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Re: [All-E] Hybrid Buses Roll On

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  • John Grant
    Give us some details,
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 4, 2005
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      Give us some details,

      esbuck@... wrote:
      Why don't they go diesel pneumatic, instead of diesel electric?  Sheer stupidity?


    • Free Energy
      that is exactly what i said! because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 6, 2005
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        that is exactly what i said!
         because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs high!

        John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
        Traction motors for locomotives have been built in larger and larger numbers over the past 40 years but the price has not gone down.

        Free Energy wrote:
        if there was a mass production of the traction motors, then the price would drop a lot!

        OrbservingHuman@... wrote:
         
        Hybrid Buses Roll On 
        By Marcus Wohlsen, The Courier-Journal, mwohlsen@... 
         
        Diesel-electrics emit less pollution 

        They are quieter.
         
        They get better mileage.
         
        They produce few harmful emissions.
         
        And they run like a dream. 

        The five hybrid-electric buses that have been on Louisville streets since last fall have so much going for them that the Transit Authority of River City has requested money for 10 more. 

        There is one catch, however.
         
        The diesel-electric hybrids cost more to buy than they will save on fuel. 

        So until the price of hybrid-electric technology drops, Louisville will continue to have more diesel buses than hybrids, said Mike Kuzmich, TARC director of marketing and planning. 

        Each hybrid averages 5.5 miles per gallon of fuel, compared with an average of 4.2 miles per gallon for the all-diesel buses that make up most of the 240-bus fleet, according to TARC figures. 

        But a hybrid costs $200,000 more than a $275,000 all-diesel bus.
         
        "I don't think that we're going to recoup that difference," Kuzmich said.

        During the 12 years they are expected to stay on the road, he said, the hybrids will save $9,440 a year each on fuel compared with diesel, for an overall savings of about $113,000 per bus. 

        Even so, Kuzmich said while delivering a status report late last month, the hybrid-electric buses have shown their worth in other ways since their September debut. 

        Chiefly, they produce fewer emissions than their all-diesel counterparts.

        In a statement, Louisville Metro Air Pollution Control District director Art Williams called the hybrid-electric buses a "forward-looking step" that,
        coupled with TARC's switch to low-sulfur fuel, could go a long way toward improving Louisville's air quality. 

        TARC also reports that since going on the road, the hybrid-electric buses have needed no maintenance, beyond a regular oil change every 3,000 miles. 

        To date, each has put about 30,000 miles on the odometer. 

        Twenty-year TARC veteran Sharon Oliver, behind the wheel on the St. Regis Park route last week, said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than the diesel buses. 

        "It's easier to drive, so it's easier to stay on schedule," she said. 

        Passenger Debbie Smith said she approved of spending more money on buses to cut down on air pollution. 

        "It matters a lot to me," said Smith, who rides TARC to and from work on weekdays. 

        Each bus uses two electric motors built into the transmissions to get up to speed, then blends power from the electric motors with the diesel engine to keep the bus moving and charge its batteries. 

        The buses also convert the energy from braking into electrical power for the batteries, a process called "regenerative braking." 

        That could lead to longer brake life on the hybrid-electric buses because the vehicle slows as soon as the driver lets off the gas. 

        Kuzmich said TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup, R-3rd District, for $4.7 million in Federal Transit Authority money to buy 10 hybrid-electric buses. 

        He said he hopes to hear about the request by the end of the year. 

        A similar grant covered 80 percent of the cost of purchasing the first five hybrids. 

        The remaining 20 percent came from local funds.
         
         
         
        photos:
        TARC driver Sharon Oliver said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than diesel buses. They also produce fewer emissions and get better mileage, but they cost far more than conventional buses. (PHOTOS BY ARZA BARNETT, THE COURIER-JOURNAL)

        TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup for $4.7 million in federal money to buy 10 more hybridelectric buses. TARC has five hybrids in its fleet now.
         
         
         
         
        06 03 2005
        2004 The Courier-Journal


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      • John Grant
        ALL of the railroads in the US have locomotives that use traction motors ( 4 to 6 motors per locomotive ). There are thousands of locomotives in service at
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 6, 2005
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          ALL of the railroads in the US have locomotives that use traction motors
          ( 4 to 6 motors per locomotive ).  There are thousands of locomotives in service at the present time.

          There is a mass market for locomotives and the traction motors are not hand built and custom designed.

          Free Energy wrote:
          that is exactly what i said!
           because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs high!

          John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
          Traction motors for locomotives have been built in larger and larger numbers over the past 40 years but the price has not gone down.

          Free Energy wrote:
          if there was a mass production of the traction motors, then the price would drop a lot!

          OrbservingHuman@... wrote:
           
          Hybrid Buses Roll On 
          By Marcus Wohlsen, The Courier-Journal, mwohlsen@... 
           
          Diesel-electrics emit less pollution 

          They are quieter.
           
          They get better mileage.
           
          They produce few harmful emissions.
           
          And they run like a dream. 

          The five hybrid-electric buses that have been on Louisville streets since last fall have so much going for them that the Transit Authority of River City has requested money for 10 more. 

          There is one catch, however.
           
          The diesel-electric hybrids cost more to buy than they will save on fuel. 

          So until the price of hybrid-electric technology drops, Louisville will continue to have more diesel buses than hybrids, said Mike Kuzmich, TARC director of marketing and planning. 

          Each hybrid averages 5.5 miles per gallon of fuel, compared with an average of 4.2 miles per gallon for the all-diesel buses that make up most of the 240-bus fleet, according to TARC figures. 

          But a hybrid costs $200,000 more than a $275,000 all-diesel bus.
           
          "I don't think that we're going to recoup that difference," Kuzmich said.

          During the 12 years they are expected to stay on the road, he said, the hybrids will save $9,440 a year each on fuel compared with diesel, for an overall savings of about $113,000 per bus. 

          Even so, Kuzmich said while delivering a status report late last month, the hybrid-electric buses have shown their worth in other ways since their September debut. 

          Chiefly, they produce fewer emissions than their all-diesel counterparts.

          In a statement, Louisville Metro Air Pollution Control District director Art Williams called the hybrid-electric buses a "forward-looking step" that,
          coupled with TARC's switch to low-sulfur fuel, could go a long way toward improving Louisville's air quality. 

          TARC also reports that since going on the road, the hybrid-electric buses have needed no maintenance, beyond a regular oil change every 3,000 miles. 

          To date, each has put about 30,000 miles on the odometer. 

          Twenty-year TARC veteran Sharon Oliver, behind the wheel on the St. Regis Park route last week, said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than the diesel buses. 

          "It's easier to drive, so it's easier to stay on schedule," she said. 

          Passenger Debbie Smith said she approved of spending more money on buses to cut down on air pollution. 

          "It matters a lot to me," said Smith, who rides TARC to and from work on weekdays. 

          Each bus uses two electric motors built into the transmissions to get up to speed, then blends power from the electric motors with the diesel engine to keep the bus moving and charge its batteries. 

          The buses also convert the energy from braking into electrical power for the batteries, a process called "regenerative braking." 

          That could lead to longer brake life on the hybrid-electric buses because the vehicle slows as soon as the driver lets off the gas. 

          Kuzmich said TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup, R-3rd District, for $4.7 million in Federal Transit Authority money to buy 10 hybrid-electric buses. 

          He said he hopes to hear about the request by the end of the year. 

          A similar grant covered 80 percent of the cost of purchasing the first five hybrids. 

          The remaining 20 percent came from local funds.
           
           
           
          photos:
          TARC driver Sharon Oliver said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than diesel buses. They also produce fewer emissions and get better mileage, but they cost far more than conventional buses. (PHOTOS BY ARZA BARNETT, THE COURIER-JOURNAL)

          TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup for $4.7 million in federal money to buy 10 more hybridelectric buses. TARC has five hybrids in its fleet now.
           
           
           
           
          06 03 2005
          2004 The Courier-Journal


          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/All-Energy


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        • John Grant
          It would be useful if you told us what you mean by mass market ? How many items per year? Are 747s mass produced? Are Kenworth trucks mass produced? Are
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 6, 2005
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            It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
            How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

            Free Energy wrote:
            that is exactly what i said!
             because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs high!

            John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
            Traction motors for locomotives have been built in larger and larger numbers over the past 40 years but the price has not gone down.

            Free Energy wrote:
            if there was a mass production of the traction motors, then the price would drop a lot!

            OrbservingHuman@... wrote:
             
            Hybrid Buses Roll On 
            By Marcus Wohlsen, The Courier-Journal, mwohlsen@... 
             
            Diesel-electrics emit less pollution 

            They are quieter.
             
            They get better mileage.
             
            They produce few harmful emissions.
             
            And they run like a dream. 

            The five hybrid-electric buses that have been on Louisville streets since last fall have so much going for them that the Transit Authority of River City has requested money for 10 more. 

            There is one catch, however.
             
            The diesel-electric hybrids cost more to buy than they will save on fuel. 

            So until the price of hybrid-electric technology drops, Louisville will continue to have more diesel buses than hybrids, said Mike Kuzmich, TARC director of marketing and planning. 

            Each hybrid averages 5.5 miles per gallon of fuel, compared with an average of 4.2 miles per gallon for the all-diesel buses that make up most of the 240-bus fleet, according to TARC figures. 

            But a hybrid costs $200,000 more than a $275,000 all-diesel bus.
             
            "I don't think that we're going to recoup that difference," Kuzmich said.

            During the 12 years they are expected to stay on the road, he said, the hybrids will save $9,440 a year each on fuel compared with diesel, for an overall savings of about $113,000 per bus. 

            Even so, Kuzmich said while delivering a status report late last month, the hybrid-electric buses have shown their worth in other ways since their September debut. 

            Chiefly, they produce fewer emissions than their all-diesel counterparts.

            In a statement, Louisville Metro Air Pollution Control District director Art Williams called the hybrid-electric buses a "forward-looking step" that,
            coupled with TARC's switch to low-sulfur fuel, could go a long way toward improving Louisville's air quality. 

            TARC also reports that since going on the road, the hybrid-electric buses have needed no maintenance, beyond a regular oil change every 3,000 miles. 

            To date, each has put about 30,000 miles on the odometer. 

            Twenty-year TARC veteran Sharon Oliver, behind the wheel on the St. Regis Park route last week, said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than the diesel buses. 

            "It's easier to drive, so it's easier to stay on schedule," she said. 

            Passenger Debbie Smith said she approved of spending more money on buses to cut down on air pollution. 

            "It matters a lot to me," said Smith, who rides TARC to and from work on weekdays. 

            Each bus uses two electric motors built into the transmissions to get up to speed, then blends power from the electric motors with the diesel engine to keep the bus moving and charge its batteries. 

            The buses also convert the energy from braking into electrical power for the batteries, a process called "regenerative braking." 

            That could lead to longer brake life on the hybrid-electric buses because the vehicle slows as soon as the driver lets off the gas. 

            Kuzmich said TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup, R-3rd District, for $4.7 million in Federal Transit Authority money to buy 10 hybrid-electric buses. 

            He said he hopes to hear about the request by the end of the year. 

            A similar grant covered 80 percent of the cost of purchasing the first five hybrids. 

            The remaining 20 percent came from local funds.
             
             
             
            photos:
            TARC driver Sharon Oliver said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than diesel buses. They also produce fewer emissions and get better mileage, but they cost far more than conventional buses. (PHOTOS BY ARZA BARNETT, THE COURIER-JOURNAL)

            TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup for $4.7 million in federal money to buy 10 more hybridelectric buses. TARC has five hybrids in its fleet now.
             
             
             
             
            06 03 2005
            2004 The Courier-Journal


            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/All-Energy


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          • Free Energy
            those are mant sizes too lrge for a bus. John Grant wrote:ALL of the railroads in the US have locomotives that use traction motors ( 4
            Message 5 of 19 , Jun 7, 2005
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              those are mant sizes too lrge for a bus.

              John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
              ALL of the railroads in the US have locomotives that use traction motors
              ( 4 to 6 motors per locomotive ).  There are thousands of locomotives in service at the present time.

              There is a mass market for locomotives and the traction motors are not hand built and custom designed.

              Free Energy wrote:
              that is exactly what i said!
               because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs high!

              John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
              Traction motors for locomotives have been built in larger and larger numbers over the past 40 years but the price has not gone down.

              Free Energy wrote:
              if there was a mass production of the traction motors, then the price would drop a lot!

              OrbservingHuman@... wrote:
               
              Hybrid Buses Roll On 
              By Marcus Wohlsen, The Courier-Journal, mwohlsen@... 
               
              Diesel-electrics emit less pollution 

              They are quieter.
               
              They get better mileage.
               
              They produce few harmful emissions.
               
              And they run like a dream. 

              The five hybrid-electric buses that have been on Louisville streets since last fall have so much going for them that the Transit Authority of River City has requested money for 10 more. 

              There is one catch, however.
               
              The diesel-electric hybrids cost more to buy than they will save on fuel. 

              So until the price of hybrid-electric technology drops, Louisville will continue to have more diesel buses than hybrids, said Mike Kuzmich, TARC director of marketing and planning. 

              Each hybrid averages 5.5 miles per gallon of fuel, compared with an average of 4.2 miles per gallon for the all-diesel buses that make up most of the 240-bus fleet, according to TARC figures. 

              But a hybrid costs $200,000 more than a $275,000 all-diesel bus.
               
              "I don't think that we're going to recoup that difference," Kuzmich said.

              During the 12 years they are expected to stay on the road, he said, the hybrids will save $9,440 a year each on fuel compared with diesel, for an overall savings of about $113,000 per bus. 

              Even so, Kuzmich said while delivering a status report late last month, the hybrid-electric buses have shown their worth in other ways since their September debut. 

              Chiefly, they produce fewer emissions than their all-diesel counterparts.

              In a statement, Louisville Metro Air Pollution Control District director Art Williams called the hybrid-electric buses a "forward-looking step" that,
              coupled with TARC's switch to low-sulfur fuel, could go a long way toward improving Louisville's air quality. 

              TARC also reports that since going on the road, the hybrid-electric buses have needed no maintenance, beyond a regular oil change every 3,000 miles. 

              To date, each has put about 30,000 miles on the odometer. 

              Twenty-year TARC veteran Sharon Oliver, behind the wheel on the St. Regis Park route last week, said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than the diesel buses. 

              "It's easier to drive, so it's easier to stay on schedule," she said. 

              Passenger Debbie Smith said she approved of spending more money on buses to cut down on air pollution. 

              "It matters a lot to me," said Smith, who rides TARC to and from work on weekdays. 

              Each bus uses two electric motors built into the transmissions to get up to speed, then blends power from the electric motors with the diesel engine to keep the bus moving and charge its batteries. 

              The buses also convert the energy from braking into electrical power for the batteries, a process called "regenerative braking." 

              That could lead to longer brake life on the hybrid-electric buses because the vehicle slows as soon as the driver lets off the gas. 

              Kuzmich said TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup, R-3rd District, for $4.7 million in Federal Transit Authority money to buy 10 hybrid-electric buses. 

              He said he hopes to hear about the request by the end of the year. 

              A similar grant covered 80 percent of the cost of purchasing the first five hybrids. 

              The remaining 20 percent came from local funds.
               
               
               
              photos:
              TARC driver Sharon Oliver said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than diesel buses. They also produce fewer emissions and get better mileage, but they cost far more than conventional buses. (PHOTOS BY ARZA BARNETT, THE COURIER-JOURNAL)

              TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup for $4.7 million in federal money to buy 10 more hybridelectric buses. TARC has five hybrids in its fleet now.
               
               
               
               
              06 03 2005
              2004 The Courier-Journal


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            • Free Energy
              are buses mass produced? John Grant wrote:It would be useful if you told us what you mean by mass market ? How many items per year?
              Message 6 of 19 , Jun 7, 2005
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                are buses mass produced?

                John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                Free Energy wrote:
                that is exactly what i said!
                 because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs high!

                John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                Traction motors for locomotives have been built in larger and larger numbers over the past 40 years but the price has not gone down.

                Free Energy wrote:
                if there was a mass production of the traction motors, then the price would drop a lot!

                OrbservingHuman@... wrote:
                 
                Hybrid Buses Roll On 
                By Marcus Wohlsen, The Courier-Journal, mwohlsen@... 
                 
                Diesel-electrics emit less pollution 

                They are quieter.
                 
                They get better mileage.
                 
                They produce few harmful emissions.
                 
                And they run like a dream. 

                The five hybrid-electric buses that have been on Louisville streets since last fall have so much going for them that the Transit Authority of River City has requested money for 10 more. 

                There is one catch, however.
                 
                The diesel-electric hybrids cost more to buy than they will save on fuel. 

                So until the price of hybrid-electric technology drops, Louisville will continue to have more diesel buses than hybrids, said Mike Kuzmich, TARC director of marketing and planning. 

                Each hybrid averages 5.5 miles per gallon of fuel, compared with an average of 4.2 miles per gallon for the all-diesel buses that make up most of the 240-bus fleet, according to TARC figures. 

                But a hybrid costs $200,000 more than a $275,000 all-diesel bus.
                 
                "I don't think that we're going to recoup that difference," Kuzmich said.

                During the 12 years they are expected to stay on the road, he said, the hybrids will save $9,440 a year each on fuel compared with diesel, for an overall savings of about $113,000 per bus. 

                Even so, Kuzmich said while delivering a status report late last month, the hybrid-electric buses have shown their worth in other ways since their September debut. 

                Chiefly, they produce fewer emissions than their all-diesel counterparts.

                In a statement, Louisville Metro Air Pollution Control District director Art Williams called the hybrid-electric buses a "forward-looking step" that,
                coupled with TARC's switch to low-sulfur fuel, could go a long way toward improving Louisville's air quality. 

                TARC also reports that since going on the road, the hybrid-electric buses have needed no maintenance, beyond a regular oil change every 3,000 miles. 

                To date, each has put about 30,000 miles on the odometer. 

                Twenty-year TARC veteran Sharon Oliver, behind the wheel on the St. Regis Park route last week, said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than the diesel buses. 

                "It's easier to drive, so it's easier to stay on schedule," she said. 

                Passenger Debbie Smith said she approved of spending more money on buses to cut down on air pollution. 

                "It matters a lot to me," said Smith, who rides TARC to and from work on weekdays. 

                Each bus uses two electric motors built into the transmissions to get up to speed, then blends power from the electric motors with the diesel engine to keep the bus moving and charge its batteries. 

                The buses also convert the energy from braking into electrical power for the batteries, a process called "regenerative braking." 

                That could lead to longer brake life on the hybrid-electric buses because the vehicle slows as soon as the driver lets off the gas. 

                Kuzmich said TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup, R-3rd District, for $4.7 million in Federal Transit Authority money to buy 10 hybrid-electric buses. 

                He said he hopes to hear about the request by the end of the year. 

                A similar grant covered 80 percent of the cost of purchasing the first five hybrids. 

                The remaining 20 percent came from local funds.
                 
                 
                 
                photos:
                TARC driver Sharon Oliver said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than diesel buses. They also produce fewer emissions and get better mileage, but they cost far more than conventional buses. (PHOTOS BY ARZA BARNETT, THE COURIER-JOURNAL)

                TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup for $4.7 million in federal money to buy 10 more hybridelectric buses. TARC has five hybrids in its fleet now.
                 
                 
                 
                 
                06 03 2005
                2004 The Courier-Journal


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              • John Grant
                Some are 100 horsepower. About the right size for a bus. These are not hand built and custom made. And there are lots of 25 and 50 horsepower motors being
                Message 7 of 19 , Jun 7, 2005
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                  Some are 100 horsepower.  About the right size for a bus.  These are not hand built and custom made.

                  And there are lots of 25 and 50 horsepower motors being made everyday.  These are stock items at a motor makers warehouse.

                  Free Energy wrote:
                  those are mant sizes too lrge for a bus.

                  John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                  ALL of the railroads in the US have locomotives that use traction motors
                  ( 4 to 6 motors per locomotive ).  There are thousands of locomotives in service at the present time.

                  There is a mass market for locomotives and the traction motors are not hand built and custom designed.

                  Free Energy wrote:
                  that is exactly what i said!
                   because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs high!

                  John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                  Traction motors for locomotives have been built in larger and larger numbers over the past 40 years but the price has not gone down.

                  Free Energy wrote:
                  if there was a mass production of the traction motors, then the price would drop a lot!


              • John Grant
                I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by mass market ? How many items per year? Are 747s mass produced? Are
                Message 8 of 19 , Jun 7, 2005
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                  I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                  Look up the number of buses that are made each year in the US and tell us if that number qualifies as "mass produced"?

                  Free Energy wrote:
                  are buses mass produced?

                  John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                  It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                  Free Energy wrote:
                  that is exactly what i said!
                   because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs high!

                  John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                  Traction motors for locomotives have been built in larger and larger numbers over the past 40 years but the price has not gone down.

                  Free Energy wrote:
                  if there was a mass production of the traction motors, then the price would drop a lot!

                  OrbservingHuman@... wrote:
                   
                  Hybrid Buses Roll On 
                  By Marcus Wohlsen, The Courier-Journal, mwohlsen@... 
                   
                  Diesel-electrics emit less pollution 

                  They are quieter.
                   
                  They get better mileage.
                   
                  They produce few harmful emissions.
                   
                  And they run like a dream. 

                  The five hybrid-electric buses that have been on Louisville streets since last fall have so much going for them that the Transit Authority of River City has requested money for 10 more. 

                  There is one catch, however.
                   
                  The diesel-electric hybrids cost more to buy than they will save on fuel. 

                  So until the price of hybrid-electric technology drops, Louisville will continue to have more diesel buses than hybrids, said Mike Kuzmich, TARC director of marketing and planning. 

                  Each hybrid averages 5.5 miles per gallon of fuel, compared with an average of 4.2 miles per gallon for the all-diesel buses that make up most of the 240-bus fleet, according to TARC figures. 

                  But a hybrid costs $200,000 more than a $275,000 all-diesel bus.
                   
                  "I don't think that we're going to recoup that difference," Kuzmich said.

                  During the 12 years they are expected to stay on the road, he said, the hybrids will save $9,440 a year each on fuel compared with diesel, for an overall savings of about $113,000 per bus. 

                  Even so, Kuzmich said while delivering a status report late last month, the hybrid-electric buses have shown their worth in other ways since their September debut. 

                  Chiefly, they produce fewer emissions than their all-diesel counterparts.

                  In a statement, Louisville Metro Air Pollution Control District director Art Williams called the hybrid-electric buses a "forward-looking step" that,
                  coupled with TARC's switch to low-sulfur fuel, could go a long way toward improving Louisville's air quality. 

                  TARC also reports that since going on the road, the hybrid-electric buses have needed no maintenance, beyond a regular oil change every 3,000 miles. 

                  To date, each has put about 30,000 miles on the odometer. 

                  Twenty-year TARC veteran Sharon Oliver, behind the wheel on the St. Regis Park route last week, said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than the diesel buses. 

                  "It's easier to drive, so it's easier to stay on schedule," she said. 

                  Passenger Debbie Smith said she approved of spending more money on buses to cut down on air pollution. 

                  "It matters a lot to me," said Smith, who rides TARC to and from work on weekdays. 

                  Each bus uses two electric motors built into the transmissions to get up to speed, then blends power from the electric motors with the diesel engine to keep the bus moving and charge its batteries. 

                  The buses also convert the energy from braking into electrical power for the batteries, a process called "regenerative braking." 

                  That could lead to longer brake life on the hybrid-electric buses because the vehicle slows as soon as the driver lets off the gas. 

                  Kuzmich said TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup, R-3rd District, for $4.7 million in Federal Transit Authority money to buy 10 hybrid-electric buses. 

                  He said he hopes to hear about the request by the end of the year. 

                  A similar grant covered 80 percent of the cost of purchasing the first five hybrids. 

                  The remaining 20 percent came from local funds.
                   
                   
                   
                  photos:
                  TARC driver Sharon Oliver said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than diesel buses. They also produce fewer emissions and get better mileage, but they cost far more than conventional buses. (PHOTOS BY ARZA BARNETT, THE COURIER-JOURNAL)

                  TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup for $4.7 million in federal money to buy 10 more hybridelectric buses. TARC has five hybrids in its fleet now.
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  06 03 2005
                  2004 The Courier-Journal


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                • Free Energy
                  you look it up John Grant wrote:I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by mass market ?
                  Message 9 of 19 , Jun 7, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    you look it up

                    John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                    I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                    Look up the number of buses that are made each year in the US and tell us if that number qualifies as "mass produced"?

                    Free Energy wrote:
                    are buses mass produced?

                    John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                    It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                    How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                    Free Energy wrote:
                    that is exactly what i said!
                     because with no mass market, there is no mass production, and each one is hand-built and custom edesigned, thus keeping costs high!

                    John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                    Traction motors for locomotives have been built in larger and larger numbers over the past 40 years but the price has not gone down.

                    Free Energy wrote:
                    if there was a mass production of the traction motors, then the price would drop a lot!

                    OrbservingHuman@... wrote:
                     
                    Hybrid Buses Roll On 
                    By Marcus Wohlsen, The Courier-Journal, mwohlsen@... 
                     
                    Diesel-electrics emit less pollution 

                    They are quieter.
                     
                    They get better mileage.
                     
                    They produce few harmful emissions.
                     
                    And they run like a dream. 

                    The five hybrid-electric buses that have been on Louisville streets since last fall have so much going for them that the Transit Authority of River City has requested money for 10 more. 

                    There is one catch, however.
                     
                    The diesel-electric hybrids cost more to buy than they will save on fuel. 

                    So until the price of hybrid-electric technology drops, Louisville will continue to have more diesel buses than hybrids, said Mike Kuzmich, TARC director of marketing and planning. 

                    Each hybrid averages 5.5 miles per gallon of fuel, compared with an average of 4.2 miles per gallon for the all-diesel buses that make up most of the 240-bus fleet, according to TARC figures. 

                    But a hybrid costs $200,000 more than a $275,000 all-diesel bus.
                     
                    "I don't think that we're going to recoup that difference," Kuzmich said.

                    During the 12 years they are expected to stay on the road, he said, the hybrids will save $9,440 a year each on fuel compared with diesel, for an overall savings of about $113,000 per bus. 

                    Even so, Kuzmich said while delivering a status report late last month, the hybrid-electric buses have shown their worth in other ways since their September debut. 

                    Chiefly, they produce fewer emissions than their all-diesel counterparts.

                    In a statement, Louisville Metro Air Pollution Control District director Art Williams called the hybrid-electric buses a "forward-looking step" that,
                    coupled with TARC's switch to low-sulfur fuel, could go a long way toward improving Louisville's air quality. 

                    TARC also reports that since going on the road, the hybrid-electric buses have needed no maintenance, beyond a regular oil change every 3,000 miles. 

                    To date, each has put about 30,000 miles on the odometer. 

                    Twenty-year TARC veteran Sharon Oliver, behind the wheel on the St. Regis Park route last week, said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than the diesel buses. 

                    "It's easier to drive, so it's easier to stay on schedule," she said. 

                    Passenger Debbie Smith said she approved of spending more money on buses to cut down on air pollution. 

                    "It matters a lot to me," said Smith, who rides TARC to and from work on weekdays. 

                    Each bus uses two electric motors built into the transmissions to get up to speed, then blends power from the electric motors with the diesel engine to keep the bus moving and charge its batteries. 

                    The buses also convert the energy from braking into electrical power for the batteries, a process called "regenerative braking." 

                    That could lead to longer brake life on the hybrid-electric buses because the vehicle slows as soon as the driver lets off the gas. 

                    Kuzmich said TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup, R-3rd District, for $4.7 million in Federal Transit Authority money to buy 10 hybrid-electric buses. 

                    He said he hopes to hear about the request by the end of the year. 

                    A similar grant covered 80 percent of the cost of purchasing the first five hybrids. 

                    The remaining 20 percent came from local funds.
                     
                     
                     
                    photos:
                    TARC driver Sharon Oliver said the hybrid-electrics offer a smoother ride than diesel buses. They also produce fewer emissions and get better mileage, but they cost far more than conventional buses. (PHOTOS BY ARZA BARNETT, THE COURIER-JOURNAL)

                    TARC has put in a grant request through the office of U.S. Rep. Anne Northup for $4.7 million in federal money to buy 10 more hybridelectric buses. TARC has five hybrids in its fleet now.
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    06 03 2005
                    2004 The Courier-Journal


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                  • John Grant
                    It is very clear that you know nothing about production so you cannot determine what qualifies as mass production. When I give you an example of large
                    Message 10 of 19 , Jun 7, 2005
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                      It is very clear that you know nothing about production so you cannot determine what qualifies as mass production.

                      When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                      Free Energy wrote:
                      you look it up

                      John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                      I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                      Look up the number of buses that are made each year in the US and tell us if that number qualifies as "mass produced"?

                      Free Energy wrote:
                      are buses mass produced?

                      John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                      It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                      How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?



                    • Free Energy
                      its very clear that your so intellectually lazy that you prefer to become confrontational on the cheap, and just demand that others do your homework for free.
                      Message 11 of 19 , Jun 7, 2005
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                        its very clear that your so intellectually lazy that you prefer to become confrontational on the cheap, and just demand that others do your homework for free.

                         

                         I will not.

                         

                        Electric busses are not mass produced, and other than the ones that were phased out at Yosemite, few exist.
                        So cost are very high.
                        It really is quite simple, even if you stubbornly continue to choose to disbelieve the obvious in favor of believing in the ridiculous…as usual!

                        John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                        It is very clear that you know nothing about production so you cannot determine what qualifies as mass production.

                        When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                        Free Energy wrote:
                        you look it up

                        John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                        I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                        Look up the number of buses that are made each year in the US and tell us if that number qualifies as "mass produced"?

                        Free Energy wrote:
                        are buses mass produced?

                        John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                        It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                        How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?





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                      • John Grant
                        You STILL have not told us what you consider mass production to be!!! When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but
                        Message 12 of 19 , Jun 7, 2005
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                          You STILL have not told us what you consider mass production to be!!!

                          When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                          How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                          Are motors in the 25 to 100 horsepower range mass produced?  You know, the size motors needed for buses?  It is not the cost of the motors that prevents electric buses from being produced.


                          Free Energy wrote:

                          its very clear that your so intellectually lazy that you prefer to become confrontational on the cheap, and just demand that others do your homework for free.

                           

                           I will not.

                           

                          Electric busses are not mass produced, and other than the ones that were phased out at Yosemite, few exist.
                          So cost are very high.
                          It really is quite simple, even if you stubbornly continue to choose to disbelieve the obvious in favor of believing in the ridiculous…as usual!

                          John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                          It is very clear that you know nothing about production so you cannot determine what qualifies as mass production.

                          When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                          Free Energy wrote:
                          you look it up

                          John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                          I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                          Look up the number of buses that are made each year in the US and tell us if that number qualifies as "mass produced"?

                          Free Energy wrote:
                          are buses mass produced?

                          John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                          It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                          How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?





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                        • Free Energy
                          get used ti it. John Grant wrote:You STILL have not told us what you consider mass production to be!!! When I give you an example of
                          Message 13 of 19 , Jun 8, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            get used ti it.

                            John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                            You STILL have not told us what you consider mass production to be!!!

                            When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                            How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                            Are motors in the 25 to 100 horsepower range mass produced?  You know, the size motors needed for buses?  It is not the cost of the motors that prevents electric buses from being produced.


                            Free Energy wrote:

                            its very clear that your so intellectually lazy that you prefer to become confrontational on the cheap, and just demand that others do your homework for free.

                             

                             I will not.

                             

                            Electric busses are not mass produced, and other than the ones that were phased out at Yosemite, few exist.
                            So cost are very high.
                            It really is quite simple, even if you stubbornly continue to choose to disbelieve the obvious in favor of believing in the ridiculous…as usual!

                            John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                            It is very clear that you know nothing about production so you cannot determine what qualifies as mass production.

                            When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                            Free Energy wrote:
                            you look it up

                            John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                            I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                            Look up the number of buses that are made each year in the US and tell us if that number qualifies as "mass produced"?

                            Free Energy wrote:
                            are buses mass produced?

                            John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                            It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                            How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?





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                          • John Grant
                            Just as I thought, you have no idea of the subject.
                            Message 14 of 19 , Jun 8, 2005
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                              Just as I thought, you have no idea of the subject.

                              Free Energy wrote:
                              get used ti it.

                              John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                              You STILL have not told us what you consider mass production to be!!!

                              When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                              How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                              Are motors in the 25 to 100 horsepower range mass produced?  You know, the size motors needed for buses?  It is not the cost of the motors that prevents electric buses from being produced.


                              Free Energy wrote:

                              its very clear that your so intellectually lazy that you prefer to become confrontational on the cheap, and just demand that others do your homework for free.

                               

                               I will not.

                               

                              Electric busses are not mass produced, and other than the ones that were phased out at Yosemite, few exist.
                              So cost are very high.
                              It really is quite simple, even if you stubbornly continue to choose to disbelieve the obvious in favor of believing in the ridiculous…as usual!

                              John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                              It is very clear that you know nothing about production so you cannot determine what qualifies as mass production.

                              When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                              Free Energy wrote:
                              you look it up

                              John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                              I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                              Look up the number of buses that are made each year in the US and tell us if that number qualifies as "mass produced"?

                              Free Energy wrote:
                              are buses mass produced?

                              John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                              It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                              How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?





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                            • Free Energy
                              So you are still obsessing about the fact that electric busses are not mass produced! The six drugs that have been shown to be effective in such studies
                              Message 15 of 19 , Jun 9, 2005
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                                So you are still obsessing about the fact that electric busses are not mass produced!

                                 

                                The six drugs that have been shown to be effective in such studies include: fluvoxamine (Luvox), fluoxetine (Prozac), sertraline (Zoloft), paroxetine (Paxil), citalopram (Celexa), and clomipramine (Anafranil). Anafranil has been around the longest and is the best studied throughout the world, but there is growing evidence that the other drugs are as effective. In addition to these carefully studied drugs, there are hundreds of case reports of other drugs occasionally being helpful. There are reports of small number of patients that suggest that venlafaxine (Effexor) may also be somewhat effective; but there have been no large scale controlled trials done yet.

                                 

                                So either take your medication or just write 1000 times….

                                 

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                I’ am not obsessing.

                                John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                                Just as I thought, you have no idea of the subject.

                                Free Energy wrote:
                                get used ti it.

                                John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                                You STILL have not told us what you consider mass production to be!!!

                                When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                                How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                                Are motors in the 25 to 100 horsepower range mass produced?  You know, the size motors needed for buses?  It is not the cost of the motors that prevents electric buses from being produced.


                                Free Energy wrote:

                                its very clear that your so intellectually lazy that you prefer to become confrontational on the cheap, and just demand that others do your homework for free.

                                 

                                 I will not.

                                 

                                Electric busses are not mass produced, and other than the ones that were phased out at Yosemite, few exist.
                                So cost are very high.
                                It really is quite simple, even if you stubbornly continue to choose to disbelieve the obvious in favor of believing in the ridiculous…as usual!

                                John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                                It is very clear that you know nothing about production so you cannot determine what qualifies as mass production.

                                When I give you an example of large production, you say that is not mass production but you refuse to tell us what qualifies as mass production.

                                Free Energy wrote:
                                you look it up

                                John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                                I ask you to reply to the statement: It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?  How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?

                                Look up the number of buses that are made each year in the US and tell us if that number qualifies as "mass produced"?

                                Free Energy wrote:
                                are buses mass produced?

                                John Grant <grantjoh@...> wrote:
                                It would be useful if you told us what you mean by "mass market"?
                                How many items per year?  Are 747s mass produced?  Are Kenworth trucks mass produced?  Are Kenmore dish washers mass produced?





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