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Re: Flugtag

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  • Mitja
    ... The main problem at Flugtag is a fact, that you launch parallel to the ground and with slow speed. So that is a main reason that every flying objecti will
    Message 1 of 19 , Feb 5, 2007
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      --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "teamshenanigans" <jamie@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am in the beginning stages of design for a potential Flugtag entry
      > (they haven't announced locations just yet). I will be limited to the
      > 30' wingspan by the rule set. I am considering a bi or tri plane.
      > Any thoughts about wing width or chord or a rib profile?
      >
      > thanks!
      > jamie
      >

      The main problem at Flugtag is a fact, that you launch parallel to the
      ground and with slow speed.
      So that is a main reason that every flying objecti will start its
      flight simply stalling.
      So, if one want to win, it must create a flying machine, that can
      survive inital stalling, and loos as much little height during
      recovery to "normal" flight. The feel of the pilot to react properly
      is also very important.

      So, the better way is to buy an second hand single sail hang glider,
      cut the wingspan to 9 m, rearange pilot hanging point and make some
      flights with it. Then you are (almost) prepared for the Flugtag event.

      But if you want to have some fun, I suggest you to build a triplane of
      about 5 5.5 and 6 m wingspan,wingcord about 1,1m, build from aluminum
      tubes, reinforced with some steel wires, and covered with dacron or
      even skytex. It could be similar like red baron famous WW1 triplane,
      colored in red. The "landing gear" should be soft and just ad
      "decoration", because you should footlaunch it running like hell :)

      The airfoil should incorporate heavy curvature at the nose, so the
      stalling behaviour will be nice, and max permitted angle of attack
      large enough.

      Mitja
    • Steve Kroll
      Is anybody far enough along with a Goat that we might receive some news in that regard? Steve ... The fish are biting. Get more visitors on your site using
      Message 2 of 19 , Feb 5, 2007
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        Is anybody far enough along with a Goat that we might receive some news in that regard?
         
        Steve


        The fish are biting.
        Get more visitors on your site using Yahoo! Search Marketing.
      • red
        Campers, Hate to say it, but the Flugtag events give me a pain. First off, nobody is ever going to enter the Flugtag with a Goat, because the Flugtag rules do
        Message 3 of 19 , Feb 5, 2007
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          Campers,

          Hate to say it, but the Flugtag events give me a pain. First
          off, nobody is ever going to enter the Flugtag with a Goat, because the
          Flugtag rules do limit the wingspan to 30 feet (~9m) and the Goat has a
          36 foot (~11m) wingspan. I have never seen any coverage of the Flugtag
          events that did not look like living proof that people can not really
          fly, and all of the entrants are clowns, or crazy, or both. I have a
          far better opinion of the people who participate in this forum.
          One person said they held one Flugtag event with a TAILWIND at
          the launch platform, which should tell anybody that failure to fly is
          not merely expected, but encouraged by the management.
          The last Flugtag "winner" flew 86 feet (22m) from a platform 22
          feet (6,7m) high; that is LESS than a four-to-one glide! That is
          PITIFUL glide performance! Anybody who can cliff-launch an ATOS could
          easily double (or maybe triple) that gliding distance, but again, I
          believe that Flugtag is NOT about proving that people are able to fly,
          but just the reverse. I'm guessing that's why the Flugtag contest rules
          forbid entering with a design like an ATOS (or any similar proven
          production glider).
          Okay, now let's get semi-reasonable here. An early (1970's)
          home-built biplane hang glider is called the Easy Riser. The stock
          Riser has a 30 foot wingspan. You can expect a six- or eight-to-one
          glide from the proven Riser design, which puts your distance from launch
          somewhere between 132 feet (40m) and 176 feet (53m). That beats the
          last Flugtag "winner" by more than fifty percent! Since you can have a
          team of four people pushing at launch, you should expect to do several
          yards (meters) better than that, in glide. You can buy the complete
          Riser kit for maybe US$2k-3k. Maybe you can find the plans on the 'Net,
          for about US$50, and materials will cost maybe a grand or two (you can
          take some unreasonable short-cuts with a "one-time only" Flugtag
          machine). NOT counting your time, travel, and risks (the physical risks
          are considerable), you can expect no more than a three-to-one dollar
          reward for all of this expense and effort, and then only if you win
          first place, and do that without injury.
          Instead, I would encourage any would-be pilot to construct and
          enjoy (for many years of flying) the fully-capable and proven soaring
          aircraft that we call airchairs here, and PLEASE do not attempt the very
          dangerous cliff-launch, that a Flugtag event requires. Mike Sandlin
          reports soaring an airchair a mile high, and a flight over 50 miles
          (80km) long. If an aluminum flying machine is not your ideal, the ULF-1
          is all-wood and Certified (!) to German standards. I am completely
          baffled, as to why anybody would want to take the Flugtag events
          seriously; every flight attempt at Flugtag ends by "landing" your
          hand-made craft in water!
          FWIW, I have a few thousand hours of soaring airtime (none of it
          in sailplanes), flying the Rocky Mountains of Utah with a monoplane
          rigid wing (tailless hang glider) called the Fledgling. I have made
          flights over six hours long, and soared well above the limits of oxygen
          (yeah, I carry oxygen).

          http://www.xmission.com/~red/history/fledge2.jpg

          Flugtag, eat your heart out... :-)
          --
          If there is an "A" in my email address,
          please delete the A to respond.
          Cheers,
          Red
          ************************
          P.S. Not relevant, but...
          Free advice, and maybe worth the price,
          for new and low-time HG pilots,
          at my website:
          http://www.xmission.com/~red/

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Kroll
          Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:58 PM
          To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag


          Is anybody far enough along with a Goat that we might receive some news
          in that regard?

          Steve
        • stutzman@kynd.net
          Personally, I m still waiting for someone to take the D tube and carbon rod spar technology (from the Marske gliders) with a Dacron skin and apply it to a Goat
          Message 4 of 19 , Feb 6, 2007
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            Personally, I’m still waiting for someone to take the D tube and carbon rod spar technology (from the Marske gliders) with a Dacron skin and apply it to a Goat 3 like design (except a little more laid back).  Basically, it would be a primary glider that performs like an Atos, or better.  Red is right about Flugtag, but sometimes it is nice

            (Message over 64 KB, truncated)

          • augusthahn
            You tellum Rex ! update me on the commercil? I missed it. As for as the puplic knee jerk reaction about about light aviation and home builts especily and their
            Message 5 of 19 , Feb 6, 2007
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              You tellum Rex ! update me on the commercil? I missed it. As for as the puplic knee jerk reaction about about light aviation and home builts especily and their safety record, I,m scared to death to ride on the freeway.Remember that L.A incindent where the front wheel was all turned around,I marvel at the skill of that pilot for the allmost perfect landing.If the general driving puplic were so trained !! For miles traveled aviation of any kind is much safer then your average auto commute.If the media would give as much attention to auto crashes there would,nt be time for any other news !!!. and it,s not the pilots,it,s the greedy bottom line co,s that are dangerous,I just watched a PBS program about flight  something (forgot) and that would give anyone the jeepies !!!
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:56 AM
              Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag

                  I saw the commercial for the first time last night. I agree with Red, they are going down the wrong path and doing a great disservice to light aviation. The dumb masses (dumbasses) out there are already scared to death of flying due to media sensationalizing of every forced landing ever made.
                  If one of the smarter clowns in this event wants to really learn something, come work for me. We'll build something you can be proud of .... and us real pilots won't be pissed off at you.
               
              Rex


              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.17.20/664 - Release Date: 2/2/2007 3:42 PM
            • augusthahn
              Sorry to get slightly off subject,but I was rather shocked by the low sink rate/ L/d of the easy riser.I would have thought it was much higher?heck the
              Message 6 of 19 , Feb 6, 2007
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                Sorry to get slightly off subject,but I was rather shocked by the low sink rate/ L/d of the easy riser.I would have thought it was much higher?heck the homebuilt weedhopper has a 9-1 ratio ! and I stil have,nt heard the specs on MIkes Goats ??? I,d take a guess maybe 10:1??
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: red
                Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 9:49 PM
                Subject: RE: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag

                Campers,

                Hate to say it, but the Flugtag events give me a pain. First
                off, nobody is ever going to enter the Flugtag with a Goat, because the
                Flugtag rules do limit the wingspan to 30 feet (~9m) and the Goat has a
                36 foot (~11m) wingspan. I have never seen any coverage of the Flugtag
                events that did not look like living proof that people can not really
                fly, and all of the entrants are clowns, or crazy, or both. I have a
                far better opinion of the people who participate in this forum.
                One person said they held one Flugtag event with a TAILWIND at
                the launch platform, which should tell anybody that failure to fly is
                not merely expected, but encouraged by the management.
                The last Flugtag "winner" flew 86 feet (22m) from a platform 22
                feet (6,7m) high; that is LESS than a four-to-one glide! That is
                PITIFUL glide performance! Anybody who can cliff-launch an ATOS could
                easily double (or maybe triple) that gliding distance, but again, I
                believe that Flugtag is NOT about proving that people are able to fly,
                but just the reverse. I'm guessing that's why the Flugtag contest rules
                forbid entering with a design like an ATOS (or any similar proven
                production glider).
                Okay, now let's get semi-reasonable here. An early (1970's)
                home-built biplane hang glider is called the Easy Riser. The stock
                Riser has a 30 foot wingspan. You can expect a six- or eight-to-one
                glide from the proven Riser design, which puts your distance from launch
                somewhere between 132 feet (40m) and 176 feet (53m). That beats the
                last Flugtag "winner" by more than fifty percent! Since you can have a
                team of four people pushing at launch, you should expect to do several
                yards (meters) better than that, in glide. You can buy the complete
                Riser kit for maybe US$2k-3k. Maybe you can find the plans on the 'Net,
                for about US$50, and materials will cost maybe a grand or two (you can
                take some unreasonable short-cuts with a "one-time only" Flugtag
                machine). NOT counting your time, travel, and risks (the physical risks
                are considerable) , you can expect no more than a three-to-one dollar
                reward for all of this expense and effort, and then only if you win
                first place, and do that without injury.
                Instead, I would encourage any would-be pilot to construct and
                enjoy (for many years of flying) the fully-capable and proven soaring
                aircraft that we call airchairs here, and PLEASE do not attempt the very
                dangerous cliff-launch, that a Flugtag event requires. Mike Sandlin
                reports soaring an airchair a mile high, and a flight over 50 miles
                (80km) long. If an aluminum flying machine is not your ideal, the ULF-1
                is all-wood and Certified (!) to German standards. I am completely
                baffled, as to why anybody would want to take the Flugtag events
                seriously; every flight attempt at Flugtag ends by "landing" your
                hand-made craft in water!
                FWIW, I have a few thousand hours of soaring airtime (none of it
                in sailplanes), flying the Rocky Mountains of Utah with a monoplane
                rigid wing (tailless hang glider) called the Fledgling. I have made
                flights over six hours long, and soared well above the limits of oxygen
                (yeah, I carry oxygen).

                http://www.xmission .com/~red/ history/fledge2. jpg

                Flugtag, eat your heart out... :-)
                --
                If there is an "A" in my email address,
                please delete the A to respond.
                Cheers,
                Red
                ************ ********* ***
                P.S. Not relevant, but...
                Free advice, and maybe worth the price,
                for new and low-time HG pilots,
                at my website:
                http://www.xmission .com/~red/

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
                [mailto:Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Steve Kroll
                Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:58 PM
                To: Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
                Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag

                Is anybody far enough along with a Goat that we might receive some news
                in that regard?

                Steve


                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.17.20/664 - Release Date: 2/2/2007 3:42 PM
              • red
                August, Yes, the Easy Riser has very poor performance (and other, quite serious drawbacks), but my point is this: even a very poor HG from 30 years ago can
                Message 7 of 19 , Feb 6, 2007
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                  August,
                  Yes, the Easy Riser has very poor performance (and other, quite
                  serious drawbacks), but my point is this: even a very poor HG from 30
                  years ago can out-perform the Flugtag "winner" today.
                  Please do not believe the glide ratio claims from manufacturers.
                  Does your own car get the mileage that the maker claims? I would need
                  to see a few GPS digital tracklogs, from a decent variometer, to believe
                  those numbers. Sink rate is probably more important than glide ratio,
                  anyway, at the speeds we fly.
                  Mike claims that airchair performance is compatible with
                  paragliders and hang gliders, so I would believe that he is talking
                  about sink rates, and not glide ratio. "Performance" in today's gliders
                  would usually be measured as a mix of sink rate, normal glide ratio, top
                  speed glide ratio, and ultimate top speed (Vne). Any single factor
                  would not present a valid picture of the aircraft's total performance.
                  The individual pilot's weight would affect every aspect of that
                  performance, also.
                  I would like to add one vital caution to the Flugtag event: the
                  launch platform is 22 feet (7m) high, and NOBODY should expect *any*
                  glider to recover from a stall within 22 feet. If you launch stalled,
                  then you are going to hit the drink, and rather hard! A stall recovery
                  within 40 to 60 feet (12m to 18m) is absolutely noteworthy; twice that
                  is about normal, for most personal gliders.
                  --
                  If there is an "A" in my email address,
                  please delete the A to respond.
                  Cheers,
                  Red
                  ************************
                  P.S. Not relevant, but...
                  Free advice, and maybe worth the price,
                  for new and low-time HG pilots,
                  at my website:
                  http://www.xmission.com/~red/

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of augusthahn
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 2:29 PM
                  To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag


                  Sorry to get slightly off subject,but I was rather shocked by the low
                  sink rate/ L/d of the easy riser.I would have thought it was much
                  higher?heck the homebuilt weedhopper has a 9-1 ratio ! and I stil
                  have,nt heard the specs on MIkes Goats ??? I,d take a guess maybe 10:1??

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: red
                  To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag
                  Hate to say it, but the Flugtag events give me a pain. First
                  off, nobody is ever going to enter the Flugtag with a Goat, because the
                  Flugtag rules do limit the wingspan to 30 feet (~9m) and the Goat has a
                  36 foot (~11m) wingspan. I have never seen any coverage of the Flugtag
                  events that did not look like living proof that people can not really
                  fly, and all of the entrants are clowns, or crazy, or both. I have a
                  far better opinion of the people who participate in this forum.
                  Okay, now let's get semi-reasonable here. An early (1970's)
                  home-built biplane hang glider is called the Easy Riser. The stock
                  Riser has a 30 foot wingspan. You can expect a six- or eight-to-one
                  glide from the proven Riser design, which puts your distance from launch
                  somewhere between 132 feet (40m) and 176 feet (53m). That beats the
                  last Flugtag "winner" by more than fifty percent!
                  Instead, I would encourage any would-be pilot to construct and
                  enjoy (for many years of flying) the fully-capable and proven soaring
                  aircraft that we call airchairs here, and PLEASE do not attempt the very
                  dangerous cliff-launch, that a Flugtag event requires.
                  Cheers,
                  Red

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Kroll
                  Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:58 PM
                  To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag

                  Is anybody far enough along with a Goat that we might receive some news
                  in that regard?

                  Steve
                • Glenn
                  ... as the puplic knee jerk reaction about about light aviation and home builts especily and their safety record, I,m scared to death to ride on the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Feb 6, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "augusthahn" <augusthahn@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > You tellum Rex ! update me on the commercil? I missed it. As for
                    as the puplic knee jerk reaction about about light aviation and home
                    builts especily and their safety record, I,m scared to death to ride
                    on the freeway.Remember that L.A incindent where the front wheel was
                    all turned around,I marvel at the skill of that pilot for the
                    allmost perfect landing.If the general driving puplic were so
                    trained !! For miles traveled aviation of any kind is much safer
                    then your average auto commute.If the media would give as much
                    attention to auto crashes there would,nt be time for any other
                    news !!!. and it,s not the pilots,it,s the greedy bottom line co,s
                    that are dangerous,I just watched a PBS program about flight
                    something (forgot) and that would give anyone the jeepies !!!
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: rexnstudio@...
                    > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:56 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I saw the commercial for the first time last night. I agree
                    with Red, they are going down the wrong path and doing a great
                    disservice to light aviation. The dumb masses (dumbasses) out there
                    are already scared to death of flying due to media sensationalizing
                    of every forced landing ever made.
                    > If one of the smarter clowns in this event wants to really
                    learn something, come work for me. We'll build something you can be
                    proud of .... and us real pilots won't be pissed off at you.
                    >
                    > Rex
                    >
                    > When are these people going to realize that H.G. is the way to
                    freedom? I doesnt get any better than to fly for hours under cloud
                    streets,and witness the view of what it's like to fly with an eagle
                    for your first time,serving up lift on a platter,only to finnish out
                    the day with great stories,and good food and wine with your fellow
                    pilots.
                    Glenn
                    >
                    >
                    > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                    -----------
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.17.20/664 - Release Date:
                    2/2/2007 3:42 PM
                    >
                  • KARL SCHMIDT
                    Hi everybody I have just reading all the mail interchange you have, and believe that I m learning a lot about comentaries of everybody. I have looked at
                    Message 9 of 19 , Feb 7, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi everybody

                      I have just reading all the mail interchange you have,
                      and believe that I'm learning a lot about comentaries
                      of everybody.
                      I have looked at flugtag and it seems to be a new
                      version of a carnaval. I think that it was made to
                      entertain the mases, and it looks like having the
                      funiest flight is the goal.
                      I have been flying remote controled airplanes since I
                      was a kid, and would like some day to build myselve a
                      flying machine like the goat or a superfloater.
                      Thing is that materials like the spetial aluminium
                      alloy can not be found here in Mexico.
                      I was wondering if constructions methods descibed at
                      www.fovonius.com for a sailplnae could be used to
                      build a glider 1 to 1 scale.
                      It is the vacum baging method utilizing foam, fiber
                      glass, carbon fiber and mylar.
                      Looks to me that this method could be used to build
                      the wings for a glider like the goat ore superfloater,
                      but may be this wings might come out too heavy. What
                      do you think about this??

                      Wish for everybody a good day

                      --- Glenn <mxr.1@...> escribió:

                      > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "augusthahn"
                      > <augusthahn@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > You tellum Rex ! update me on the commercil? I
                      > missed it. As for
                      > as the puplic knee jerk reaction about about light
                      > aviation and home
                      > builts especily and their safety record, I,m scared
                      > to death to ride
                      > on the freeway.Remember that L.A incindent where the
                      > front wheel was
                      > all turned around,I marvel at the skill of that
                      > pilot for the
                      > allmost perfect landing.If the general driving
                      > puplic were so
                      > trained !! For miles traveled aviation of any kind
                      > is much safer
                      > then your average auto commute.If the media would
                      > give as much
                      > attention to auto crashes there would,nt be time for
                      > any other
                      > news !!!. and it,s not the pilots,it,s the greedy
                      > bottom line co,s
                      > that are dangerous,I just watched a PBS program
                      > about flight
                      > something (forgot) and that would give anyone the
                      > jeepies !!!
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: rexnstudio@...
                      > > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 4:56 AM
                      > > Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I saw the commercial for the first time last
                      > night. I agree
                      > with Red, they are going down the wrong path and
                      > doing a great
                      > disservice to light aviation. The dumb masses
                      > (dumbasses) out there
                      > are already scared to death of flying due to media
                      > sensationalizing
                      > of every forced landing ever made.
                      > > If one of the smarter clowns in this event
                      > wants to really
                      > learn something, come work for me. We'll build
                      > something you can be
                      > proud of .... and us real pilots won't be pissed off
                      > at you.
                      > >
                      > > Rex
                      > >
                      > > When are these people going to realize that H.G.
                      > is the way to
                      > freedom? I doesnt get any better than to fly for
                      > hours under cloud
                      > streets,and witness the view of what it's like to
                      > fly with an eagle
                      > for your first time,serving up lift on a
                      > platter,only to finnish out
                      > the day with great stories,and good food and wine
                      > with your fellow
                      > pilots.
                      > Glenn
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      -------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > -----------
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.17.20/664
                      > - Release Date:
                      > 2/2/2007 3:42 PM
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >






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                    • red
                      Karl, Welcome. Yes, it is quite possible to make aircraft of foam and fiberglass, or carbon fiber. Vacuum bagging is not really necessary with full-scale
                      Message 10 of 19 , Feb 7, 2007
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                        Karl,
                        Welcome. Yes, it is quite possible to make aircraft of foam and
                        fiberglass, or carbon fiber. Vacuum bagging is not really necessary
                        with full-scale aircraft, though. Homemade planes such as Burt Rutan's
                        designs have proven the concept.
                        If aluminum suppliers will be a problem there, I believe that
                        USA aircraft parts suppliers such as Wick's or Aircraft Spruce and
                        Specialties could ship the materials needed for your project. Canada
                        produces most of the USA aluminum anyway, so investigate the suppliers
                        there, also; it may be easier and cheaper to buy from Canada, too.
                        Foam construction of aircraft wings will certainly be heavy,
                        compared to normal designs. An all-wood design is quite possible, also.
                        The ULF-1 is a fine example of an all-wood airchair.

                        http://www.ppc.ethz.ch/~peny/sf/ulf/welcome.html

                        http://www.eel.de/english/ulf-1_description.htm

                        We are always glad to hear of new projects here. Let us know
                        more about yours, as you make decisions about materials and designs.
                        --
                        If there is an "A" in my email address,
                        please delete the A to respond.
                        Cheers,
                        Red
                        ************************
                        P.S. Not relevant, but...
                        Free advice, and maybe worth the price,
                        for new and low-time HG pilots,
                        at my website:
                        http://www.xmission.com/~red/


                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of KARL SCHMIDT
                        > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:01 AM
                        > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag
                        >
                        >
                        > Hi everybody
                        >
                        > I have just reading all the mail interchange you have,
                        > and believe that I'm learning a lot about comentaries
                        > of everybody.
                        > I have looked at flugtag and it seems to be a new
                        > version of a carnaval. I think that it was made to
                        > entertain the mases, and it looks like having the
                        > funiest flight is the goal.
                        > I have been flying remote controled airplanes since I
                        > was a kid, and would like some day to build myselve a
                        > flying machine like the goat or a superfloater.
                        > Thing is that materials like the spetial aluminium
                        > alloy can not be found here in Mexico.
                        > I was wondering if constructions methods descibed at
                        > www.fovonius.com for a sailplnae could be used to build a
                        > glider 1 to 1 scale. It is the vacum baging method utilizing
                        > foam, fiber glass, carbon fiber and mylar. Looks to me that
                        > this method could be used to build the wings for a glider
                        > like the goat ore superfloater, but may be this wings might
                        > come out too heavy. What do you think about this??
                        >
                        > Wish for everybody a good day
                      • AUGUST HAHN
                        Thanks for the feed back Rex.your right it,s a combination of factors.As for the fultag it,s just a curcus side show,no real motive except for laughs. ...
                        Message 11 of 19 , Feb 7, 2007
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                          Thanks for the feed back Rex.your right it,s a combination of factors.As for the fultag it,s just a curcus side show,no real motive except for laughs.

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: red <red@...>
                          To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2007 5:13:16 PM
                          Subject: RE: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag

                          August,
                          Yes, the Easy Riser has very poor performance (and other, quite
                          serious drawbacks), but my point is this: even a very poor HG from 30
                          years ago can out-perform the Flugtag "winner" today.
                          Please do not believe the glide ratio claims from manufacturers.
                          Does your own car get the mileage that the maker claims? I would need
                          to see a few GPS digital tracklogs, from a decent variometer, to believe
                          those numbers. Sink rate is probably more important than glide ratio,
                          anyway, at the speeds we fly.
                          Mike claims that airchair performance is compatible with
                          paragliders and hang gliders, so I would believe that he is talking
                          about sink rates, and not glide ratio. "Performance" in today's gliders
                          would usually be measured as a mix of sink rate, normal glide ratio, top
                          speed glide ratio, and ultimate top speed (Vne). Any single factor
                          would not present a valid picture of the aircraft's total performance.
                          The individual pilot's weight would affect every aspect of that
                          performance, also.
                          I would like to add one vital caution to the Flugtag event: the
                          launch platform is 22 feet (7m) high, and NOBODY should expect *any*
                          glider to recover from a stall within 22 feet. If you launch stalled,
                          then you are going to hit the drink, and rather hard! A stall recovery
                          within 40 to 60 feet (12m to 18m) is absolutely noteworthy; twice that
                          is about normal, for most personal gliders.
                          --
                          If there is an "A" in my email address,
                          please delete the A to respond.
                          Cheers,
                          Red
                          ************ ********* ***
                          P.S. Not relevant, but...
                          Free advice, and maybe worth the price,
                          for new and low-time HG pilots,
                          at my website:
                          http://www.xmission .com/~red/

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
                          [mailto:Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of augusthahn
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 2:29 PM
                          To: Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag

                          Sorry to get slightly off subject,but I was rather shocked by the low
                          sink rate/ L/d of the easy riser.I would have thought it was much
                          higher?heck the homebuilt weedhopper has a 9-1 ratio ! and I stil
                          have,nt heard the specs on MIkes Goats ??? I,d take a guess maybe 10:1??

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: red
                          To: Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: RE: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag
                          Hate to say it, but the Flugtag events give me a pain. First
                          off, nobody is ever going to enter the Flugtag with a Goat, because the
                          Flugtag rules do limit the wingspan to 30 feet (~9m) and the Goat has a
                          36 foot (~11m) wingspan. I have never seen any coverage of the Flugtag
                          events that did not look like living proof that people can not really
                          fly, and all of the entrants are clowns, or crazy, or both. I have a
                          far better opinion of the people who participate in this forum.
                          Okay, now let's get semi-reasonable here. An early (1970's)
                          home-built biplane hang glider is called the Easy Riser. The stock
                          Riser has a 30 foot wingspan. You can expect a six- or eight-to-one
                          glide from the proven Riser design, which puts your distance from launch
                          somewhere between 132 feet (40m) and 176 feet (53m). That beats the
                          last Flugtag "winner" by more than fifty percent!
                          Instead, I would encourage any would-be pilot to construct and
                          enjoy (for many years of flying) the fully-capable and proven soaring
                          aircraft that we call airchairs here, and PLEASE do not attempt the very
                          dangerous cliff-launch, that a Flugtag event requires.
                          Cheers,
                          Red

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
                          [mailto:Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Steve Kroll
                          Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 5:58 PM
                          To: Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
                          Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag

                          Is anybody far enough along with a Goat that we might receive some news
                          in that regard?

                          Steve


                        • AUGUST HAHN
                          Oh OH OH you have me on the floor with the news ferrents,it,s the number one rule,if it bleeds it leads ! ... From: rexnstudio@aol.com
                          Message 12 of 19 , Feb 7, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Oh OH OH you have me on the floor with the news ferrents,it,s the number one rule,if it bleeds it leads !

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: "rexnstudio@..." <rexnstudio@...>
                            To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2007 2:52:49 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: Flugtag

                            In a message dated 2/6/2007 4:17:27 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, augusthahn@sbcgloba l.net writes:
                            Remember that L.A incindent where the front wheel was all turned around,I marvel at the skill of that pilot for the allmost perfect landing.
                            Actually, the on-board computer / fly by wire system in that particular aircraft (cant recall) is designed to turn the nose gear 90 degrees to the flight path in the event of a failure in the system. The pilot is relieved of the burden of overpowering an unusable or off-axis nose gear, and can use brakes & rudder to steer to a stop. The nose gear strut is designed for the added load, although the rim & tire pretty much end up a sliding wad of molten goo within a few seconds of contact with the runway. Never-the-less, it was a sight to see. The commentary by the news-ferrets was really maddening though. They use terms like "stall" when refering to the engines, & countless other little aviation "facts" about which they know NOTHING ....   Aarrghhhhh!!
                            Rex

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