run
          > > > by
          > > > the same people who send their kids to private
          > > > schools
          > > > while telling parents they can't have vouchers
          > to
          > > do
          > > > better for their kids. Second, this knucklehead
          > > did
          > > > his best to couch his agenda into nice fuzzy
          > > words,
          > > > like "cultural wombs". lol. What a bunch of
          > > > horseshit.
          > > > This fools noone but the utterly gullible.
          > > > Ironically,
          > > > it is not the "reformers" who have the secret
          > > > agenda,
          > > > but this author and his ilk. They seek to dumb
          > > down
          > > > america with a bunch of left-wing agenda items
          > and
          > > > politically correct psycho-babble. So they can
          > > > create
          > > > a whole bunch of happy little barely literate
          > > > socialists. Cultural womb. Sounds like something
          > > > they
          > > > use to churn out The Borg. The fact of the
          > matter
          > > is
          > > > that, before the left took over our education
          > > > system,
          > > > we led the world going into the 60's. Ever since
          > > the
          > > > creation of the N.E.A., test scores went down
          > > every
          > > > year until recently. They are the ones who broke
          > a
          > > > great system and now have the gall to slander us
          > > > parents who want our kids to have quality
          > > > educations.
          > > > Friggin' nauseating! It seems the author failed
          > > > miserably in both of his objectives. The fact
          > that
          > > > his
          > > > ilk have to resort to this sort of nonsense
          > tells
          > > > you
          > > > they are fresh out of ideas. And are stubbornly
          > > > clinging to their past, failed ideas. I guess it
          > > is
          > > > no
          > > > surprise that this is yet another gem from those
          > > > socialist nitwits at Common Dreams. lol. This
          > > author
          > > > would probably label home schooling parents as
          > > > something equally evil. Thankfully, a majority
          > of
          > > > parents see through this. Hopefully, The
          > democrats
          > > > will stop helping their donors at the NEA and
          > > school
          > > > unions and start giving a crap about the
          > students,
          > > > for
          > > > a change. Cultural Wombs! ROFLMAO! All thoughts
          > > and
          > > > replies welcome. Peace All. Robert (aka-evil
          > > > corporate
          > > > minion who seeks to robotize our kids! lol)
          > > > --- ProudLiberal7@... wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Published on Saturday, February 26, 2005 by
          > > > > CommonDreams.org
          > > > > Competing Models for Public Education
          > > > > Which Model is Best?
          > > > >
          > > > > by Robert Freeman
          > > > >
          > > > > Cultures live by their models. They die by
          > them
          > > > as
          > > > > well. Ulysses spawned
          > > > > ancient Greece. Horatio Alger defined
          > > > > rags-to-riches America. Rambo epitomized
          > > > > the 1980's.
          > > > > When it comes to education, our models are
          > not
          > > > > people but, rather, ideas.
          > > > > Our seeming schizophrenia about education can
          > > be
          > > > > understood as the struggle
          > > > > between two different models, two competing
          > > sets
          > > > of
          > > > > ideas.
          > > > >
          > > > > One model views schools as a process of
          > cultural
          > > > > birth, of bringing forth a
          >
          === message truncated ===


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