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Re: [Airolite_Boats] Re: Hull sealing methods

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  • Bruce T. Martens
    Last year I built a wooden stitch-n-glue kayak. I am now hoping to start a NIMROD, then an EBENEZER. On my wood kayak, I coated the bottom with epoxy mixed
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 4, 2011
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      Last year I built a wooden stitch-n-glue kayak.  I am now hoping to start a NIMROD, then an EBENEZER.  On my wood kayak, I coated the bottom with epoxy mixed with graphite power.  After several contacts with underwater branches and smooth rocks, the surface isn't even scratched.        Aside from the obvious weight factor, what do you folks think about applying that to the bottom of an Airolite hull?????   Has anyone tried it???    VERY interested in hearing from you..  ~BRUCE~ 

      On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:31 AM, steve arnett <stephen_arnett@...> wrote:
       

      Thanks everyone for your responses.  It appears that several methods may be appropriate for my intended use. 
       
      -Steve

      --- On Sun, 9/4/11, rueffingkidding <rueffingkidding@...> wrote:

      From: rueffingkidding <rueffingkidding@...>
      Subject: [Airolite_Boats] Re: Hull sealing methods
      To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, September 4, 2011, 8:05 AM


       


      Correct or not, Platt Monfort's rationale for proposing the substitution of MonoKote (or other Mylar-like film top coat) for poly varnish/paint was the assumption that by locking the Dacron fibers in position (relative to each other), the varnish would make each fiber more susceptible to being sliced by a very sharp-edged object because there would be no latitude for the fiber to be pushed out of the way of the cutting edge of that object. Under this assumption, presumably with an outer layer of MonoKote that has "film integrity" but is weakly bonded to the Dacron, such an object would slice the MonoKote, but only push the Dacron fibers out of the way. That would leave a leak, but no "structural damage" to the skin.

      -Roland

      --- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ash <ashcan@...> wrote:
      ...
      > Although it's tough stuff, aircraft Dacron is NOT itself a rip-stop fabric (ballon fabric is). Before finishing this email, I just went to my basement and scrounged up a piece I saved as a souvenir from an aircraft fabric-covering class I took maybe 5 years ago. It's the medium weight fabric, not the heavy (most small airplane applications use the medium). The only thing that really breaks this material down is UV light, and my sample has been tucked between some books on a shelf. My sample went through the Polyfiber process, all the way through the top color coats of paint. Polyfiber is a vinyl-based process, soaked through the fabric, so it's bound pretty well. I just now cut a slit on each of the two axis of weave to create a stress point at each, and ripped it both ways. Granted, it took a little doing, but it did tear (it's something I've been wondering about anyhow). I don't know how much force it would take to start a tear, but I'll bet it's amazingly substantial without some kind of initial breach. To continue the tear would have taken a decent amount of force to continue, so if you do start a tear, it may not run to the edge of the fabric without some help and incentive.
      >
      ...
      > Some questions that remain un-answered: I don't know if the Polyfiber adhesives and paints add to or detract from the strength of the original Dacron; I've got some non-painted medium-weight fabric around here somewhere, but I couldn't find it this morning. I also don't know if you use house paint or some other who-knows-what paints, how well it will bind to the Dacron. Polyfiber is obviously a lot more expensive than hardware store paint, so there is that, and it's best shot (versus brushed), so there's that added hassle. I've toyed with stitching my ribs for added strength on the Explorer, but I haven't decided yet. I guess I figure that a tear between two ribs isn't going to allow the boat to float any more than a tear across multiple ribs. This may not be true and I may live to regret it if I don't stitch; we'll see.
      >
      > I also wonder about the relative tear- and puncture-resistance between Dacron and Monocote. I haven't messed with Monocote since my model airplane days in the late 70's, so I don't remember its mechanical properties. I do remember that woven fabrics for models had just hit the market and were the hot ticket, and I remember thinking how much more durable it appeared than Monocote, but my memory could be elsewhere. I also don't know if Monocote has mechanically improved since then or not. I'm not trying to sell you on either system, but I just personally feel better with a woven fabric instead of a film on my boat.
      >
      ...
      > > Thanks,
      > > -Steve
      > >
      >


    • Aaron Wood
      There are many options out there to toughen up these hulls. I think the graphite option is a good one, however the epoxy may not remain flexible enough on this
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 4, 2011
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        There are many options out there to toughen up these hulls. I think the graphite option is a good one, however the epoxy may not remain flexible enough on this fabric.

        All of these options will make the hulls tougher but not as tough as is required for frequent rock contact. If that's what you're looking for buy a Royalex boat. My little Snowshoe 14 is, in my opinion, as tough (painted) as a wood canvas canoe, maybe tougher. These boats were used as primary canoes for all applications for a long time. They just needed repair now and then. When I want to run bigger whitewater and bash rocks I use my whitewater boat. When I paddle rivers in my GA boat I carry it (usually!) around the rapids. I have run (little) rapids and hit rocks in my GA boat too. It has done well. I just touch up the paint from time to time and in one case put a little patch on, a ten minute job.

        The great thing about the latex paint is that its super easy to touch up!

        None of this has anything to do with ripstop qualities but just further thoughts and experiences :-)

        Cheers,

        Aaron

        Sent from my BlackBerry


        From: "Bruce T. Martens" <tugbruce@...>
        Sender: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 09:26:49 -0700
        To: <Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com>
        ReplyTo: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Airolite_Boats] Re: Hull sealing methods

         

        Last year I built a wooden stitch-n-glue kayak.  I am now hoping to start a NIMROD, then an EBENEZER.  On my wood kayak, I coated the bottom with epoxy mixed with graphite power.  After several contacts with underwater branches and smooth rocks, the surface isn't even scratched.        Aside from the obvious weight factor, what do you folks think about applying that to the bottom of an Airolite hull?????   Has anyone tried it???    VERY interested in hearing from you..  ~BRUCE~ 

        On Sun, Sep 4, 2011 at 8:31 AM, steve arnett <stephen_arnett@...> wrote:
         

        Thanks everyone for your responses.  It appears that several methods may be appropriate for my intended use. 
         
        -Steve

        --- On Sun, 9/4/11, rueffingkidding <rueffingkidding@...> wrote:

        From: rueffingkidding <rueffingkidding@...>
        Subject: [Airolite_Boats] Re: Hull sealing methods
        To: Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, September 4, 2011, 8:05 AM


         


        Correct or not, Platt Monfort's rationale for proposing the substitution of MonoKote (or other Mylar-like film top coat) for poly varnish/paint was the assumption that by locking the Dacron fibers in position (relative to each other), the varnish would make each fiber more susceptible to being sliced by a very sharp-edged object because there would be no latitude for the fiber to be pushed out of the way of the cutting edge of that object. Under this assumption, presumably with an outer layer of MonoKote that has "film integrity" but is weakly bonded to the Dacron, such an object would slice the MonoKote, but only push the Dacron fibers out of the way. That would leave a leak, but no "structural damage" to the skin.

        -Roland

        --- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, Jim Ash <ashcan@...> wrote:
        ...
        > Although it's tough stuff, aircraft Dacron is NOT itself a rip-stop fabric (ballon fabric is). Before finishing this email, I just went to my basement and scrounged up a piece I saved as a souvenir from an aircraft fabric-covering class I took maybe 5 years ago. It's the medium weight fabric, not the heavy (most small airplane applications use the medium). The only thing that really breaks this material down is UV light, and my sample has been tucked between some books on a shelf. My sample went through the Polyfiber process, all the way through the top color coats of paint. Polyfiber is a vinyl-based process, soaked through the fabric, so it's bound pretty well. I just now cut a slit on each of the two axis of weave to create a stress point at each, and ripped it both ways. Granted, it took a little doing, but it did tear (it's something I've been wondering about anyhow). I don't know how much force it would take to start a tear, but I'll bet it's amazingly substantial without some kind of initial breach. To continue the tear would have taken a decent amount of force to continue, so if you do start a tear, it may not run to the edge of the fabric without some help and incentive.
        >
        ...
        > Some questions that remain un-answered: I don't know if the Polyfiber adhesives and paints add to or detract from the strength of the original Dacron; I've got some non-painted medium-weight fabric around here somewhere, but I couldn't find it this morning. I also don't know if you use house paint or some other who-knows-what paints, how well it will bind to the Dacron. Polyfiber is obviously a lot more expensive than hardware store paint, so there is that, and it's best shot (versus brushed), so there's that added hassle. I've toyed with stitching my ribs for added strength on the Explorer, but I haven't decided yet. I guess I figure that a tear between two ribs isn't going to allow the boat to float any more than a tear across multiple ribs. This may not be true and I may live to regret it if I don't stitch; we'll see.
        >
        > I also wonder about the relative tear- and puncture-resistance between Dacron and Monocote. I haven't messed with Monocote since my model airplane days in the late 70's, so I don't remember its mechanical properties. I do remember that woven fabrics for models had just hit the market and were the hot ticket, and I remember thinking how much more durable it appeared than Monocote, but my memory could be elsewhere. I also don't know if Monocote has mechanically improved since then or not. I'm not trying to sell you on either system, but I just personally feel better with a woven fabric instead of a film on my boat.
        >
        ...
        > > Thanks,
        > > -Steve
        > >
        >


      • dwstucke
        I recently completed a skin-on-frame kayak using 8oz polyester fabric. If you are looking for heavier weights than the aircraft suppliers stock, George Dyson
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 4, 2011
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          I recently completed a skin-on-frame kayak using 8oz polyester fabric. If you are looking for heavier weights than the aircraft suppliers stock, George Dyson sells un-shrunk polyester fabric in a variety of weights and weaves. He doesn't have a website but if you send him an email at GDyson@... he will send you a detailed description of 8 to 10 fabric choices that he has available.

          -Don





          --- In Airolite_Boats@yahoogroups.com, "Caruk, Gord" <gord.caruk@...> wrote:
          >

          > If anyone happens to find 6 oz Dacron, please let me (all of us!) know. I think that is all that I'm really accomplishing with the two layers anyway, and it would probably be easier to just do it all at one go.
          >
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