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Re: Classic 14 transom and scarfing

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  • petekni69
    Hi Elliot, i have nothing for you on the tramson question- i m not planning on a transomed skin boat for awhile, so i haven t given them much thought. However,
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 5, 2008
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      Hi Elliot,

      i have nothing for you on the tramson question- i'm not planning on a
      transomed skin boat for awhile, so i haven't given them much thought.

      However, when i think about the quality of wood that i am going to be
      able to work with, scarfing IS something that i have been thinking
      about. Are you planning to scarf each piece, or to scarf the
      original stock and cut the stringers from that? If you go with the
      latter, you've pretty much decided where the scarfs will lie on the
      boat. Does it make sense to line the scarfs up? Depending on whose
      glue ads you read, a scarf will be stronger than the original wood.
      But it will affect the flexibility of the piece. With that in mind,
      it makes some sense to me to line up the scarfs. And this is
      contrary to my orginal plan to vary the placement of the scarfs.

      At this point i am considering a fuselage type framed double paddle
      canoe, rather than a steamed frame type GA boat, but many of the
      considerations are similar in many types of skin boats. Thanks for
      the mental chew toy!

      pete
    • Scott Perkins
      If any of the planned scarfed pieces are not already too thin, I would definitely think about slicing them in half and laminating them back together with the
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 5, 2008
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        If any of the planned scarfed pieces are not already too thin,
        I would definitely think about slicing them in half and laminating
        them back together with the scarf joints separated.
        This laminating process is also a favorite trick I learned
        to put the curve in the the tips of water skis as the
        thinner pieces are much easier to bend without breaking
        and if you clamp them in the curved position while the
        glue is drying there may be no need for steaming.
        Scott

        petekni69 wrote:
        >
        > Hi Elliot,
        >
        > i have nothing for you on the tramson question- i'm not planning on a
        > transomed skin boat for awhile, so i haven't given them much thought.
        >
        > However, when i think about the quality of wood that i am going to be
        > able to work with, scarfing IS something that i have been thinking
        > about. Are you planning to scarf each piece, or to scarf the
        > original stock and cut the stringers from that? If you go with the
        > latter, you've pretty much decided where the scarfs will lie on the
        > boat. Does it make sense to line the scarfs up? Depending on whose
        > glue ads you read, a scarf will be stronger than the original wood.
        > But it will affect the flexibility of the piece. With that in mind,
        > it makes some sense to me to line up the scarfs. And this is
        > contrary to my orginal plan to vary the placement of the scarfs.
        >
        > At this point i am considering a fuselage type framed double paddle
        > canoe, rather than a steamed frame type GA boat, but many of the
        > considerations are similar in many types of skin boats. Thanks for
        > the mental chew toy!
        >
        > pete
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
        > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
        > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1254 - Release Date: 1/31/08 8:30 PM
      • Elliot Mednick
        I just received the partial kit for the Classic 14. There were two surprises. One was the inclusion of 5-yarn roving. I expected the 2-yarn. I would have
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 5, 2008
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          I just received the partial kit for the Classic 14. There were two
          surprises. One was the inclusion of 5-yarn roving. I expected the 2-yarn.
          I would have figured that the 2-yarn would be sufficient.

          The second -- and what I think is more interesting -- surprise is the
          absence of the Excel One polyurethane glue. I used this for the rib joints
          on the Arrow 14 when I built it in 2003. Does anyone know why it is no
          longer included in the kit? Is it no longer available? Did Platt or
          someone find fault with it? I found it easier to use for the rib joints
          where the glue doesn't have to be as strong. And great for filling the
          gaps.

          Thanks!
          --Elliot
        • noneof yourbusiness
          Elliot: I think the 5 yarn is the norm for these larger boats. That s what came with the Classic 12. Not sure about the others. Also with the Classic 12 came
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 6, 2008
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            Elliot:
            I think the 5 yarn is the norm for these larger boats.
            That's what came with the Classic 12. Not sure about
            the others. Also with the Classic 12 came the epoxy.
            No poly glue, although I did purchase a small bottle
            of it. I used the epoxy though. I'm more familiar with
            that and decided to try the poly on another project.

            Sincerely:
            Paul T
            --- Elliot Mednick <elliot@...> wrote:

            > I just received the partial kit for the Classic 14.
            > There were two
            > surprises. One was the inclusion of 5-yarn roving.
            > I expected the 2-yarn.
            > I would have figured that the 2-yarn would be
            > sufficient.
            >
            > The second -- and what I think is more interesting
            > -- surprise is the
            > absence of the Excel One polyurethane glue. I used
            > this for the rib joints
            > on the Arrow 14 when I built it in 2003. Does
            > anyone know why it is no
            > longer included in the kit? Is it no longer
            > available? Did Platt or
            > someone find fault with it? I found it easier to
            > use for the rib joints
            > where the glue doesn't have to be as strong. And
            > great for filling the
            > gaps.
            >
            > Thanks!
            > --Elliot
            >
            >
            >
            >



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          • bschless@rasco.com
            Are you sure the glue isn t in the kit? It was down in the folded cloth for my 10 footer. And yes, 5 yarn roving. Build yourself a comb using finishing
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 6, 2008
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              Are you sure the glue isn't in the kit?  It was down in the folded cloth for my 10 footer.  And yes, 5 yarn roving.  Build yourself a comb using finishing nails to straighten it out.  It's a chore, but worth it.  



              Beau Schless
              President/CEO
              NOTEbookS Library Automation Systems
              Celebrating 15 years exceeding customers' expectations
              HTTP://WWW.RASCO.COM
              PH: 1.(978) 443-2996



              "Elliot Mednick" <elliot@...>
              Sent by: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com

              03/05/2008 09:53 PM

              Please respond to
              Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com

              To
              <Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com>
              cc
              Subject
              [Airolite_Boats] Polyurethane glue?






              I just received the partial kit for the Classic 14. There were two
              surprises. One was the inclusion of 5-yarn roving. I expected the 2-yarn.
              I would have figured that the 2-yarn would be sufficient.

              The second -- and what I think is more interesting -- surprise is the
              absence of the Excel One polyurethane glue. I used this for the rib joints
              on the Arrow 14 when I built it in 2003. Does anyone know why it is no
              longer included in the kit? Is it no longer available? Did Platt or
              someone find fault with it? I found it easier to use for the rib joints
              where the glue doesn't have to be as strong. And great for filling the
              gaps.

              Thanks!
              --Elliot


            • guyt36
              I wondered about the poly glue as well when I built my Arrow 14 last winter. I emailed Bette and asked if I should use the epoxy on the rib joints. Yes! You
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 7, 2008
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                I wondered about the poly glue as well when I built my Arrow 14 last winter. I emailed Bette
                and asked if I should use the epoxy on the rib joints.

                "Yes! You certainly can use the epoxy..Platt, the designer, whom I lost a year ago dropped
                the Excel a couple of years ago..feeling it was too messy. Use epoxy... Good Luck with it.
                Merry Christmas, Bette Monfort"
              • Elliot Mednick
                This is the definitive answer. Thanks! I wonder if by messy , he meant the expansion of the glue, which can t be controlled, and which could get in the way
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 7, 2008
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                  This is the definitive answer.  Thanks!

                   

                  I wonder if by “messy”, he meant the expansion of the glue, which can’t be controlled, and which could  get in the way of the Dacron, or perhaps just make the joints not look good.  I doubt he meant the actual application of the glue, which you could apply  easily from the bottle, unlike the epoxy, which you have to mix and then use an applicator.

                   

                  Sadly, we can’t ask him.

                   

                  But if “messy” is the only issue, I’m inclined to go ahead and use Gorilla Glue (or some equivalent quality polyurethane glue) for the ribs, just for its gap-filling characteristic and its ease of application.  OTOH, Platt knew best…

                   

                  --Elliot

                   

                   

                  From: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of guyt36
                  Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:08 AM
                  To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Airolite_Boats] Re: Polyurethane glue?

                   

                  I wondered about the poly glue as well when I built my Arrow 14 last winter. I emailed Bette
                  and asked if I should use the epoxy on the rib joints.

                  "Yes! You certainly can use the epoxy..Platt, the designer, whom I lost a year ago dropped
                  the Excel a couple of years ago..feeling it was too messy. Use epoxy... Good Luck with it.
                  Merry Christmas, Bette Monfort"

                • Scott Perkins
                  The epoxy is a stronger glue but whenever the glue regardless of its strength is stronger than what it is attached to it doesnt really matter. Both are
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 7, 2008
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                    The epoxy is a stronger glue but whenever the glue regardless of its
                    strength
                    is stronger than what it is attached to it doesnt really matter.
                    Both are waterproof but when filling gaps the polyurethane
                    will become much weaker do the the bubbles forming a foam
                    instead of a solid glue joint.


                    guyt36 wrote:
                    >
                    > I wondered about the poly glue as well when I built my Arrow 14 last winter. I emailed Bette
                    > and asked if I should use the epoxy on the rib joints.
                    >
                    > "Yes! You certainly can use the epoxy..Platt, the designer, whom I lost a year ago dropped
                    > the Excel a couple of years ago..feeling it was too messy. Use epoxy... Good Luck with it.
                    > Merry Christmas, Bette Monfort"
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.18/1254 - Release Date: 1/31/08 8:30 PM
                  • Roland Deschain
                    Elliot: As best I recall, there have also been several citations in WoodenBoat that suggest that polyurethane glue is not quite as waterproof as commonly
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 8, 2008
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                      Elliot:

                      As best I recall, there have also been several citations in WoodenBoat that suggest that polyurethane glue is not quite as waterproof as commonly thought (I think one of them was by Richard Jaegels in case you feel motivated to search for it). I wouldn't altogether recommend against its use, but I would try to make sure that I didn't use it on any joint that could conceivably be submerged for an extended period.

                      -Roland


                      --- On Fri, 3/7/08, Elliot Mednick <elliot@...> wrote:

                      > From: Elliot Mednick <elliot@...>
                      > Subject: RE: [Airolite_Boats] Re: Polyurethane glue?
                      > To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Friday, March 7, 2008, 7:55 AM
                      > This is the definitive answer. Thanks!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I wonder if by "messy", he meant the expansion of
                      > the glue, which can't be
                      > controlled, and which could get in the way of the Dacron,
                      > or perhaps just
                      > make the joints not look good. I doubt he meant the actual
                      > application of
                      > the glue, which you could apply easily from the bottle,
                      > unlike the epoxy,
                      > which you have to mix and then use an applicator.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Sadly, we can't ask him.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > But if "messy" is the only issue, I'm
                      > inclined to go ahead and use Gorilla
                      > Glue (or some equivalent quality polyurethane glue) for the
                      > ribs, just for
                      > its gap-filling characteristic and its ease of application.
                      > OTOH, Platt
                      > knew best.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --Elliot
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On Behalf Of guyt36
                      > Sent: Friday, March 07, 2008 6:08 AM
                      > To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: [Airolite_Boats] Re: Polyurethane glue?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I wondered about the poly glue as well when I built my
                      > Arrow 14 last winter.
                      > I emailed Bette
                      > and asked if I should use the epoxy on the rib joints.
                      >
                      > "Yes! You certainly can use the epoxy..Platt, the
                      > designer, whom I lost a
                      > year ago dropped
                      > the Excel a couple of years ago..feeling it was too messy.
                      > Use epoxy... Good
                      > Luck with it.
                      > Merry Christmas, Bette Monfort"


                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                    • Elliot Mednick
                      I m going to ask the question about the transom again. According to Platt s instructions, the transom is cut oversize . The plans show the rough cut line
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 21, 2008
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                        I’m going to ask the question about the transom again.  According to Platt’s instructions, the transom is cut “oversize”.  The plans show the rough cut line even larger than the inside edge.  But I can’t figure out why.  Is it because planing it down produces a smoother edge?  I realize that you plane the bevel after the stringers are installed to get the edge “fair” with the stringers.  But at what point do you make the inside cut?  Why not just cut the transom to the inside dimension?  Rough edges?

                         

                        In another place, he talks about scoring plywood with a knife, then using a scroll saw.  The score makes the cut smooth.  I don’t know if this also can be applied to the transom.

                         

                        Thanks!

                         

                        --Elliot

                         

                         

                        From: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of noneof yourbusiness
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 3:41 PM
                        To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Airolite_Boats] Classic 14 transom and scarfing

                         

                        Elliot:
                        Re: question #1.
                        Not sure about "rough cutting the transom" Not sure,
                        but the impression I got was to cut it out per the
                        pattern, which was in fact the outline of the inner
                        edge(the dry side). The other line, inward of that
                        perimeter was the outside edge (the wet side). Then
                        when you cut the notches and install the stringers,
                        they will sort of self fair and you can then plane the
                        bevel to the stringers. Does it make a difference?
                        I've only done it that way, so I can't really say. But
                        it seemed to make sense in application.


                        > I'm about to start on the Classic 14. I have
                        > already built an Arrow 14, so
                        > I'm familiar with the process, but I have some new
                        > questions:
                        >
                        > 1) What's the purpose of rough-cutting the transom?
                        > Why not just cut it to
                        > size? Then cut the notches, glue the stringers and
                        > plane down the edge of
                        > the transom to bevel to the angle of the stringers?

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