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Re: G4 FLYING!

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  • ¹Î¼®
    Congratulations Pieter on your Goat flight! Now you can tell us, from a fresh perspective, how to do it. Your 300 hours has already provided a big answer to
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 4 6:36 AM
      Congratulations Pieter on your Goat flight! Now you
      can tell us, from a fresh perspective, how to do it.
      Your "300 hours" has already provided a big answer
      to the old question of building time.

      Maybe you can answer the gap seal question! Do they
      really make a noticible difference in handling, noise,
      or efficiency? I haven't flown without them, so I don't
      know, but I suspect that the kiss seal between the
      wings will make the biggest difference, and the others
      will be minor.

      The altimeter is the only instrument I read while
      Goat flying, so I can't directly answer your question
      about airspeed. I fly around at a comfortable speed
      that is slow and quiet, but fast enough for good
      control, probably well under 30 miles per hour (I
      weigh 153 lbs.). Under critical maneuvering conditions,
      such as in the landing pattern, I add a little extra
      speed as a safety margin. In practice, this means
      flying with the nose a little low and hearing some
      additional wind noise. (I my opinion, both of these
      are easy to detect in an airchair, and less distracting
      than reading a number from an instrument.)

      I assume you mean the Goat "loses speed quickly" as
      compared to a conventional sailplane. You're going
      fast, you raise the nose, and it slows down right
      away instead of zooming along. Yes! It's been so long
      since I've flown a clean, heavy sailplane that I'd
      forgotten that energy retention is a big deal, a big
      part of the pilot's planning, especially near the
      ground. In an airchair, which has low energy retention,
      the"energy management" task is reduced to glide and
      altitude judgement, with energy stored as airspeed
      being a minor consideration. (Most hang gliders and
      paragliders are similar). This is something that
      flight simulators might be good at demonstrating.

      When I read "sluggish ailerons" I think, "yeah,
      it's a sailplane". Maybe the gap seals will help.

      So, good luck and good flying!

      Mike Sandlin....San Diego California





      --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "ph_dutoit" <pieterhdutoit@...> wrote:
      >
      > Good day fellow airchairers!
      >
      > After 10 months of building(300 hrs) my G4 has made its first flights on saturday, heeeehaaaaa!
      >
      > I made about 8 flights,had a few hairy landings,but everything went well and my glider is still in one piece. It was a huge learning curve, I havent flown in two years, and never something as light as the goat,it loses speed very quickly!
      >
      > There is still some work, I havent fitted gap-seals yet, my ailerons were a bit sluggish and I suspect its due to the lack of seals.
      >
      > Mike, do you know at what speed your final approach is in still air?
      >
      > Thanks for a great plane Mike!
      >
      > Regards
      > Pieter
      >
      >
      > BTW I have a short video, but I dont know where to post it,any ideas?
      > Also check the photo section for a few photos
      >
    • Phils
      Way to Go Peter ! [:D] 300 Hr ! Now that says something . I m still working on Pig brackets But the shop is cold .The elect heat pump wont keep up , so
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 4 11:17 AM

        Way  to Go Peter ! :D
        300 Hr  !  Now that says something . I'm still working on Pig brackets  But the shop  is cold  .The elect heat pump wont keep up , so now I'm  building this  for the shop

        http://www.motherearthnews.com/Do-It-Yourself/1978-01-01/The-Amazing-500-Wood-Burning-Stove-That-You-Can-Build-for-35-Or-Less.aspx 


        --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "ph_dutoit" <pieterhdutoit@...> wrote:
        >
        > Good day fellow airchairers!
        >
        > After 10 months of building(300 hrs) my G4 has made its first flights on saturday, heeeehaaaaa!
        >
        > I made about 8 flights,had a few hairy landings,but everything went well and my glider is still in one piece. It was a huge learning curve, I havent flown in two years, and never something as light as the goat,it loses speed very quickly!
        >
        > There is still some work, I havent fitted gap-seals yet, my ailerons were a bit sluggish and I suspect its due to the lack of seals.
        >
        > Mike, do you know at what speed your final approach is in still air?
        >
        > Thanks for a great plane Mike!
        >
        > Regards
        > Pieter
        >
        >
        > BTW I have a short video, but I dont know where to post it,any ideas?
        > Also check the photo section for a few photos
        >

      • Phils
        The old one I have is electric and It worked. Solid tank . I think its just a steel tank, it dont look galv-ed . No glass liner However I have not cut it
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 4 4:06 PM
          The old one I have is electric and It worked. Solid tank . I think its just a steel tank, it dont look galv-ed . No glass liner However I have not cut it open yet , just got it unwraped..... and I'm freezing !

          --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "gypsyinvader" <garrywarber@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Phil,
          >
          > As a former plumber long ago, I ask what about the "glass" lining and
          > galvanizing? Plus the tank likely is rusted through somewhere, that's
          > why it got tossed... Just askin'...
          >
          > Garry
          >
          > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Phils" <philsconcepts@> wrote:
          > But the shop is cold .The elect heat pump wont keep up , so now I'm
          > building this for the shop
          >
        • James
          If you read the instructions it says to not use a galvanized tank or one that is rusted out. Not all discarded water heaters are rusted out, but for the
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 5 4:59 PM
            If you read the instructions it says to not use a galvanized tank or one
            that is rusted out. Not all discarded water heaters are rusted out, but
            for the savings you can probably buy a new tank. Anyway, I've bought
            used water heaters in good working condition for $20 to $50.

            Don't bother getting/making one of these if you're intending to buy the
            $5 bundles of wood at the supermarket. You get about 10 cents worth of
            wood there. With a tiny bit of scrounging skills you can get all the
            wood you need free.

            I bought a used cast iron [firebrick lined] stove over 10 years ago
            [closer to 15] and just gave it to my son. I was going to install it
            here but my wife had a fit to have the chimney in the 5" wall between
            the living room and the master bedroom so it never happened. It sure
            helps my son knock the chill off in his shop when the temperature is in
            the 20's or 30's; although that seldom happens here [central Florida].

            Regards,
            James
            .
            .

            >
            > Posted by: "gypsyinvader" garrywarber@...
            > <mailto:garrywarber@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20G4%20FLYING%21>
            > gypsyinvader <http://profiles.yahoo.com/gypsyinvader>
            >
            >
            > Mon Jan 4, 2010 2:42 pm (PST)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Phil,
            >
            > As a former plumber long ago, I ask what about the "glass" lining and
            > galvanizing? Plus the tank likely is rusted through somewhere, that's
            > why it got tossed... Just askin'...
            >
            > Garry
            >
            > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:Airchairgroup%40yahoogroups.com>, "Phils" <philsconcepts@
            > ...> wrote:
            > But the shop is cold .The elect heat pump wont keep up , so now I'm
            > building this for the shop
          • john gretta
            lol  I buld them from a propain tank or aircomprester tank thay are thick and cant burnd them out jmg ... From: James Subject:
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 5 5:47 PM
              lol  I buld them from a propain tank or aircomprester tank thay are thick and cant burnd them out
              jmg


              --- On Tue, 1/5/10, James <res075oh@...> wrote:

              From: James <res075oh@...>
              Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: G4 FLYING!
              To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tuesday, January 5, 2010, 5:59 PM

               
              If you read the instructions it says to not use a galvanized tank or one
              that is rusted out. Not all discarded water heaters are rusted out, but
              for the savings you can probably buy a new tank. Anyway, I've bought
              used water heaters in good working condition for $20 to $50.

              Don't bother getting/making one of these if you're intending to buy the
              $5 bundles of wood at the supermarket. You get about 10 cents worth of
              wood there. With a tiny bit of scrounging skills you can get all the
              wood you need free.

              I bought a used cast iron [firebrick lined] stove over 10 years ago
              [closer to 15] and just gave it to my son. I was going to install it
              here but my wife had a fit to have the chimney in the 5" wall between
              the living room and the master bedroom so it never happened. It sure
              helps my son knock the chill off in his shop when the temperature is in
              the 20's or 30's; although that seldom happens here [central Florida].

              Regards,
              James
              .
              .

              >
              > Posted by: "gypsyinvader" garrywarber@ yahoo.com
              > <mailto:garrywarber@ yahoo.com?Subject=%20Re% 3A%20G4%20FLYING %21>
              > gypsyinvader <http://profiles. yahoo.com/ gypsyinvader>
              >
              >
              > Mon Jan 4, 2010 2:42 pm (PST)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Phil,
              >
              > As a former plumber long ago, I ask what about the "glass" lining and
              > galvanizing? Plus the tank likely is rusted through somewhere, that's
              > why it got tossed... Just askin'...
              >
              > Garry
              >
              > --- In Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
              > <mailto:Airchairgro up%40yahoogroups .com>, "Phils" <philsconcepts@
              > ...> wrote:
              > But the shop is cold .The elect heat pump wont keep up , so now I'm
              > building this for the shop


            • Percy Wood
              It sure helps my son knock the chill off in his shop when the temperature is in the 20 s or 30 s; although that seldom happens here [central Florida]. It
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 5 5:48 PM
                " It sure
                helps my son knock the chill off in his shop when the temperature is in
                the 20's or 30's; although that seldom happens here [central Florida]."
                It would help here in SE `Bama as well, James.  Really cold here.
                Never thought I'd see it there when I first got here in April.
                                    Percy

              • sportcfi
                Very nice wood work on the wings. I would like to see more pictures of the wing build and all. Do you have a web site with your build log, or maybe some you
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 6 5:19 AM
                  Very nice wood work on the wings. I would like to see more pictures of the wing build and all. Do you have a web site with your build log, or maybe some you could add to the album on the group, I would also like to know how much the wing panels weigh each.
                  Mike


                  --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "ph_dutoit" <pieterhdutoit@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Good day fellow airchairers!
                  >
                  > After 10 months of building(300 hrs) my G4 has made its first flights on saturday, heeeehaaaaa!
                  >
                  > I made about 8 flights,had a few hairy landings,but everything went well and my glider is still in one piece. It was a huge learning curve, I havent flown in two years, and never something as light as the goat,it loses speed very quickly!
                  >
                  > There is still some work, I havent fitted gap-seals yet, my ailerons were a bit sluggish and I suspect its due to the lack of seals.
                  >
                  > Mike, do you know at what speed your final approach is in still air?
                  >
                  > Thanks for a great plane Mike!
                  >
                  > Regards
                  > Pieter
                  >
                  >
                  > BTW I have a short video, but I dont know where to post it,any ideas?
                  > Also check the photo section for a few photos
                  >
                • john gretta
                  LOL  Will take the vale off and ther more then just oil and I use them for 20 years and nothing so best know your stuff or mouth close!!  IT thick and works
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 6 5:32 AM
                    LOL  Will take the vale off and ther more then just oil and I use them for 20 years and nothing so best know your stuff or mouth close!!  IT thick and works the best  and yes the oil in there burn but wront go BOOM !!!!

                    --- On Wed, 1/6/10, gypsyinvader <garrywarber@...> wrote:

                    From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@...>
                    Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: G4 FLYING!
                    To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, January 6, 2010, 6:20 AM

                     

                    From a propane tank??  Now thats kinda scary!  I hope not with a cutting torch...  Sprekin' of such, why not get flat stock and weld up yer own firebox?  You could still use the door/flue kit if ya want.  Used wood stoves can be found from folks that found out it takes time and commitment to use one too...  :-)  Remember the folk song that says "the old guys say, you have to split a little every day..."  I still use a maul, and like it.  Kinda Zen like, if yer haid is in the right place.
                    Garry
                    --- In Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com, john gretta <jmgretta@...> wrote:

                     lol  I buld them from a propain tank or aircomprester tank thay are thick and cant burnd them out

                  • ph_dutoit
                    Thank you for the compliments. Unfortunately I have only taken some photo s with a cellphone while building. I will probably post all my photo s on this site
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 6 5:37 AM
                      Thank you for the compliments.

                      Unfortunately I have only taken some photo's with a cellphone while building. I will probably post all my photo's on this site over time. As for my flight-videos, I will wait untill I have something worthwhile showing before I post it on Youtube or somewhere.

                      I built ALL the ribs on my G4 from plywood, even the leading-edge shell, but I have not weighed my glider, so I dont know if there was a weight-saving. In fact, I wonder if there was any gain at all, except for looking pretty ;-)
                      Each main wing rib weighs 170 grams, if that helps.

                      I also made a boo-boo here and there, the most noticable is a 10-inch gap between the flap and the aileron. That happens when you are used to metric and suddenly have to work with imperial, late at night after a few beers with the wife shouting at you and the dog tugging at your trousers while you......get it.

                      I still have a lot of refinements and cosmetics, but all in good time.

                      Get building!

                      Regards
                      Pieter



                      --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "sportcfi" <MikeT52@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Very nice wood work on the wings. I would like to see more pictures of the wing build and all. Do you have a web site with your build log, or maybe some you could add to the album on the group, I would also like to know how much the wing panels weigh each.
                      > Mike
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "ph_dutoit" <pieterhdutoit@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Good day fellow airchairers!
                      > >
                      > > After 10 months of building(300 hrs) my G4 has made its first flights on saturday, heeeehaaaaa!
                      > >
                      > > I made about 8 flights,had a few hairy landings,but everything went well and my glider is still in one piece. It was a huge learning curve, I havent flown in two years, and never something as light as the goat,it loses speed very quickly!
                      > >
                      > > There is still some work, I havent fitted gap-seals yet, my ailerons were a bit sluggish and I suspect its due to the lack of seals.
                      > >
                      > > Mike, do you know at what speed your final approach is in still air?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for a great plane Mike!
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > > Pieter
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > BTW I have a short video, but I dont know where to post it,any ideas?
                      > > Also check the photo section for a few photos
                      > >
                      >
                    • rexnstudio@aol.com
                      I bust wood every day with a maul & can make better progress than the guy with the hydraulic splitter. Its not the busting that gets you, its wrangling the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 6 5:42 AM
                        I bust wood every day with a maul & can make better progress than the guy with the hydraulic splitter. Its not the busting that gets you, its wrangling the logs. ..and yes, go out and find a used franklin stove. I bet I have run 6 national forests through mine over the past 20 years. Lucky for me I have about 35 acres of hardwood forest to keep clean, I cut an average of 2 loads a week (pick-up bed trailer)... You really have to love getting out there and doing that kind of thing, otherwise just be happy and pay the propane man.
                         
                        Working up firewood is good exercise... I tried lifting weights, but they're so darned heavy.
                         
                        might better stear the conversation back to airplanes now... or not, I need to paint wings, but its too cold.
                         
                        rex



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@...>
                        To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wed, Jan 6, 2010 8:20 am
                        Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: G4 FLYING!

                         

                        From a propane tank??  Now thats kinda scary!  I hope not with a cutting torch...  Sprekin' of such, why not get flat stock and weld up yer own firebox?  You could still use the door/flue kit if ya want.  Used wood stoves can be found from folks that found out it takes time and commitment to use one too...  :-)  Remember the folk song that says "the old guys say, you have to split a little every day..."  I still use a maul, and like it.  Kinda Zen like, if yer haid is in the right place.
                        Garry
                        --- In Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com, john gretta <jmgretta@...> wrote:

                         lol  I buld them from a propain tank or aircomprester tank thay are thick and cant burnd them out
                      • john gretta
                        Hey  we take the tenk and turn it in to a wood stove   DA and yes fire wood is good way to work out done it for 32 years and mist it !! ... From:
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 6 5:47 AM
                          Hey  we take the tenk and turn it in to a wood stove   DA
                          and yes fire wood is good way to work out done it for 32 years and mist it !!

                          --- On Wed, 1/6/10, rexnstudio@... <rexnstudio@...> wrote:

                          From: rexnstudio@... <rexnstudio@...>
                          Subject: Re: [Airchairgroup] Re: G4 FLYING!
                          To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Wednesday, January 6, 2010, 6:42 AM

                           
                          I bust wood every day with a maul & can make better progress than the guy with the hydraulic splitter. Its not the busting that gets you, its wrangling the logs. ..and yes, go out and find a used franklin stove. I bet I have run 6 national forests through mine over the past 20 years. Lucky for me I have about 35 acres of hardwood forest to keep clean, I cut an average of 2 loads a week (pick-up bed trailer)... You really have to love getting out there and doing that kind of thing, otherwise just be happy and pay the propane man.
                           
                          Working up firewood is good exercise... I tried lifting weights, but they're so darned heavy.
                           
                          might better stear the conversation back to airplanes now... or not, I need to paint wings, but its too cold.
                           
                          rex



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: gypsyinvader <garrywarber@ yahoo.com>
                          To: Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com
                          Sent: Wed, Jan 6, 2010 8:20 am
                          Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: G4 FLYING!

                           

                          From a propane tank??  Now thats kinda scary!  I hope not with a cutting torch...  Sprekin' of such, why not get flat stock and weld up yer own firebox?  You could still use the door/flue kit if ya want.  Used wood stoves can be found from folks that found out it takes time and commitment to use one too...  :-)  Remember the folk song that says "the old guys say, you have to split a little every day..."  I still use a maul, and like it.  Kinda Zen like, if yer haid is in the right place.
                          Garry
                          --- In Airchairgroup@ yahoogroups. com, john gretta <jmgretta@...> wrote:

                           lol  I buld them from a propain tank or aircomprester tank thay are thick and cant burnd them out

                        • Bruce C. Anderson
                          Howdy ... When I was a kid, in northern Minnesota we owned a sawmill, and it produced scraps that were perfect for a wood burner. 4 x(4-8) x(1-8) . Mostly
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 6 6:23 AM
                            Howdy

                            > You really have to love getting out there and doing that kind of
                            > thing, otherwise just be happy and pay the propane man.
                            > Working up firewood is good exercise...

                            When I was a kid, in northern Minnesota we owned a sawmill, and it
                            produced scraps that were perfect for a wood burner. 4"x(4-8)"x(1-8)".
                            Mostly hardwood. We had a 50x50 shop that was propane heat and it was
                            decided to heat the shop with wood instead. Makes sense, propane is
                            expensive, and the wood scraps were in effect free. Sounds like a good
                            idea right.

                            Heating the shop with wood basically ruined that shop, and ended up
                            costing more than propane.

                            The wood stove took up about 100 sqft of floor space, not that the
                            burners footprint was that large, it was that it had to be located far
                            enough from the walls not to start them on fire, and you couldn't do
                            anything next to the burner cause it was just too darn hot. On the
                            other side of the shop it was always too darn cold.

                            Before the wood burner the shop easy to keep clean. After the it was
                            installed, it was impossible to keep the shop clean. Hauling the wood
                            in caused wood and bark chips to get spread all across the floor, and
                            keeping the burner cleaned out caused ash to be tracked through the shop
                            as well. Plus the ash ended up on all the surfaces in the shop.

                            The propane furnace required effectively no man-hours to operate over
                            the heating season. But the wood burner not only required getting the
                            wood, which was insanely easy compared to going out and harvesting,
                            splitting and stacking your own, It required starting, feeding banking
                            and cleaning Repeat until spring. So much time was required to baby
                            sit the burner, and cleaning up afterward that economically it was a
                            total disaster, and the wood was FREE!!

                            Besides unless you use one of the most modern and expensive wood stoves,
                            then burning wood is the most polluting method of producing heat. Save
                            the planet and save your time and money

                            So from experience, I would say, like Rex did that unless you are
                            harvesting, splitting and stacking wood for pleasure and exercise, be
                            happy and pay the propane man. Ya gotta decide what is important, time
                            spent heating the shop, or time spent working in the shop.

                            Good Luck

                            See Ya

                            Have Lots of FUN

                            Bruce

                            "I've given up on the truth. Now, I only strive for Plausibility"

                            0.0000001
                          • James
                            At least here in Florida we don t have several feet of global warming on the ground; although as spoiled as we are it seems cold enough. James . .
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 6 9:59 AM
                              At least here in Florida we don't have several feet of "global warming"
                              on the ground; although as spoiled as we are it seems cold enough.

                              James
                              .
                              .

                              >
                              > Posted by: "Percy Wood" pwood2128h@...
                              > <mailto:pwood2128h@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20G4%20FLYING%21>
                              > pwood2128h <http://profiles.yahoo.com/pwood2128h>
                              >
                              >
                              > Tue Jan 5, 2010 5:49 pm (PST)
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > " It sure
                              >
                              > helps my son knock the chill off in his shop when the temperature is in
                              >
                              > the 20's or 30's; although that seldom happens here [central Florida]."
                              > It would help here in SE `Bama as well, James. Really cold here.
                              > Never thought I'd see it there when I first got here in April.
                              > Percy
                            • Anthony McDonald
                              Hi Every one We should stick to Airchair discussion, however because I have lived in Canada I know how serious the cold winters can be, I want to draw your
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 7 3:00 AM
                                Hi Every one
                                 
                                We should stick to Airchair discussion, however because I have lived in Canada I know how serious the cold winters can be, I want to draw your attention to a free super hot heating method.
                                 
                                How it could be used for heating is another story maybe some pipes filled with oil, or a solid aluminium/copper rod, protruding into the house, I dont know just food for thought - they cost $60 each so if you had 10 in you yard you should be able to heat your home for free during the day.
                                 
                                In bright sunlight they can melt steel but in overcast conditions should still produce some thing.
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                And for overnight heating you could couple one of these to a very large battery pack, through an inverter and into bar heaters.
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                Best of luck for the winter.
                                 
                                Anthony
                                 
                                 
                              • James
                                Conventional energy systems do not always [if ever] account for all of the costs [environmental and so on] of their use. One of the troubles with free energy
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 8 2:08 PM
                                  Conventional energy systems do not always [if ever] account for all of
                                  the costs [environmental and so on] of their use.

                                  One of the troubles with "free" energy is that when the costs of the
                                  infrastructure are totaled up by today's accounting methods they are
                                  from two to twenty [or more] times the cost of conventional energy delivery.

                                  If you want to use stored solar energy to heat your home at night there
                                  are FAR cheaper methods than batteries; especially if you are a DIY'er.

                                  Whenever any energy delivery system becomes cost competitive with
                                  conventional methods you will begin to see power companies utilizing
                                  them for more than the PR "puff pieces" they presently build. The so
                                  called "carbon tax" is supposed to help alleviate that situation but my
                                  bet is it will just be another governmental bureaucratic fiasco with
                                  hundreds of billions of dollars wasted or stolen by crooked politicians.

                                  James
                                  .
                                  .



                                  > Posted by: "Anthony McDonald" machinedesignsolidworks@...
                                  > <mailto:machinedesignsolidworks@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20G4%20FLYING%21>
                                  > maco108102 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/maco108102>
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:00 am (PST)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Hi Every one
                                  >
                                  > We should stick to Airchair discussion, however because I have lived in
                                  > Canada I know how serious the cold winters can be, I want to draw your
                                  > attention to a free super hot heating method.
                                • Brent Cam
                                  I was under the impression that this forum was about flying and building light weight gliders, personally if I wanted to find out about conventional or non
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 8 2:54 PM
                                    I was under the impression that "this" forum was about flying and building light weight gliders, personally if I wanted to find out about conventional or non conventional heating systems I would seek those types of forums, IMHO I'm far more interested in flying than heating so please can we stick to flying and gliding related topic's on this forum as this thread is no longer related to this group in any way, thank you.
                                    BC

                                    --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, James <res075oh@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Conventional energy systems do not always [if ever] account for all of
                                    > the costs [environmental and so on] of their use.
                                    >
                                    > One of the troubles with "free" energy is that when the costs of the
                                    > infrastructure are totaled up by today's accounting methods they are
                                    > from two to twenty [or more] times the cost of conventional energy delivery.
                                    >
                                    > If you want to use stored solar energy to heat your home at night there
                                    > are FAR cheaper methods than batteries; especially if you are a DIY'er.
                                    >
                                    > Whenever any energy delivery system becomes cost competitive with
                                    > conventional methods you will begin to see power companies utilizing
                                    > them for more than the PR "puff pieces" they presently build. The so
                                    > called "carbon tax" is supposed to help alleviate that situation but my
                                    > bet is it will just be another governmental bureaucratic fiasco with
                                    > hundreds of billions of dollars wasted or stolen by crooked politicians.
                                    >
                                    > James
                                    > .
                                    > .
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Posted by: "Anthony McDonald" machinedesignsolidworks@...
                                    > > <mailto:machinedesignsolidworks@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20G4%20FLYING%21>
                                    > > maco108102 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/maco108102>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:00 am (PST)
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Every one
                                    > >
                                    > > We should stick to Airchair discussion, however because I have lived in
                                    > > Canada I know how serious the cold winters can be, I want to draw your
                                    > > attention to a free super hot heating method.
                                    >
                                  • red
                                    Brent, Yeah, it sure is winter out there. :-) Your comment is valid, and we will try not to let things get too far off-course. Since shop heating is a
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 8 5:13 PM
                                      Brent,

                                      Yeah, it sure is winter out there. :-) Your comment is valid,
                                      and we will try not to let things get too far off-course. Since shop
                                      heating is a reasonable aspect of aircraft building, a short digression
                                      into that topic might be worthwhile, but it needs to stop short of
                                      pie-in-the-sky methods and political agendas.

                                      I am one moderator here, and there are others, as well. We are
                                      not here to direct the discussions, but to keep this forum as a
                                      productive atmosphere to encourage the building of airchairs. I agree
                                      with you, the discussion should not devolve into survival technologies,
                                      or politics. Feel free to call for a course correction, when needed.
                                      We are all rowing the same boat. You can contact me directly by email,
                                      or on the forum, with your concerns. Persistent nuisances can be
                                      moderated, if necessary.

                                      If there are any "sticking points" which you or any member has
                                      run into, there maybe help available for that specific topic, either
                                      from the membership, or from the archives. I encourage the experienced
                                      members here to answer such questions with their direct experience,
                                      rather than a blanket "go search the archives" response to new members.
                                      You have the floor. :-)

                                      --
                                      Cheers,
                                      Red
                                      ************************

                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brent Cam
                                      > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 3:54 PM
                                      > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: G4 FLYING!
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I was under the impression that "this" forum was about flying
                                      > and building light weight gliders, personally if I wanted to
                                      > find out about conventional or non conventional heating
                                      > systems I would seek those types of forums, IMHO I'm far more
                                      > interested in flying than heating so please can we stick to
                                      > flying and gliding related topic's on this forum as this
                                      > thread is no longer related to this group in any way, thank you. BC
                                      >
                                      > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, James <res075oh@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Conventional energy systems do not always [if ever] account
                                      > for all of
                                      > > the costs [environmental and so on] of their use.
                                      > >
                                      > > James
                                    • Mark
                                      Way to go Brent. Some of these guys, specifically Anthony, use this list for anything they want, as opposed to staying with airchair related stuff. Lets all go
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 9 7:51 AM
                                        Way to go Brent. Some of these guys, specifically Anthony, use this list for anything they want, as opposed to staying with airchair related stuff.

                                        Lets all go to the local produce market, bring coffee and a laptop and camp out like it is Starbucks. This will be similar to what Anthony does here.


                                        --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "Brent Cam" <brentcam58@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I was under the impression that "this" forum was about flying and building light weight gliders, personally if I wanted to find out about conventional or non conventional heating systems I would seek those types of forums, IMHO I'm far more interested in flying than heating so please can we stick to flying and gliding related topic's on this forum as this thread is no longer related to this group in any way, thank you.
                                        > BC
                                        >
                                        > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, James <res075oh@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Conventional energy systems do not always [if ever] account for all of
                                        > > the costs [environmental and so on] of their use.
                                        > >
                                        > > One of the troubles with "free" energy is that when the costs of the
                                        > > infrastructure are totaled up by today's accounting methods they are
                                        > > from two to twenty [or more] times the cost of conventional energy delivery.
                                        > >
                                        > > If you want to use stored solar energy to heat your home at night there
                                        > > are FAR cheaper methods than batteries; especially if you are a DIY'er.
                                        > >
                                        > > Whenever any energy delivery system becomes cost competitive with
                                        > > conventional methods you will begin to see power companies utilizing
                                        > > them for more than the PR "puff pieces" they presently build. The so
                                        > > called "carbon tax" is supposed to help alleviate that situation but my
                                        > > bet is it will just be another governmental bureaucratic fiasco with
                                        > > hundreds of billions of dollars wasted or stolen by crooked politicians.
                                        > >
                                        > > James
                                        > > .
                                        > > .
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > > Posted by: "Anthony McDonald" machinedesignsolidworks@
                                        > > > <mailto:machinedesignsolidworks@?Subject=%20Re%3A%20G4%20FLYING%21>
                                        > > > maco108102 <http://profiles.yahoo.com/maco108102>
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thu Jan 7, 2010 3:00 am (PST)
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hi Every one
                                        > > >
                                        > > > We should stick to Airchair discussion, however because I have lived in
                                        > > > Canada I know how serious the cold winters can be, I want to draw your
                                        > > > attention to a free super hot heating method.
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Phils
                                        My apologies for derailing the G 4 flying topic with mention of a wood stove build. . My fault .Just thought it might help out with someones shop build
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 9 2:24 PM
                                          My apologies for derailing the G 4 flying topic with mention of a wood stove build. . My fault .Just thought it might help out with someones shop build in this extreme winter. I'm happy to report My shop is toasty warm now, fired it up this morning and its 5 degrees out. Lost some paints before I could get it built however. I was smart enough to bring the epoxy glues in the house. I put a box fan behind it on low to circulate and it took about an hour to heat up inside 24 X 30 X 9 . Aluminum is still too cold to work bare handed or even with mechanics gloves on ..I tried.. So the bracket build for the Ag PIG is still on going with My busy season at work upon me Looks like 7 - 10 -12 hour days for the next 2 months, very little progress will be acomplished, but the cash kitty for the project will grow, And thats a GOOD thing.
                                          Stay warm Y'all .



                                          --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, "red" <red@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Brent,
                                          >
                                          > Yeah, it sure is winter out there. :-) Your comment is valid,
                                          > and we will try not to let things get too far off-course. Since shop
                                          > heating is a reasonable aspect of aircraft building, a short digression
                                          > into that topic might be worthwhile, but it needs to stop short of
                                          > pie-in-the-sky methods and political agendas.
                                          >
                                          > I am one moderator here, and there are others, as well. We are
                                          > not here to direct the discussions, but to keep this forum as a
                                          > productive atmosphere to encourage the building of airchairs. I agree
                                          > with you, the discussion should not devolve into survival technologies,
                                          > or politics. Feel free to call for a course correction, when needed.
                                          > We are all rowing the same boat. You can contact me directly by email,
                                          > or on the forum, with your concerns. Persistent nuisances can be
                                          > moderated, if necessary.
                                          >
                                          > If there are any "sticking points" which you or any member has
                                          > run into, there maybe help available for that specific topic, either
                                          > from the membership, or from the archives. I encourage the experienced
                                          > members here to answer such questions with their direct experience,
                                          > rather than a blanket "go search the archives" response to new members.
                                          > You have the floor. :-)
                                          >
                                          > --
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > Red
                                          > ************************
                                          >
                                          > > -----Original Message-----
                                          > > From: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > [mailto:Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brent Cam
                                          > > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 3:54 PM
                                          > > To: Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Subject: [Airchairgroup] Re: G4 FLYING!
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > I was under the impression that "this" forum was about flying
                                          > > and building light weight gliders, personally if I wanted to
                                          > > find out about conventional or non conventional heating
                                          > > systems I would seek those types of forums, IMHO I'm far more
                                          > > interested in flying than heating so please can we stick to
                                          > > flying and gliding related topic's on this forum as this
                                          > > thread is no longer related to this group in any way, thank you. BC
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com, James <res075oh@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Conventional energy systems do not always [if ever] account
                                          > > for all of
                                          > > > the costs [environmental and so on] of their use.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > James
                                          >
                                        • James
                                          Every thing I said can be easily checked out by anyone with internet access and little more than a beginner s knowledge of how to use it. I m not particularly
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 9 3:00 PM
                                            Every thing I said can be easily checked out by anyone with internet
                                            access and little more than a beginner's knowledge of how to use it.
                                            I'm not particularly interested in doing all of your homework for you
                                            but I'll be glad to address a point or two in my post if you're interested.

                                            James
                                            .
                                            .

                                            >
                                            > Posted by: "gypsyinvader" garrywarber@...
                                            > <mailto:garrywarber@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20G4%20FLYING%21>
                                            > gypsyinvader <http://profiles.yahoo.com/gypsyinvader>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Fri Jan 8, 2010 3:57 pm (PST)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > James,
                                            >
                                            > That's all well and good and stuff, but you didn't give any actual
                                            > examples... Kind of an empty rant, I guess.
                                            >
                                            > Garry
                                            >
                                            > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                            > <mailto:Airchairgroup%40yahoogroups.com>, James <res075oh@..
                                            > .> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Conventional energy systems do not always [if ever] account for all of
                                            > the costs [environmental and so on] of their use. One of the troubles
                                            > with "free" energy is that when the costs of the infrastructure are
                                            > totaled up by today's accounting methods they are from two to twenty
                                            > [or more] times the cost of conventional energy delivery. If you want
                                            > to use stored solar energy to heat your home at night there are FAR
                                            > cheaper methods than batteries; especially if you are a DIY'er.
                                            > Whenever any energy delivery system becomes cost competitive with
                                            > conventional methods you will begin to see power companies utilizing
                                            > them for more than the PR "puff pieces" they presently build. The so
                                            > called "carbon tax" is supposed to help alleviate that situation but my
                                            > bet is it will just be another governmental bureaucratic fiasco with
                                            > hundreds of billions of dollars wasted or stolen by crooked politicians.
                                            > James
                                          • James
                                            It sounds like you have a good handle on it. Now back to Airchairs... Regards, James . .
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 11 1:26 PM
                                              It sounds like you have a good handle on it. Now back to Airchairs...

                                              Regards,
                                              James
                                              .
                                              .

                                              >
                                              > Posted by: "gypsyinvader" garrywarber@...
                                              > <mailto:garrywarber@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20G4%20FLYING%21>
                                              > gypsyinvader <http://profiles.yahoo.com/gypsyinvader>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Sun Jan 10, 2010 6:43 am (PST)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Hi James,
                                              >
                                              > Well, the DIY part on far cheaper than batteries caught my interest, but
                                              > not here, now... Besides, I belong to several off-grid groups, and have
                                              > too many books on it. I'm just an info junkie... I suspect you were
                                              > talking passive solar and thermal mass, which is likely what my GOAT
                                              > shed will be using. :-) Sorry about the off-topic guys, but I think I
                                              > offended James, and didn't want to leave it there. Done now... :-)
                                              >
                                              > Garry
                                              > --- In Airchairgroup@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:Airchairgroup%40yahoogroups.com>, James <res075oh@..
                                              > .> wrote:
                                              > Every thing I said can be easily checked out by anyone with internet
                                              > access and little more than a beginner's knowledge of how to use it.
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