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Re: [Airchairgroup] From the moderator

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  • mike johnson
    I like the full span aileron idea. It would make things things easier ( less parts). And if the roll rate gets out of hand you can limit the throw. kmatti2001
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
      I like the full span aileron idea. It would make things things easier ( less parts). And if the roll rate gets out of hand you can limit the throw.

      kmatti2001 <zeuson@...> wrote:
      Sorry, I've been gone for the last week.  The offensive emails have
      been deleted.  I will continue to do that and delete them from
      membership.  If it gets worse, then I will try the screening new
      members idea.

      Wings.  I have plans for the Petit Breezy and I thnk it would be a
      very easy matter to scale them for an airchair.  Mike, what size
      tubing did you use for the Goat?  By my figures it would seem 2"
      X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2" trailing edge would still give a 6 g
      ultimate at a 450 pound gross weight.  Should be plenty strong.  I
      guess there would need to be at least one splice probably to make the
      last six feet of the eighteen foot wing.  Also, anybody think there
      would be any significant loss in strentgh by having an additional
      splice at the eight foot point?  That way you could order eight foot
      lengths of tubing and ship them UPS instead of motor freight.  I am
      also thinking of using full span ailerons so I don't have to mess
      with control lines.  Plan is to connect the tail support cables at
      the jury strut locations.  What do you guys think?  Will it adversely
      affect the main struts ability to carry the wing loads.

      I am planning of building my monowing airchair using 2" X 2" 6061-T6
      square tubing for the fuslage.  I'm not planning on making the fuse
      foldable, because it will easily fit in the back of my truck. 
      Resting on the rear upright tube it won't stick up more than four
      feet either.

      Ken



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    • Steve
      ... easier ( less parts). And if the roll rate gets out of hand you can limit the throw. ... week. The offensive emails have ... the ... foot ... adversely
      Message 2 of 12 , Jun 2, 2003
        --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, mike johnson
        <airchairinmj@y...> wrote:
        > I like the full span aileron idea. It would make things things
        easier ( less parts). And if the roll rate gets out of hand you can
        limit the throw.
        >
        > kmatti2001 <zeuson@d...> wrote:Sorry, I've been gone for the last
        week. The offensive emails have
        > been deleted. I will continue to do that and delete them from
        > membership. If it gets worse, then I will try the screening new
        > members idea.
        >
        > Wings. I have plans for the Petit Breezy and I thnk it would be a
        > very easy matter to scale them for an airchair. Mike, what size
        > tubing did you use for the Goat? By my figures it would seem 2"
        > X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2" trailing edge would still give a 6 g
        > ultimate at a 450 pound gross weight. Should be plenty strong. I
        > guess there would need to be at least one splice probably to make
        the
        > last six feet of the eighteen foot wing. Also, anybody think there
        > would be any significant loss in strentgh by having an additional
        > splice at the eight foot point? That way you could order eight
        foot
        > lengths of tubing and ship them UPS instead of motor freight. I am
        > also thinking of using full span ailerons so I don't have to mess
        > with control lines. Plan is to connect the tail support cables at
        > the jury strut locations. What do you guys think? Will it
        adversely
        > affect the main struts ability to carry the wing loads.
        >
        > I am planning of building my monowing airchair using 2" X 2" 6061-
        T6
        > square tubing for the fuslage. I'm not planning on making the fuse
        > foldable, because it will easily fit in the back of my truck.
        > Resting on the rear upright tube it won't stick up more than four
        > feet either.
        >
        > Ken
        >
        >
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        >
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        > Airchairgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      • Perry Cox
        Am I missing something, or did Steve just post a blank message. I could not tell from the subject line. (which is really easy ot change to refect the real
        Message 3 of 12 , Jun 3, 2003
          Am I missing something, or did Steve just post a blank message.  I could not tell from the subject line.  (which is really easy ot change to refect the real content)?

          Steve <muso2080@...> wrote:
          --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, mike johnson
          <airchairinmj@y...> wrote:
          > I like the full span aileron idea. It would make things things
          easier ( less parts). And if the roll rate gets out of hand you can
          limit the throw.
          >
          > kmatti2001 <zeuson@d...> wrote:Sorry, I've been gone for the last
          week.  The offensive emails have
          > been deleted.  I will continue to do that and delete them from
          > membership.  If it gets worse, then I will try the screening new
          > members idea.
          >
          > Wings.  I have plans for the Petit Breezy and I thnk it would be a
          > very easy matter to scale them for an airchair.  Mike, what size
          > tubing did you use for the Goat?  By my figures it would seem 2"
          > X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2" trailing edge would still give a 6 g
          > ultimate at a 450 pound gross weight.  Should be plenty strong.  I
          > guess there would need to be at least one splice probably to make
          the
          > last six feet of the eighteen foot wing.  Also, anybody think there
          > would be any significant loss in strentgh by having an additional
          > splice at the eight foot point?  That way you could order eight
          foot
          > lengths of tubing and ship them UPS instead of motor freight.  I am
          > also thinking of using full span ailerons so I don't have to mess
          > with control lines.  Plan is to connect the tail support cables at
          > the jury strut locations.  What do you guys think?  Will it
          adversely
          > affect the main struts ability to carry the wing loads.
          >
          > I am planning of building my monowing airchair using 2" X 2" 6061-
          T6
          > square tubing for the fuslage.  I'm not planning on making the fuse
          > foldable, because it will easily fit in the back of my truck. 
          > Resting on the rear upright tube it won't stick up more than four
          > feet either.
          >
          > Ken
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
          >
          > Link to Airchair main page for archives, files and photos
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > Airchairgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
          >
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          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/


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        • scottperkinsusa
          wrote: From: kmatti2001 By my figures it would seem 2 X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2 trailing edge would still give a 6 g ultimate at a 450
          Message 4 of 12 , Jun 4, 2003
            wrote:
            From: "kmatti2001" <zeuson@d...>
            By my figures it would seem 2" X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2"
            trailing edge would still give a 6 g ultimate at a 450 pound gross
            weight.
            ----------------------------------
            Ken-
            where/how are you getting your numbers? It is nearly impossible
            to do an accurate stress analysis on tubes with holes in them ? ? ?

            Scott
          • kmatti2001
            Well, that s a good point Scott. Those figures are from diagrahms that don t account for holes. Just represent how much weight a certain length of a certain
            Message 5 of 12 , Jun 4, 2003
              Well, that's a good point Scott.

              Those figures are from diagrahms that don't account for holes. Just
              represent how much weight a certain length of a certain tube can
              carry. I'm no engineer, so I wouldn't know how to figure those in.
              Hence the question to Mike. Holes on the top and bottom of the spars
              would seem to decrease the strenthg of the tubes, but would holes on
              the side do much damage? Would be easy to see if it worked or not by
              building a wing and loading it up with sand bags. Probably isn't
              that simple I suppose if you need to figure vibration and such.
              Seems like many of the manufacturers do a load test to prove their
              wings can carry the figured g's/weight.

              Ken



              --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottperkinsusa" <2scott@b...>
              wrote:
              > wrote:
              > From: "kmatti2001" <zeuson@d...>
              > By my figures it would seem 2" X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2"
              > trailing edge would still give a 6 g ultimate at a 450 pound gross
              > weight.
              > ----------------------------------
              > Ken-
              > where/how are you getting your numbers? It is nearly impossible
              > to do an accurate stress analysis on tubes with holes in them ? ? ?
              >
              > Scott
            • mike johnson
              Don t forget the tube is also being supported by struts and cables. kmatti2001 wrote:Well, that s a good point Scott. Those figures are
              Message 6 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
                Don't forget the tube is also being supported by struts and cables.

                kmatti2001 <zeuson@...> wrote:
                Well, that's a good point Scott.

                Those figures are from diagrahms that don't account for holes.  Just
                represent how much weight a certain length of a certain tube can
                carry. I'm no engineer, so I wouldn't know how to figure those in. 
                Hence the question to Mike.  Holes on the top and bottom of the spars
                would seem to decrease the strenthg of the tubes, but would holes on
                the side do much damage?  Would be easy to see if it worked or not by
                building a wing and loading it up with sand bags.  Probably isn't
                that simple I suppose if you need to figure vibration and such. 
                Seems like many of the manufacturers do a load test to prove their
                wings can carry the figured g's/weight.

                Ken



                --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottperkinsusa" <2scott@b...>
                wrote:
                > wrote:
                > From:   "kmatti2001" <zeuson@d...>
                >  By my figures it would seem 2" X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2"
                >  trailing edge would still give a 6 g ultimate at a 450 pound gross
                >  weight.
                > ----------------------------------
                > Ken-
                > where/how are you getting your numbers?   It is nearly impossible
                > to do an accurate stress analysis on tubes with holes in them ? ? ?
                >
                > Scott



                Link to Airchair main page for archives, files and photos
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/


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              • kmatti2001
                Yes, the figures used were based on the first 12 being supported by a strut. It is the outer 6 that have support on only one side and is the weaker link. I
                Message 7 of 12 , Jun 5, 2003
                  Yes, the figures used were based on the first 12' being supported by
                  a strut. It is the outer 6' that have support on only one side and
                  is the weaker link.

                  I think there is plenty of examples of ultralights with tube and
                  fabric wings, both strut and wire supported, that have withstood the
                  flight loads that would be anticipated if keep within placarded speed
                  limits. Some have bolts through the top and some through the side,
                  but they are typically 32' or less in wingspan, so 36' is not as
                  common. There is also the torsional or twisting element whcih is
                  probably more pronouced with a longer wingspan. I've looked at the
                  super floater and it doesn't seem to have any extra support along
                  those lines, but does has a long wingspan. The uncertainties are
                  definately there, hence probably the reason Mike has set up his nifty
                  parachute deployment system. I have a good used HG parachute that I
                  will use. Suggest everyone get one. You can get them used and in
                  good shape for under $400 and they are not difficult to pack with
                  some instruction.

                  Ken


                  --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, mike johnson
                  <airchairinmj@y...> wrote:
                  > Don't forget the tube is also being supported by struts and cables.
                  >
                  > kmatti2001 <zeuson@d...> wrote:Well, that's a good point Scott.
                  >
                  > Those figures are from diagrahms that don't account for holes.
                  Just
                  > represent how much weight a certain length of a certain tube can
                  > carry. I'm no engineer, so I wouldn't know how to figure those in.
                  > Hence the question to Mike. Holes on the top and bottom of the
                  spars
                  > would seem to decrease the strenthg of the tubes, but would holes
                  on
                  > the side do much damage? Would be easy to see if it worked or not
                  by
                  > building a wing and loading it up with sand bags. Probably isn't
                  > that simple I suppose if you need to figure vibration and such.
                  > Seems like many of the manufacturers do a load test to prove their
                  > wings can carry the figured g's/weight.
                  >
                  > Ken
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottperkinsusa"
                  <2scott@b...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > wrote:
                  > > From: "kmatti2001" <zeuson@d...>
                  > > By my figures it would seem 2" X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2"
                  > > trailing edge would still give a 6 g ultimate at a 450 pound
                  gross
                  > > weight.
                  > > ----------------------------------
                  > > Ken-
                  > > where/how are you getting your numbers? It is nearly impossible
                  > > to do an accurate stress analysis on tubes with holes in
                  them ? ? ?
                  > >
                  > > Scott
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > Link to Airchair main page for archives, files and photos
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > Airchairgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
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                  > Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                • poirier1945
                  ... part of the country or in the south-east Canada region. In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, scottperkinsusa
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jun 29, 2003
                    ---I would like to know where to buy aluminum tubes in the north east
                    part of the country or in the south-east Canada region.

                    In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottperkinsusa" <2scott@b...>
                    wrote:
                    > wrote:
                    > From: "kmatti2001" <zeuson@d...>
                    > By my figures it would seem 2" X .058 leading edge and 1-1/2"
                    > trailing edge would still give a 6 g ultimate at a 450 pound gross
                    > weight.
                    > ----------------------------------
                    > Ken-
                    > where/how are you getting your numbers? It is nearly impossible
                    > to do an accurate stress analysis on tubes with holes in them ? ? ?
                    >
                    > Scott
                  • Dan Leech
                    Dillsburg Aeroplane Works... Bought all my Affordaplane materials there. Dan Leech Alliance, Ohio EAA Chapter 82 ... __________________________________ Do you
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jun 29, 2003
                      Dillsburg Aeroplane Works...
                      Bought all my Affordaplane materials there.

                      Dan Leech
                      Alliance, Ohio
                      EAA Chapter 82


                      --- poirier1945 <poirier1945@...> wrote:
                      > ---I would like to know where to buy aluminum tubes
                      > in the north east
                      > part of the country or in the south-east Canada
                      > region.
                      >
                      > In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "scottperkinsusa"
                      > <2scott@b...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > wrote:
                      > > From: "kmatti2001" <zeuson@d...>
                      > > By my figures it would seem 2" X .058 leading
                      > edge and 1-1/2"
                      > > trailing edge would still give a 6 g ultimate at
                      > a 450 pound gross
                      > > weight.
                      > > ----------------------------------
                      > > Ken-
                      > > where/how are you getting your numbers? It is
                      > nearly impossible
                      > > to do an accurate stress analysis on tubes with
                      > holes in them ? ? ?
                      > >
                      > > Scott
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                      >
                      > Link to Airchair main page for archives, files and
                      > photos
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > Airchairgroup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >


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