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Re: [Airchairgroup] An Air Chair in France ?

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  • Jean-Pierre Gazanion
    In France there is an ultralight that meets 5/7 of your requirements : the demoichelle : http://www.pouchel.com/ It cannot be used as a glider and the length
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 1, 2010
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      In France there is  an ultralight that meets 5/7 of your requirements : the demoichelle :
      http://www.pouchel.com/
      It cannot be used as a glider and the length is 5.3 m but it is easy to build. At Le Bourget, during the second Green Paris Airshow, we make the two wings in three days !
      http://picasaweb.google.fr/116645350836839930892 see" Construction LFPB 2010"
      Jean-Pierre

      Le 31/10/2010 17:03, Bob Anderson a écrit :
       

      Hi
      My name is Bob Anderson and I live, far from my native Scotland, in the Alsace region of France, in the shadow of the Vosges mountains.
      I have just been signed off for my French 3 axis ultralight license (the inevitable administration paperwork is on the table by my side ready to be posted off).

      So, what to do now ?
      In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
      In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,

      - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
      - I want to keep costs down,
      - I don't want to spend years building it,
      - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
      - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
      - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
      - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.

      The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma – Bloop, Goat or Bug ?

      The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
      - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
      - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
      - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.

      So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
      Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?

      If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.

      The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
      The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
      I would love to have any info on your progress.

      A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
      Looking forward to your comments.
      Bob



    • Bob Anderson
      Jean-Pierre Thanks for the suggestion but I am already a frequent visitor to http://www.pouchel.com/ When I started looking for a building project, the Pouchel
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 1, 2010
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        Jean-Pierre
        Thanks for the suggestion but I am already a frequent visitor to http://www.pouchel.com/
        When I started looking for a building project, the Pouchel was my first thought (with removable wing tips to fit into my garage) but it's a 2 axis. I then looked at the Demoichelle and I am now impatiently waiting to see the finished Cubchel (inspired by the affordaplane)...
        If I go for a one of Daniel Dalby's creations, I think that it would be the Cubchel rather than the Demoichelle as it seems to me that would be easier to make it bearable for winter use in Alsace. It can get very cold here !!
        It was in fact a comment on the Pouchel Yahoo group (http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/pouchel/message/6438) that sent me to the Bloop page on Mike Sandlin's site in the first place !

        So nothing is decided yet, but learning to glide in an airchair with the security of a backup moter is very tempting !
        Bob


        2010/11/1 Jean-Pierre Gazanion <jeanpierre.gazanion@...>
         

        In France there is  an ultralight that meets 5/7 of your requirements : the demoichelle :
        http://www.pouchel.com/
        It cannot be used as a glider and the length is 5.3 m but it is easy to build. At Le Bourget, during the second Green Paris Airshow, we make the two wings in three days !
        http://picasaweb.google.fr/116645350836839930892 see" Construction LFPB 2010"
        Jean-Pierre

        Le 31/10/2010 17:03, Bob Anderson a écrit :

         

        Hi
        My name is Bob Anderson and I live, far from my native Scotland, in the Alsace region of France, in the shadow of the Vosges mountains.
        I have just been signed off for my French 3 axis ultralight license (the inevitable administration paperwork is on the table by my side ready to be posted off).

        So, what to do now ?
        In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
        In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,

        - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
        - I want to keep costs down,
        - I don't want to spend years building it,
        - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
        - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
        - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
        - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.

        The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma – Bloop, Goat or Bug ?

        The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
        - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
        - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
        - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.

        So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
        Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?

        If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.

        The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
        The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
        I would love to have any info on your progress.

        A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
        Looking forward to your comments.
        Bob




      • PROPELLERS@aol.com
        Jean, Thanks for the informative web site. I like the simplicity of the construction. Are you marketing this aircraft? I would enjoy purchasing the plans if in
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 1, 2010
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          Jean, Thanks for the informative web site. I like the simplicity of the construction. Are you marketing this aircraft? I would enjoy purchasing the plans if in English.
           
          It appears this is a kit or did you precut all parts in advance. What is the adhesive you are using to attach parts to the spar? Do you know the alloy and dimensions of the spar? Since most attachment and sealing systems melt foam, are you using a water based system for the fabric? I can't quite tell how the trailing edge is attached to the foam rib, is there a piece of wood that fits in a slot on the rib then capped with a round or some other means. Also the leading edge material, is it preformed or flat stock?
           
          One of the big drawbacks from the aircraft I constructed is time to manufacture and building a wing is three days would be a great boost to homebuilding.
           

          Lonnie Prince
          CEO/President
          Prince Aircraft Company
          PO Box 2669
          6774 Providence Street
          Whitehouse, Ohio 43571
          Tel. (419)877-5557
          Fax (419)877-5564
          lonnie@...
          www.princeaircraft.com
        • Jean-Pierre Gazanion
          I am only a builder of a pouchel and help the association APEV when they have to promote their aircraft. You have all information on the site http://
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 1, 2010
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            I am only a builder of a pouchel and help the association APEV when they have to promote their aircraft. You have all information on the site http:// www.pouchel.com.
            The APEV have a kit of all the part except the engine, instrumentation and covering.
            The fabric is DIATEX  http://www.diatex.com/
            At the trailing edge their is a rond of wood and the front and leading edge are preformed composite.
            The facility of building the wings is due to the mobile wings system. The Demoichelle do not have ailerons, the control is made by a differential wing rotation (+2°, -4°) and their is only one spar using 50x100mm aluminium extrusion.
            If you see http://picasaweb.google.fr/116645350836839930892 album Construction LFPB 2010 you will se that the adhésive is PolyUrethane
            Jean-Pierre

            Le 01/11/2010 21:11, PROPELLERS@... a écrit :
            Jean, Thanks for the informative web site. I like the simplicity of the construction. Are you marketing this aircraft? I would enjoy purchasing the plans if in English.
             
            It appears this is a kit or did you precut all parts in advance. What is the adhesive you are using to attach parts to the spar? Do you know the alloy and dimensions of the spar? Since most attachment and sealing systems melt foam, are you using a water based system for the fabric? I can't quite tell how the trailing edge is attached to the foam rib, is there a piece of wood that fits in a slot on the rib then capped with a round or some other means. Also the leading edge material, is it preformed or flat stock?
             
            One of the big drawbacks from the aircraft I constructed is time to manufacture and building a wing is three days would be a great boost to homebuilding.
             

            Lonnie Prince
            CEO/President
            Prince Aircraft Company
            PO Box 2669
            6774 Providence Street
            Whitehouse, Ohio 43571
            Tel. (419)877-5557
            Fax (419)877-5564
            lonnie@...
            www.princeaircraft.com
          • PROPELLERS@aol.com
            Thank you for the responce. Lonnie Prince CEO/President Prince Aircraft Company PO Box 2669 6774 Providence Street Whitehouse, Ohio 43571 Tel. (419)877-5557
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 2, 2010
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              Thank you for the responce.
               

              Lonnie Prince
              CEO/President
              Prince Aircraft Company
              PO Box 2669
              6774 Providence Street
              Whitehouse, Ohio 43571
              Tel. (419)877-5557
              Fax (419)877-5564
              lonnie@...
              www.princeaircraft.com
            • ¹Î¼®
              This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want. My airplane is still in development, so I don t have many answers. My real emphasis with the Bloop
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 3, 2010
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                This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want.
                My airplane is still in development, so I don't have many
                answers.

                My real emphasis with the Bloop is on low airspeed,
                low power flying, which makes it a kind of specialty
                aircraft. I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed,
                cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even
                quick dissassembly.

                More news: went to full power, etc. see Bloop Page.

                I would like to know why two axis control is okay for
                paragliders but not airplanes. Is it just that no really
                impressive use of two axis airplane controls has come along?

                Mike Sandlin....San Diego California

                --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Anderson" <bob@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi
                > My name is Bob Anderson ...
                >
                > So, what to do now ?
                > In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
                > In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,
                >
                > - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
                > - I want to keep costs down,
                > - I don't want to spend years building it,
                > - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
                > - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
                > - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
                > - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.
                >
                > The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma – Bloop, Goat or Bug ?
                >
                > The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
                > - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
                > - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
                > - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.
                >
                > So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
                > Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?
                >
                > If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.
                >
                > The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
                > The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
                > I would love to have any info on your progress.
                >
                > A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
                > Looking forward to your comments.
                > Bob
                >
              • Bob Anderson
                Mike Thanks for your reply and the news on the Bloop page. Both here and on your site, you have, I think, answered a couple of my questions. On the site you
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 4, 2010
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                  Mike
                  Thanks for your reply and the news on the Bloop page.
                  Both here and on your site, you have, I think, answered a couple of my questions.
                  On the site you wrote :
                  "One time I cut the power suddenly and dropped onto the wheels surprisingly fast, doing a little bounce. I didn't expect an engine this small (15 hp.) to produce such a dramatic response to a power cut. High drag is part of this, of course. The Bloop is, indeed, a flying bird cage with a built in headwind."
                  Here you wrote :
                  "I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed, 
                  cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even 
                  quick dissassembly."

                  To tell you the truth, Mike, I am really taken with the idea of learning to fly an ultralight glider ! 
                  I can't use one of yours in France without putting a small low powered engine onto it and calling it a powered microlight. If I do that, the engine is just for getting to the soaring "zone" and the glider has got to retain its performance when the engine is cut.
                  I also want to keep it at home so it would be assembled before and disassembled after each flight.

                  A "Motor Goat" would seem a better bet than the Bloop. The motor tucked in behind the pilot should create less drag and if the prop can be aligned vertically when it is stopped, so much the better. It would also be easier to disassemble with the engine attached to the front section.
                  Just a question mark about the prop wash on the tail...

                  As for the 2 axis versus 3 axis question, the answer from my point of view is simple.
                  I am told that 2 axis are easier and safer to fly but as I will continue (from time to time) to fly a conventional 3 axis microlight such as the Skyranger, it seems to me to be simpler if I have the same type of controls on the glider. 
                  And of course, I don't know how to land a 2 axis plane in a crosswind !

                  Bob Anderson Colmar France

                  2010/11/3 ¹Î¼® <ms7525@...>
                   



                  This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want.
                  My airplane is still in development, so I don't have many
                  answers.

                  My real emphasis with the Bloop is on low airspeed,
                  low power flying, which makes it a kind of specialty
                  aircraft. I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed,
                  cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even
                  quick dissassembly.

                  More news: went to full power, etc. see Bloop Page.

                  I would like to know why two axis control is okay for
                  paragliders but not airplanes. Is it just that no really
                  impressive use of two axis airplane controls has come along?

                  Mike Sandlin....San Diego California



                  --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Anderson" <bob@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi
                  > My name is Bob Anderson ...
                  >
                  > So, what to do now ?
                  > In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
                  > In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,
                  >
                  > - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
                  > - I want to keep costs down,
                  > - I don't want to spend years building it,
                  > - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
                  > - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
                  > - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
                  > - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.
                  >
                  > The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma – Bloop, Goat or Bug ?
                  >
                  > The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
                  > - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
                  > - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
                  > - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.
                  >
                  > So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
                  > Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?
                  >
                  > If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.
                  >
                  > The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
                  > The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
                  > I would love to have any info on your progress.
                  >
                  > A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
                  > Looking forward to your comments.
                  > Bob
                  >


                • Gary Gower
                  Hello Bob,   When time comes for me to build my Goat...  (Need first to finish a couple of projects to get space),   I am planning to build some suport
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 4, 2010
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                    Hello Bob,
                     
                    When time comes for me to build my Goat...  (Need first to finish a couple of projects to get space),
                     
                    I am planning to build some suport behind the seat back to "fast bolt" a portable powered parachute engine, the ones that strap to the back of the pilot. There are some good ones around 20 HP.
                     
                    Yes a powered Goat could be great.   I dont see too much drag of the stoped propeller in a Goat...  But sure can be easy aligned to the "fuselage".
                     
                    Probably my next year project, 
                     
                    Gary.
                     

                    --- On Thu, 11/4/10, Bob Anderson <bob@...> wrote:

                    From: Bob Anderson <bob@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France ?
                    To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 7:58 PM

                     
                    Mike
                    Thanks for your reply and the news on the Bloop page.
                    Both here and on your site, you have, I think, answered a couple of my questions.
                    On the site you wrote :
                    "One time I cut the power suddenly and dropped onto the wheels surprisingly fast, doing a little bounce. I didn't expect an engine this small (15 hp.) to produce such a dramatic response to a power cut. High drag is part of this, of course. The Bloop is, indeed, a flying bird cage with a built in headwind."
                    Here you wrote :
                    "I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed, 
                    cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even 
                    quick dissassembly."

                    To tell you the truth, Mike, I am really taken with the idea of learning to fly an ultralight glider ! 
                    I can't use one of yours in France without putting a small low powered engine onto it and calling it a powered microlight. If I do that, the engine is just for getting to the soaring "zone" and the glider has got to retain its performance when the engine is cut.
                    I also want to keep it at home so it would be assembled before and disassembled after each flight.

                    A "Motor Goat" would seem a better bet than the Bloop. The motor tucked in behind the pilot should create less drag and if the prop can be aligned vertically when it is stopped, so much the better. It would also be easier to disassemble with the engine attached to the front section.
                    Just a question mark about the prop wash on the tail...

                    As for the 2 axis versus 3 axis question, the answer from my point of view is simple.
                    I am told that 2 axis are easier and safer to fly but as I will continue (from time to time) to fly a conventional 3 axis microlight such as the Skyranger, it seems to me to be simpler if I have the same type of controls on the glider. 
                    And of course, I don't know how to land a 2 axis plane in a crosswind !

                    Bob Anderson Colmar France

                    2010/11/3 ¹Î¼® <ms7525@...>
                     


                    This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want.
                    My airplane is still in development, so I don't have many
                    answers.

                    My real emphasis with the Bloop is on low airspeed,
                    low power flying, which makes it a kind of specialty
                    aircraft. I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed,
                    cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even
                    quick dissassembly.

                    More news: went to full power, etc. see Bloop Page.

                    I would like to know why two axis control is okay for
                    paragliders but not airplanes. Is it just that no really
                    impressive use of two axis airplane controls has come along?

                    Mike Sandlin....San Diego California


                    --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Anderson" <bob@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi
                    > My name is Bob Anderson ...
                    >
                    > So, what to do now ?
                    > In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
                    > In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,
                    >
                    > - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
                    > - I want to keep costs down,
                    > - I don't want to spend years building it,
                    > - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
                    > - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
                    > - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
                    > - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.
                    >
                    > The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma – Bloop, Goat or Bug ?
                    >
                    > The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
                    > - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
                    > - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
                    > - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.
                    >
                    > So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
                    > Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?
                    >
                    > If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.
                    >
                    > The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
                    > The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
                    > I would love to have any info on your progress.
                    >
                    > A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
                    > Looking forward to your comments.
                    > Bob
                    >



                  • Bob Anderson
                    Hi Gary The only project that I have on the go is clearing the crap out of my garage to make room so that I can get started !! I reckon that the paraglider
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 5, 2010
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                      Hi Gary
                      The only project that I have on the go is clearing the "crap" out of my garage to make room so that I can get started !!

                      I reckon that the paraglider backpack idea would work fine.

                      Another thing to think of is how to keep the plane steady at the beginning of the roll before take-off. The same problème will occur during taxi testing.

                      Bob

                      --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, Gary Gower <triker_mx@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Bob,
                      >  
                      > When time comes for me to build my Goat...  (Need first to finish a couple of projects to get space),
                      >  
                      > I am planning to build some suport behind the seat back to "fast bolt" a portable powered parachute engine, the ones that strap to the back of the pilot. There are some good ones around 20 HP.
                      >  
                      > Yes a powered Goat could be great.   I dont see too much drag of the stoped propeller in a Goat...  But sure can be easy aligned to the "fuselage".
                      >  
                      > Probably my next year project, 
                      >  
                      > Gary.
                      >  
                      >
                      > --- On Thu, 11/4/10, Bob Anderson <bob@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: Bob Anderson <bob@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France ?
                      > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 7:58 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Mike
                      > Thanks for your reply and the news on the Bloop page.
                      > Both here and on your site, you have, I think, answered a couple of my questions.
                      > On the site you wrote :
                      > "One time I cut the power suddenly and dropped onto the wheels surprisingly fast, doing a little bounce. I didn't expect an engine this small (15 hp.) to produce such a dramatic response to a power cut. High drag is part of this, of course. The Bloop is, indeed, a flying bird cage with a built in headwind."
                      > Here you wrote :
                      > "I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed, 
                      > cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even 
                      > quick dissassembly."
                      >
                      >
                      > To tell you the truth, Mike, I am really taken with the idea of learning to fly an ultralight glider ! 
                      > I can't use one of yours in France without putting a small low powered engine onto it and calling it a powered microlight. If I do that, the engine is just for getting to the soaring "zone" and the glider has got to retain its performance when the engine is cut.
                      > I also want to keep it at home so it would be assembled before and disassembled after each flight.
                      >
                      >
                      > A "Motor Goat" would seem a better bet than the Bloop. The motor tucked in behind the pilot should create less drag and if the prop can be aligned vertically when it is stopped, so much the better. It would also be easier to disassemble with the engine attached to the front section.
                      > Just a question mark about the prop wash on the tail...
                      >
                      >
                      > As for the 2 axis versus 3 axis question, the answer from my point of view is simple.
                      > I am told that 2 axis are easier and safer to fly but as I will continue (from time to time) to fly a conventional 3 axis microlight such as the Skyranger, it seems to me to be simpler if I have the same type of controls on the glider. 
                      > And of course, I don't know how to land a 2 axis plane in a crosswind !
                      >
                      >
                      > Bob Anderson Colmar France
                      >
                      >
                      > 2010/11/3 ¹Î¼® <ms7525@...>
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want.
                      > My airplane is still in development, so I don't have many
                      > answers.
                      >
                      > My real emphasis with the Bloop is on low airspeed,
                      > low power flying, which makes it a kind of specialty
                      > aircraft. I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed,
                      > cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even
                      > quick dissassembly.
                      >
                      > More news: went to full power, etc. see Bloop Page.
                      >
                      > I would like to know why two axis control is okay for
                      > paragliders but not airplanes. Is it just that no really
                      > impressive use of two axis airplane controls has come along?
                      >
                      > Mike Sandlin....San Diego California
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Anderson" <bob@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi
                      > > My name is Bob Anderson ...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > > So, what to do now ?
                      > > In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
                      > > In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,
                      > >
                      > > - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
                      > > - I want to keep costs down,
                      > > - I don't want to spend years building it,
                      > > - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
                      > > - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
                      > > - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
                      > > - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.
                      > >
                      > > The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma â€" Bloop, Goat or Bug ?
                      > >
                      > > The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
                      > > - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
                      > > - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
                      > > - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.
                      > >
                      > > So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
                      > > Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?
                      > >
                      > > If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.
                      > >
                      > > The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
                      > > The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
                      > > I would love to have any info on your progress.
                      > >
                      > > A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
                      > > Looking forward to your comments.
                      > > Bob
                      > >
                      >
                    • Jean PILLAUDIN
                      Hi Bob, I am Jean from France too, I just like to pointed to you the Demoichelle, it is not a motro-glider but you could built it in your garage, and you can
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 7, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Hi Bob,

                         

                        I am Jean from France too, I just like to pointed to you the Demoichelle, it is not a motro-glider but you could built it in your garage, and you can fold it.

                         

                        I am a member of the french assoc APEV it is the same spirit that the production of Mike S.

                        http://www.pouchel.com/

                        Some pictures

                        http://www.pouchel.com/index.php?p=galeries.html

                        The spec :

                        http://www.pouchel.com/index.php?p=demoichelle.html

                         

                        Regards

                         

                        Jean

                         


                        De : Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Bob Anderson
                        Envoyé : vendredi 5 novembre 2010 00:58
                        À : Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                        Objet : Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France ?

                         

                         

                        Mike

                        Thanks for your reply and the news on the Bloop page.

                        Both here and on your site, you have, I think, answered a couple of my questions.

                        On the site you wrote :

                        "One time I cut the power suddenly and dropped onto the wheels surprisingly fast, doing a little bounce. I didn't expect an engine this small (15 hp.) to produce such a dramatic response to a power cut. High drag is part of this, of course. The Bloop is, indeed, a flying bird cage with a built in headwind."

                        Here you wrote :

                        "I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed, 
                        cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even 
                        quick dissassembly."

                         

                        To tell you the truth, Mike, I am really taken with the idea of learning to fly an ultralight glider ! 

                        I can't use one of yours in France without putting a small low powered engine onto it and calling it a powered microlight. If I do that, the engine is just for getting to the soaring "zone" and the glider has got to retain its performance when the engine is cut.

                        I also want to keep it at home so it would be assembled before and disassembled after each flight.

                         

                        A "Motor Goat" would seem a better bet than the Bloop. The motor tucked in behind the pilot should create less drag and if the prop can be aligned vertically when it is stopped, so much the better. It would also be easier to disassemble with the engine attached to the front section.

                        Just a question mark about the prop wash on the tail...

                         

                        As for the 2 axis versus 3 axis question, the answer from my point of view is simple.

                        I am told that 2 axis are easier and safer to fly but as I will continue (from time to time) to fly a conventional 3 axis microlight such as the Skyranger, it seems to me to be simpler if I have the same type of controls on the glider. 

                        And of course, I don't know how to land a 2 axis plane in a crosswind !

                         

                        Bob Anderson Colmar France

                        2010/11/3 ¹Î¼® <ms7525@...>

                         



                        This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want.
                        My airplane is still in development, so I don't have many
                        answers.

                        My real emphasis with the Bloop is on low airspeed,
                        low power flying, which makes it a kind of specialty
                        aircraft. I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed,
                        cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even
                        quick dissassembly.

                        More news: went to full power, etc. see Bloop Page.

                        I would like to know why two axis control is okay for
                        paragliders but not airplanes. Is it just that no really
                        impressive use of two axis airplane controls has come along?

                        Mike Sandlin....San Diego California



                        --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Anderson" <bob@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > Hi

                        > My name is Bob Anderson ...

                        >

                        > So, what to do now ?
                        > In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my
                        training in to keep my hand in.
                        > In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to
                        buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,
                        >
                        > - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage
                        (5m x 4m),
                        > - I want to keep costs down,
                        > - I don't want to spend years building it,
                        > - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
                        > - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103
                        here in France !) ,
                        > - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains)
                        as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
                        > - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the
                        motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.
                        >
                        > The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the
                        solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma – Bloop, Goat or Bug ?
                        >
                        > The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
                        > - it's a 2 axis
                        and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
                        > - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was
                        designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
                        > - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop
                        although this is not vital.
                        >
                        > So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is
                        while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
                        > Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?
                        >
                        > If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about
                        your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.
                        >
                        > The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat
                        ProductID="1 in" w:st="on">1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
                        > The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards
                        getting it into the air ?
                        > I would love to have any info on your progress.
                        >
                        > A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
                        > Looking forward to your comments.
                        > Bob
                        >

                         

                      • Bob Anderson
                        Hi jean See my reply to Jean-Pierre Gazanion earlier in the discussion. By the way, I have been following the Demoiselle 101 saga on the Pouchel group.
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 7, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi jean
                          See my reply to Jean-Pierre Gazanion earlier in the discussion.
                          By the way, I have been following the Demoiselle 101 saga on the Pouchel group.
                          Christian's mishap wouldn't discourage me from building one if it was what I'm looking for ...
                          Perhaps the Cubchel, but I have not yet decided.

                          Cordialement
                          Bob

                          2010/11/7 Jean PILLAUDIN <jean.pillaudin@...>
                           

                          Hi Bob,

                           

                          I am Jean from France too, I just like to pointed to you the Demoichelle, it is not a motro-glider but you could built it in your garage, and you can fold it.

                           

                          I am a member of the french assoc APEV it is the same spirit that the production of Mike S.

                          http://www.pouchel.com/

                          Some pictures

                          http://www.pouchel.com/index.php?p=galeries.html

                          The spec :

                          http://www.pouchel.com/index.php?p=demoichelle.html

                           

                          Regards

                           

                          Jean

                           


                          De : Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com] De la part de Bob Anderson
                          Envoyé : vendredi 5 novembre 2010 00:58
                          À : Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                          Objet : Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France ?

                           

                           

                          Mike

                          Thanks for your reply and the news on the Bloop page.

                          Both here and on your site, you have, I think, answered a couple of my questions.

                          On the site you wrote :

                          "One time I cut the power suddenly and dropped onto the wheels surprisingly fast, doing a little bounce. I didn't expect an engine this small (15 hp.) to produce such a dramatic response to a power cut. High drag is part of this, of course. The Bloop is, indeed, a flying bird cage with a built in headwind."

                          Here you wrote :

                          "I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed, 
                          cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even 
                          quick dissassembly."

                           

                          To tell you the truth, Mike, I am really taken with the idea of learning to fly an ultralight glider ! 

                          I can't use one of yours in France without putting a small low powered engine onto it and calling it a powered microlight. If I do that, the engine is just for getting to the soaring "zone" and the glider has got to retain its performance when the engine is cut.

                          I also want to keep it at home so it would be assembled before and disassembled after each flight.

                           

                          A "Motor Goat" would seem a better bet than the Bloop. The motor tucked in behind the pilot should create less drag and if the prop can be aligned vertically when it is stopped, so much the better. It would also be easier to disassemble with the engine attached to the front section.

                          Just a question mark about the prop wash on the tail...

                           

                          As for the 2 axis versus 3 axis question, the answer from my point of view is simple.

                          I am told that 2 axis are easier and safer to fly but as I will continue (from time to time) to fly a conventional 3 axis microlight such as the Skyranger, it seems to me to be simpler if I have the same type of controls on the glider. 

                          And of course, I don't know how to land a 2 axis plane in a crosswind !

                           

                          Bob Anderson Colmar France

                          2010/11/3 ¹Î¼® <ms7525@...>

                           



                          This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want.
                          My airplane is still in development, so I don't have many
                          answers.

                          My real emphasis with the Bloop is on low airspeed,
                          low power flying, which makes it a kind of specialty
                          aircraft. I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed,
                          cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even
                          quick dissassembly.

                          More news: went to full power, etc. see Bloop Page.

                          I would like to know why two axis control is okay for
                          paragliders but not airplanes. Is it just that no really
                          impressive use of two axis airplane controls has come along?

                          Mike Sandlin....San Diego California



                          --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Anderson" <bob@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi

                          > My name is Bob Anderson ...

                          >
                          > So, what to do now ?
                          > In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
                          > In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,
                          >
                          > - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
                          > - I want to keep costs down,
                          > - I don't want to spend years building it,
                          > - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
                          > - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
                          > - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
                          > - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.
                          >
                          > The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma – Bloop, Goat or Bug ?
                          >
                          > The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
                          > - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
                          > - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
                          > - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.
                          >
                          > So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
                          > Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?
                          >
                          > If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.
                          >
                          > The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
                          > The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
                          > I would love to have any info on your progress.
                          >
                          > A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
                          > Looking forward to your comments.
                          > Bob
                          >

                           


                        • Gary Gower
                          Hi Bob, I was thinking to test fly the Goat first the same way as in my hang glider time (looong time ago),  in the training hill, unti I feel confident (ot
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 24, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Bob,

                            I was thinking to test fly the Goat first the same way as in my hang glider time (looong time ago),  in the training hill, unti I feel confident (ot tired to pull up hill :-). 

                            About powered take off,  I was planning to install a little tail wheel and take off, like the Croatian Glider, just enough initial speed to have elevator response, then "learn" to keep the glider neutral over the main wheel until take off speed,   given the slow speeds of the Goats, I think is not a dangerous thing to experiment, learn and practice...   

                            Probably also  take off by towing or hang glider ramp and use the power when there is no lift...

                            Time will say...

                            Gary.

                            --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Bob Anderson <bob@...> wrote:

                            From: Bob Anderson <bob@...>
                            Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France?
                            To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 5:20 PM

                             

                            Hi Gary
                            The only project that I have on the go is clearing the "crap" out of my garage to make room so that I can get started !!

                            I reckon that the paraglider backpack idea would work fine.

                            Another thing to think of is how to keep the plane steady at the beginning of the roll before take-off. The same problème will occur during taxi testing.

                            Bob

                            --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, Gary Gower <triker_mx@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Bob,
                            >  
                            > When time comes for me to build my Goat...  (Need first to finish a couple of projects to get space),
                            >  
                            > I am planning to build some suport behind the seat back to "fast bolt" a portable powered parachute engine, the ones that strap to the back of the pilot. There are some good ones around 20 HP.
                            >  
                            > Yes a powered Goat could be great.   I dont see too much drag of the stoped propeller in a Goat...  But sure can be easy aligned to the "fuselage".
                            >  
                            > Probably my next year project, 
                            >  
                            > Gary.
                            >  
                            >
                            > --- On Thu, 11/4/10, Bob Anderson <bob@...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > From: Bob Anderson <bob@...>
                            > Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France ?
                            > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 7:58 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Mike
                            > Thanks for your reply and the news on the Bloop page.
                            > Both here and on your site, you have, I think, answered a couple of my questions.
                            > On the site you wrote :
                            > "One time I cut the power suddenly and dropped onto the wheels surprisingly fast, doing a little bounce. I didn't expect an engine this small (15 hp.) to produce such a dramatic response to a power cut. High drag is part of this, of course. The Bloop is, indeed, a flying bird cage with a built in headwind."
                            > Here you wrote :
                            > "I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed, 
                            > cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even 
                            > quick dissassembly."
                            >
                            >
                            > To tell you the truth, Mike, I am really taken with the idea of learning to fly an ultralight glider ! 
                            > I can't use one of yours in France without putting a small low powered engine onto it and calling it a powered microlight. If I do that, the engine is just for getting to the soaring "zone" and the glider has got to retain its performance when the engine is cut.
                            > I also want to keep it at home so it would be assembled before and disassembled after each flight.
                            >
                            >
                            > A "Motor Goat" would seem a better bet than the Bloop. The motor tucked in behind the pilot should create less drag and if the prop can be aligned vertically when it is stopped, so much the better. It would also be easier to disassemble with the engine attached to the front section.
                            > Just a question mark about the prop wash on the tail...
                            >
                            >
                            > As for the 2 axis versus 3 axis question, the answer from my point of view is simple.
                            > I am told that 2 axis are easier and safer to fly but as I will continue (from time to time) to fly a conventional 3 axis microlight such as the Skyranger, it seems to me to be simpler if I have the same type of controls on the glider. 
                            > And of course, I don't know how to land a 2 axis plane in a crosswind !
                            >
                            >
                            > Bob Anderson Colmar France
                            >
                            >
                            > 2010/11/3 ¹Î¼® <ms7525@...>
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want.
                            > My airplane is still in development, so I don't have many
                            > answers.
                            >
                            > My real emphasis with the Bloop is on low airspeed,
                            > low power flying, which makes it a kind of specialty
                            > aircraft. I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed,
                            > cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even
                            > quick dissassembly.
                            >
                            > More news: went to full power, etc. see Bloop Page.
                            >
                            > I would like to know why two axis control is okay for
                            > paragliders but not airplanes. Is it just that no really
                            > impressive use of two axis airplane controls has come along?
                            >
                            > Mike Sandlin....San Diego California
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Anderson" <bob@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi
                            > > My name is Bob Anderson ...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > So, what to do now ?
                            > > In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
                            > > In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,
                            > >
                            > > - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
                            > > - I want to keep costs down,
                            > > - I don't want to spend years building it,
                            > > - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
                            > > - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
                            > > - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
                            > > - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.
                            > >
                            > > The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma â€" Bloop, Goat or Bug ?
                            > >
                            > > The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
                            > > - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
                            > > - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
                            > > - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.
                            > >
                            > > So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
                            > > Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?
                            > >
                            > > If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.
                            > >
                            > > The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
                            > > The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
                            > > I would love to have any info on your progress.
                            > >
                            > > A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
                            > > Looking forward to your comments.
                            > > Bob
                            > >
                            >


                          • Paul Dewhurst
                            I asked my friend who is involved in the microlight association (FFPLUM) in France and this is his reply: Hi Paul, sorry for this late response. here is the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 2, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              
                              I asked my friend who is involved in the microlight association (FFPLUM) in France and this is his reply:
                               
                              Hi Paul,
                              sorry for this late response. here is the French definition of the PUL (Planeurs Ultra Légers or Ultralight Gliders)

                              Arrêté/DGAC du 07/10/85 publié au J.O. du 01/11/85 p.12665.
                              « Article 1 : Est dit planeur ultraléger un aéronef non motopropulsé, apte à décoller ou atterrir aisément en utilisant l’énergie musculaire du pilote et l’énergie potentielle ».
                              « Article 2 : Les PUL sont dispensés de document de navigabilité. »
                              « Article 3 : La réglementation relative aux conditions générales d’utilisation des aéronefs n’est pas applicable au PUL. »

                              Roughly translated its mean :
                              Arrêté/DGAC of the 07/10/85 published in the OJ of the 01/11/85 p.12665.
                              “Article 1: Is known as ultralight glider an aircraft not motorised, capable to take off or land easily by using the muscular energy of the pilot and the potential energy”.
                              “Article 2: The ULG are exempted of navigability. document ”
                              “Article 3: The regulation relating to the general terms of use of the aircraft is not applicable to the ULG. ”


                              As you can see all the interpretation rest on the terms "take off or land easily by using muscular energy of the pilot  and ...". A lot of people think its mean that you must carry the glider by yourself.and land on your feet. In my mind it is not so clear ! The text use "or" between take off and land easily, so you had only to comply with one of this two conditions. But It use "and" between "muscular energy of the pilot" and "potential energy"so you must use the to combined mean for take off or landing.
                              As the text doesn't define the quantity of muscular energy you must use, it may tend towards zero or be stocked by any mean. So, for exemple, you can take of on wheels with your feet used as brakes and for initial movement.
                              Finally my response will be an "airchair glider" in France is not submitted to licence, airworthiness regulation or registration.  This interpretation must be tested against our administration and I am confident that it will be accepted. The Archoepterix is for example already allowed to fly in France as a PUL.
                              Hope all this will help you !
                              regards
                              Phil


                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:20 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France?

                               

                              Hi Bob,

                              I was thinking to test fly the Goat first the same way as in my hang glider time (looong time ago),  in the training hill, unti I feel confident (ot tired to pull up hill :-). 

                              About powered take off,  I was planning to install a little tail wheel and take off, like the Croatian Glider, just enough initial speed to have elevator response, then "learn" to keep the glider neutral over the main wheel until take off speed,   given the slow speeds of the Goats, I think is not a dangerous thing to experiment, learn and practice...   

                              Probably also  take off by towing or hang glider ramp and use the power when there is no lift...

                              Time will say...

                              Gary.

                              --- On Fri, 11/5/10, Bob Anderson <bob@...> wrote:

                              From: Bob Anderson <bob@...>
                              Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France?
                              To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Friday, November 5, 2010, 5:20 PM

                               

                              Hi Gary
                              The only project that I have on the go is clearing the "crap" out of my garage to make room so that I can get started !!

                              I reckon that the paraglider backpack idea would work fine.

                              Another thing to think of is how to keep the plane steady at the beginning of the roll before take-off. The same problème will occur during taxi testing.

                              Bob

                              --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, Gary Gower <triker_mx@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Bob,
                              >  
                              > When time comes for me to build my Goat...  (Need first to finish a couple of projects to get space),
                              >  
                              > I am planning to build some suport behind the seat back to "fast bolt" a portable powered parachute engine, the ones that strap to the back of the pilot. There are some good ones around 20 HP.
                              >  
                              > Yes a powered Goat could be great.   I dont see too much drag of the stoped propeller in a Goat...  But sure can be easy aligned to the "fuselage".
                              >  
                              > Probably my next year project, 
                              >  
                              > Gary.
                              >  
                              >
                              > --- On Thu, 11/4/10, Bob Anderson <bob@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Bob Anderson <bob@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France ?
                              > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Thursday, November 4, 2010, 7:58 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Mike
                              > Thanks for your reply and the news on the Bloop page.
                              > Both here and on your site, you have, I think, answered a couple of my questions.
                              > On the site you wrote :
                              > "One time I cut the power suddenly and dropped onto the wheels surprisingly fast, doing a little bounce. I didn't expect an engine this small (15 hp.) to produce such a dramatic response to a power cut. High drag is part of this, of course. The Bloop is, indeed, a flying bird cage with a built in headwind."
                              > Here you wrote :
                              > "I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed, 
                              > cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even 
                              > quick dissassembly."
                              >
                              >
                              > To tell you the truth, Mike, I am really taken with the idea of learning to fly an ultralight glider ! 
                              > I can't use one of yours in France without putting a small low powered engine onto it and calling it a powered microlight. If I do that, the engine is just for getting to the soaring "zone" and the glider has got to retain its performance when the engine is cut.
                              > I also want to keep it at home so it would be assembled before and disassembled after each flight.
                              >
                              >
                              > A "Motor Goat" would seem a better bet than the Bloop. The motor tucked in behind the pilot should create less drag and if the prop can be aligned vertically when it is stopped, so much the better. It would also be easier to disassemble with the engine attached to the front section.
                              > Just a question mark about the prop wash on the tail...
                              >
                              >
                              > As for the 2 axis versus 3 axis question, the answer from my point of view is simple.
                              > I am told that 2 axis are easier and safer to fly but as I will continue (from time to time) to fly a conventional 3 axis microlight such as the Skyranger, it seems to me to be simpler if I have the same type of controls on the glider. 
                              > And of course, I don't know how to land a 2 axis plane in a crosswind !
                              >
                              >
                              > Bob Anderson Colmar France
                              >
                              >
                              > 2010/11/3 ¹Î¼® <ms7525@...>
                              >
                              >
                              >  
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > This is a good wish list, I like to know what pilots want.
                              > My airplane is still in development, so I don't have many
                              > answers.
                              >
                              > My real emphasis with the Bloop is on low airspeed,
                              > low power flying, which makes it a kind of specialty
                              > aircraft. I don't expect to satisfy pilots who want speed,
                              > cold weather shelter, sailplane style soaring, or even
                              > quick dissassembly.
                              >
                              > More news: went to full power, etc. see Bloop Page.
                              >
                              > I would like to know why two axis control is okay for
                              > paragliders but not airplanes. Is it just that no really
                              > impressive use of two axis airplane controls has come along?
                              >
                              > Mike Sandlin....San Diego California
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Anderson" <bob@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi
                              > > My name is Bob Anderson ...
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > >
                              > > So, what to do now ?
                              > > In the short term, I will keep renting the Sky Ranger that I did my training in to keep my hand in.
                              > > In the medium to long term, however, I am not in a financial position to buy a plane or to keep it at my local airport (hanger space at 100€ a month, landing fees 10€ a go,...) so,
                              > >
                              > > - I need an aircraft that I can build and keep at home in my small garage (5m x 4m),
                              > > - I want to keep costs down,
                              > > - I don't want to spend years building it,
                              > > - it has to be simple to make with easy to follow plans,
                              > > - it has to be motorized as I don't have a glider license (no FAA Part 103 here in France !) ,
                              > > - I would like to make the most of the local assets (the Vosges mountains) as I flew paragliders there in the (distant) past and loved the feeling of liberty that it gave me until an unfortunate accident over 20 years ago put an end to that.
                              > > - the idea of being able to get up to where the lift is and then cut the motor while having the option of restarting it if required appeals to my need for safety.
                              > >
                              > > The BUG site has been a mine of information and I am certain that the solution is in there but I am faced with a bit of a dilemma â€" Bloop, Goat or Bug ?
                              > >
                              > > The motorized Bloop might be an viable option for me but :
                              > > - it's a 2 axis and I really want to continue flying with a 3 axis,
                              > > - I wondered if it's performance is as good as the others as it was designed as a beginners glider where stability and easy piloting are the priority,
                              > > - I really like the idea of a single wheel rather that 2 on the Bloop although this is not vital.
                              > >
                              > > So what about keeping the Bloop top wing profile more or less as it is while adding on ailerons and (why not) flaps, to make it 3 axis, as well as adding more surface to compensate for the extra weight (the motor and my 185 lds !) ?
                              > > Or perhaps a motorized B4 with a Bloop type tail to avoid the prop wash ?
                              > >
                              > > If Mike Sandlin reads this, I would greatly appreciate more news about your taxi (or flying) tests with the motorized Bloop.
                              > >
                              > > The Red Goat with a motor looks good (Goat 1 in Aus- MOTORIZED in the photo section) but what about the prop wash on the tail ?
                              > > The photos are dated from august, have you guys got any further towards getting it into the air ?
                              > > I would love to have any info on your progress.
                              > >
                              > > A bit long, so thanks for reading this far !
                              > > Looking forward to your comments.
                              > > Bob
                              > >
                              >


                            • Toni Wiendl
                              Dear all As some of you still did not see the video, please, follow the link below http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgOR5PLTn84 It is always good to remmember
                              Message 14 of 17 , Dec 2, 2010
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                                Dear all

                                As some of you still did not see the video, please, follow the link below

                                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgOR5PLTn84

                                It is always good to remmember how fast things can go wrong. Specially if you are using a glider which is not designed for the work you push it to do.

                                Fortunatelly, nothing serious occured with the pilot but, it could be diferent.
                                Be cautious in your flights.

                                Kind regards

                                   Toni, future Goat constructor from Brazil
                                  

                              • Bob Anderson
                                As I posted in another thread : The problem of course is that even if an airchair is in the Vol Libre or Free flight (as in un-motorised) category I could
                                Message 15 of 17 , Dec 3, 2010
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                                  As I posted in another thread :
                                  The problem of course is that even if an airchair is in the "Vol Libre" or "Free flight" (as in un-motorised) category I could only fly one if I had insurance cover.
                                  The only realistic option for insurance cover is via the "Fédération Française de Vol Libre" and they will only insure you if you are training for, or have passed, your federation licence (not my case !)

                                  My Motorised Ultra Light license and an airchair with a small light moter still seems my best bet for inexpensive, fun, safe flying without having to get an extra qualification.

                                  I'm still looking at the red goat (with wings made in 2 parts) or the bug4 'cause I just love the bi-plane look and the wings are shorter so they'll fit into my work space.
                                  I'll probably spend quite some time just scratching my head and thinking about it before deciding ...

                                  Bob
                                • Gary Gower
                                  Lets remember that we dont get any younger every year... ... From: Bob Anderson Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France?
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Dec 3, 2010
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                                    Lets remember that we dont get any younger every year...


                                    --- On Fri, 12/3/10, Bob Anderson <bob@...> wrote:

                                    From: Bob Anderson <bob@...>
                                    Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: An Air Chair in France?
                                    To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 11:14 AM

                                     

                                    As I posted in another thread :
                                    The problem of course is that even if an airchair is in the "Vol Libre" or "Free flight" (as in un-motorised) category I could only fly one if I had insurance cover.
                                    The only realistic option for insurance cover is via the "Fédération Française de Vol Libre" and they will only insure you if you are training for, or have passed, your federation licence (not my case !)

                                    My Motorised Ultra Light license and an airchair with a small light moter still seems my best bet for inexpensive, fun, safe flying without having to get an extra qualification.

                                    I'm still looking at the red goat (with wings made in 2 parts) or the bug4 'cause I just love the bi-plane look and the wings are shorter so they'll fit into my work space.
                                    I'll probably spend quite some time just scratching my head and thinking about it before deciding ...

                                    Bob


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