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Re: Question about brackets and braces

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  • simflyingkid
    Hello Friends, I hope that it wasn´t late, but maybe You could use free ZWCAD: http://www.zwcad.org/products_detail.php?id=117 Regards, Jiri
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 1, 2011
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      Hello Friends,

      I hope that it wasn´t late, but maybe You could use free ZWCAD:

      http://www.zwcad.org/products_detail.php?id=117

      Regards, Jiri


      --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "red" <red@...> wrote:
      > David,
      >
      > That looks good. Tell us again, which CAD are you using? How much does it cost?
      >
      > Just a couple of points of interest, maybe . . .
      >
      > Brackets mounted to the side of a tube will produce a cumulative "looseness" in the completed structure. Brackets which mount "vertically" on a tube (tube axis not perpendicular to the airframe bolt axis) will produce a more a solid feel with the completed structure.
      >
      > Brackets are typically mounted to round tubes with a mating "saddle" of aluminum or tough plastic. The flat side of the saddle mates with the flat bracket, and the curved face is available in common tube sizes. The "disk" of the complete saddle comes in tube diameters also, sometimes called as the O.D. of the saddle. For brackets, choose a diameter large enough to fit the bracket flat face (if possible), with a curved side which fits the airframe tube.
      >
      > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php?query=saddle&searchsubmit=Search&search=1
      >
      > Two saddles can be used, flat-to-flat, to join two round tubes with one bolt, using no bracket. The bolt will be perpendicular to the axis of each tube.
      >
      > A saddle can be used on each side of a tube, within a bracket (U-channel).
      > This is especially good, where the tube normally pivots on the bolt in the bracket; Delrin washers will do the same job, though.
      >
      > "Standoff" saddles are similar to common saddles, but thicker between the flat and curved faces.
      >
      > Cheers,
      > Red
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com]
      > On Behalf Of nzdavo
      > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 4:20 AM
      > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Question about brackets and braces
      >
      > Hi Mike and all
      >
      > Just thought I'd show the work-around I was thinking of using. Does this look ok? (Using an offset bracket instead of flattening the tube) I mounted it horizontally but could just as easily mount it vertically.
      >
      > (See bracket 3.jpg here -
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/files/Goat4-3D-CAD/)
      >
      > Cheers
      > David
    • nzdavo
      Hi Jiri and Red ZWcad could be an option but I already own Alibre Design so I have gone ahead with this software. The downside is that is has no free viewer.
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 2, 2011
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        Hi Jiri and Red

        ZWcad could be an option but I already own Alibre Design so I have gone ahead with this software. The downside is that is has no free viewer. However there are some free programs out there like hoops viewer that others can download in order to view the finished files.

        Alibre costs about $US1000 but watch their site because they sometimes do crazy deals! I got my full version for just $99!

        Red, sorry for the late reply! I had a good look at the saddle system. It makes a lot of sense. Would there be a danger of the tubes being 'squashed' by tightening the bolts? Could this be overcome by inserting a solid 'plug' inside the tube ends?

        As I mentioned I have gone ahead with the CAD as per Mikes drawings. We had a new daughter born on Wednesday so the CAD will be on hold for a while though!

        Cheers
        David

        --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "simflyingkid" <blue.kid@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Friends,
        >
        > I hope that it wasn´t late, but maybe You could use free ZWCAD:
        >
        > http://www.zwcad.org/products_detail.php?id=117
        >
        > Regards, Jiri
        >
        >
        > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "red" <red@> wrote:
        > > David,
        > >
        > > That looks good. Tell us again, which CAD are you using? How much does it cost?
        > >
        > > Just a couple of points of interest, maybe . . .
        > >
        > > Brackets mounted to the side of a tube will produce a cumulative "looseness" in the completed structure. Brackets which mount "vertically" on a tube (tube axis not perpendicular to the airframe bolt axis) will produce a more a solid feel with the completed structure.
        > >
        > > Brackets are typically mounted to round tubes with a mating "saddle" of aluminum or tough plastic. The flat side of the saddle mates with the flat bracket, and the curved face is available in common tube sizes. The "disk" of the complete saddle comes in tube diameters also, sometimes called as the O.D. of the saddle. For brackets, choose a diameter large enough to fit the bracket flat face (if possible), with a curved side which fits the airframe tube.
        > >
        > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php?query=saddle&searchsubmit=Search&search=1
        > >
        > > Two saddles can be used, flat-to-flat, to join two round tubes with one bolt, using no bracket. The bolt will be perpendicular to the axis of each tube.
        > >
        > > A saddle can be used on each side of a tube, within a bracket (U-channel).
        > > This is especially good, where the tube normally pivots on the bolt in the bracket; Delrin washers will do the same job, though.
        > >
        > > "Standoff" saddles are similar to common saddles, but thicker between the flat and curved faces.
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > > Red
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com]
        > > On Behalf Of nzdavo
        > > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 4:20 AM
        > > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Question about brackets and braces
        > >
        > > Hi Mike and all
        > >
        > > Just thought I'd show the work-around I was thinking of using. Does this look ok? (Using an offset bracket instead of flattening the tube) I mounted it horizontally but could just as easily mount it vertically.
        > >
        > > (See bracket 3.jpg here -
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/files/Goat4-3D-CAD/)
        > >
        > > Cheers
        > > David
        >
      • red
        David, Yes, family first, of course. Congratulations, Daddy! :-) The CAD drawings are a luxury only, and this entire project is really just a hobby. Tubing
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 2, 2011
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          David,

          Yes, family first, of course. Congratulations, Daddy! :-) The
          CAD drawings are a luxury only, and this entire project is really just a
          hobby.

          Tubing *can* indeed be squashed by over-tightening bolts, in these
          aircraft. Everybody should be cautioned, about this danger; a "squashed"
          tube is weakened, somewhat. At the ends of some tubes, this can be done
          intentionally and safely (depending upon the loading of that tube), but
          never in the mid-span of any tube.

          With aircraft, all bolts have friction-locking nuts, or safety
          rings, to secure fasteners. NO aircraft hardware depends upon torque
          values, to secure it. In the past, internal solid plugs or bushings were
          used prevent the "oval-izing" of tubing. Solid plugs can cause trapped
          moisture in tubing. Bushings are fairly critical with installation, require
          larger holes in the structure, and may be questionable in effectiveness.
          Education is a better answer, there.

          Cheers,
          Red

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of nzdavo
          Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 4:07 AM
          To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Question about brackets and braces

          Hi Jiri and Red

          ZWcad could be an option but I already own Alibre Design so I have gone
          ahead with this software. The downside is that is has no free viewer.
          However there are some free programs out there like hoops viewer that others
          can download in order to view the finished files.

          Alibre costs about $US1000 but watch their site because they sometimes do
          crazy deals! I got my full version for just $99!

          Red, sorry for the late reply! I had a good look at the saddle system. It
          makes a lot of sense. Would there be a danger of the tubes being 'squashed'
          by tightening the bolts? Could this be overcome by inserting a solid 'plug'
          inside the tube ends?

          As I mentioned I have gone ahead with the CAD as per Mikes drawings. We had
          a new daughter born on Wednesday so the CAD will be on hold for a while
          though!

          Cheers
          David

          --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "simflyingkid" <blue.kid@...> wrote:
          > Hello Friends,
          > I hope that it wasn´t late, but maybe You could use free ZWCAD:
          >
          > http://www.zwcad.org/products_detail.php?id=117
          >
          > Regards, Jiri
          >
          > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "red" <red@> wrote:
          > > David,
          > > That looks good. Tell us again, which CAD are you using? How much
          > > does it cost?
          > > Just a couple of points of interest, maybe . . .
          > > Brackets mounted to the side of a tube will produce a cumulative
          > > "looseness" in the completed structure. Brackets which mount
          "vertically" on a tube (tube axis not perpendicular to the airframe bolt
          axis) will produce a more a solid feel with the completed structure.
          > > Brackets are typically mounted to round tubes with a mating "saddle"
          > > of aluminum or tough plastic. The flat side of the saddle mates with
          the flat bracket, and the curved face is available in common tube sizes.
          The "disk" of the complete saddle comes in tube diameters also, sometimes
          called as the O.D. of the saddle. For brackets, choose a diameter large
          enough to fit the bracket flat face (if possible), with a curved side which
          fits the airframe tube.
          > >
          > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php?query=saddle&searchs
          > > ubmit=Search&search=1
          > >
          > > Two saddles can be used, flat-to-flat, to join two round tubes with
          > > one bolt, using no bracket. The bolt will be perpendicular to the axis
          of each tube.
          > > A saddle can be used on each side of a tube, within a bracket
          > > (U-channel). This is especially good, where the tube normally pivots
          > > on the bolt in the bracket; Delrin washers will do the same job,
          > > though.
          > > "Standoff" saddles are similar to common saddles, but thicker
          > > between the flat and curved faces.
          > > Cheers,
          > > Red
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com]
          > > On Behalf Of nzdavo
          > > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 4:20 AM
          > > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
          > > Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Question about brackets and braces
          > > Hi Mike and all
          > > Just thought I'd show the work-around I was thinking of using. Does
          > > this look ok? (Using an offset bracket instead of flattening the
          > > tube) I mounted it horizontally but could just as easily mount it
          > > vertically.
          > > (See bracket 3.jpg here -
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/files/Goat4-3D-CAD/)
          > > Cheers
          > > David
        • Paul
          To bend the flat bar or flatten the tube ends, first hold the piece over a burning candle flame. The candle black will blacken the aluminium. Now using a gas
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 3, 2011
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            To bend the flat bar or flatten the tube ends, first hold the piece over a burning candle flame. The candle black will blacken the aluminium. Now using a gas torch heat the piece. When the candle black burns away the piece will be annealed & can be bent. The alu will age harden again once bent.
            Regards
            Paul

            --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "nzdavo" <damoodie@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Jiri and Red
            >
            > ZWcad could be an option but I already own Alibre Design so I have gone ahead with this software. The downside is that is has no free viewer. However there are some free programs out there like hoops viewer that others can download in order to view the finished files.
            >
            > Alibre costs about $US1000 but watch their site because they sometimes do crazy deals! I got my full version for just $99!
            >
            > Red, sorry for the late reply! I had a good look at the saddle system. It makes a lot of sense. Would there be a danger of the tubes being 'squashed' by tightening the bolts? Could this be overcome by inserting a solid 'plug' inside the tube ends?
            >
            > As I mentioned I have gone ahead with the CAD as per Mikes drawings. We had a new daughter born on Wednesday so the CAD will be on hold for a while though!
            >
            > Cheers
            > David
            >
            > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "simflyingkid" <blue.kid@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Friends,
            > >
            > > I hope that it wasn´t late, but maybe You could use free ZWCAD:
            > >
            > > http://www.zwcad.org/products_detail.php?id=117
            > >
            > > Regards, Jiri
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "red" <red@> wrote:
            > > > David,
            > > >
            > > > That looks good. Tell us again, which CAD are you using? How much does it cost?
            > > >
            > > > Just a couple of points of interest, maybe . . .
            > > >
            > > > Brackets mounted to the side of a tube will produce a cumulative "looseness" in the completed structure. Brackets which mount "vertically" on a tube (tube axis not perpendicular to the airframe bolt axis) will produce a more a solid feel with the completed structure.
            > > >
            > > > Brackets are typically mounted to round tubes with a mating "saddle" of aluminum or tough plastic. The flat side of the saddle mates with the flat bracket, and the curved face is available in common tube sizes. The "disk" of the complete saddle comes in tube diameters also, sometimes called as the O.D. of the saddle. For brackets, choose a diameter large enough to fit the bracket flat face (if possible), with a curved side which fits the airframe tube.
            > > >
            > > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/search/search.php?query=saddle&searchsubmit=Search&search=1
            > > >
            > > > Two saddles can be used, flat-to-flat, to join two round tubes with one bolt, using no bracket. The bolt will be perpendicular to the axis of each tube.
            > > >
            > > > A saddle can be used on each side of a tube, within a bracket (U-channel).
            > > > This is especially good, where the tube normally pivots on the bolt in the bracket; Delrin washers will do the same job, though.
            > > >
            > > > "Standoff" saddles are similar to common saddles, but thicker between the flat and curved faces.
            > > >
            > > > Cheers,
            > > > Red
            > > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com]
            > > > On Behalf Of nzdavo
            > > > Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 4:20 AM
            > > > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Question about brackets and braces
            > > >
            > > > Hi Mike and all
            > > >
            > > > Just thought I'd show the work-around I was thinking of using. Does this look ok? (Using an offset bracket instead of flattening the tube) I mounted it horizontally but could just as easily mount it vertically.
            > > >
            > > > (See bracket 3.jpg here -
            > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Airchairgroup/files/Goat4-3D-CAD/)
            > > >
            > > > Cheers
            > > > David
            > >
            >
          • Phils
            Really !? this seems a very simple way to get it right. Do you have a source reference ?
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 3, 2011
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              Really !? this seems a very simple way to get it right. Do you have a source reference ?

              --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulsabatier@...> wrote:
              >
              > To bend the flat bar or flatten the tube ends, first hold the piece over a burning candle flame. The candle black will blacken the aluminium. Now using a gas torch heat the piece. When the candle black burns away the piece will be annealed & can be bent. The alu will age harden again once bent.
              > Regards
              > Paul
              >
            • Gary Gower
              Is not that I dont believe what you say, but....   :-)  :-)  :-)   Sorry Phils,  couldnt stop it... Gary. ... From: Phils
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 4, 2011
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                Is not that I dont believe what you say, but....   :-)  :-)  :-)  

                Sorry Phils,  couldnt stop it...

                Gary.

                --- On Sun, 7/3/11, Phils <philsconcepts@...> wrote:

                From: Phils <philsconcepts@...>
                Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Question about brackets and braces
                To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 5:47 PM

                 

                Really !? this seems a very simple way to get it right. Do you have a source reference ?

                --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulsabatier@...> wrote:
                >
                > To bend the flat bar or flatten the tube ends, first hold the piece over a burning candle flame. The candle black will blacken the aluminium. Now using a gas torch heat the piece. When the candle black burns away the piece will be annealed & can be bent. The alu will age harden again once bent.
                > Regards
                > Paul
                >

              • Riley
                It is a well established method. I use the acetylene torch set rich to soot up the part. Then, be careful and heat it slowly and evenly until the soot burns
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 5, 2011
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                  It is a well established method. I use the acetylene torch set rich to
                  soot up the part. Then, be careful and heat it slowly and evenly until
                  the soot burns away, and stop. Also, this is best done with
                  "precipitation hardening alloys," like 6061-T6. It will re-harden at
                  room temperature over a period of several days. If you keep it in the
                  freezer, it will remain soft.

                  This technique is used in what are called "refrigerator rivets." They
                  are soft while kept cold, and harden with cold working and aging.
                  Easier to drive, and strong when finished. Have a look at:
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precipitation_hardening

                  Gary

                  On 7/4/2011 10:20 AM, Gary Gower wrote:
                  > Is not that I dont believe what you say, but.... :-) :-) :-)
                  >
                  > Sorry Phils, couldnt stop it...
                  >
                  > Gary.
                  >
                  > --- On *Sun, 7/3/11, Phils /<philsconcepts@...>/* wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Phils <philsconcepts@...>
                  > Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Question about brackets and braces
                  > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 5:47 PM
                  >
                  > Really !? this seems a very simple way to get it right. Do you have
                  > a source reference ?
                  >
                  > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                  > </mc/compose?to=Airchairgroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Paul"
                  > <paulsabatier@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > To bend the flat bar or flatten the tube ends, first hold the
                  > piece over a burning candle flame. The candle black will blacken the
                  > aluminium. Now using a gas torch heat the piece. When the candle
                  > black burns away the piece will be annealed & can be bent. The alu
                  > will age harden again once bent.
                  > > Regards
                  > > Paul
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                • Paul
                  Google is your friend. http://www.metalshapers.org/tips/covell/annealing.shtml http://www.tinmantech.com/html/aluminum_alloys_continued.php Alternative with
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 6, 2011
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                    Google is your friend.

                    http://www.metalshapers.org/tips/covell/annealing.shtml
                    http://www.tinmantech.com/html/aluminum_alloys_continued.php

                    Alternative with soap
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxhdFsrzSmY
                    http://www.technologystudent.com/equip1/heat3.htm

                    Regards
                    Paul

                    --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, Gary Gower <triker_mx@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Is not that I dont believe what you say, but....   :-)  :-)  :-)  
                    > Sorry Phils,  couldnt stop it...
                    > Gary.
                    >
                    > --- On Sun, 7/3/11, Phils <philsconcepts@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Phils <philsconcepts@...>
                    > Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: Question about brackets and braces
                    > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Sunday, July 3, 2011, 5:47 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Really !? this seems a very simple way to get it right. Do you have a source reference ?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Paul" <paulsabatier@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > To bend the flat bar or flatten the tube ends, first hold the piece over a burning candle flame. The candle black will blacken the aluminium. Now using a gas torch heat the piece. When the candle black burns away the piece will be annealed & can be bent. The alu will age harden again once bent.
                    >
                    > > Regards
                    >
                    > > Paul
                    >
                    > >
                    >
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