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Professor Crackpot again

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  • Doug
    http://www.technologyreview.com/news/513266/will-vertical-turbines-make-more-of-the-wind/
    Message 1 of 11 , May 15, 2013
    • Harry Valentine
      To save cost, multiple VAWT s will need to be linked and drive into a single electrical generator, large water pump or large air compressor . . . the latter
      Message 2 of 11 , May 15, 2013
        To save cost, multiple VAWT's will need to be linked and drive into a single electrical generator, large water pump or large air compressor .  .  . the latter 2-options being the main advantage of VAWT technology .  . .  direct drive avoids the added expense of electrical power transmission.


        Harry


        To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        From: dougselsam@...
        Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 13:16:52 +0000
        Subject: [AWES] Professor Crackpot again

         
      • Joe Faust
        Finding effective AWES farm designs? Smart kite farming? * Kite farms? * Festival experiences? * Congestion incidents? * Front AWES versus aft AWES *
        Message 3 of 11 , May 15, 2013
          Finding effective AWES farm designs?   Smart kite farming?
          • Kite farms?   
          • Festival experiences? 
          • Congestion incidents?
          • Front AWES versus aft AWES
          • Utilizing vertical opportunities
          • Stagnation effect?  
          • Wake effect
          • Mixing collector types 
          • Studies?  What is known?
          • Comparative studies?
          • Operations and maintenance challenges in kite farms?
          • Lessons from the plant world. Lessons from trees?
          • Movement of groups of animals in fluids?
          • Wind: slowing it, disturbing it, mixing it, turbulating it, phasing it, rectifying it, ducting it, encouraging it
          • Thermals and AWES?   Special regions of consistent updrafts and AWES?
          • Kite-farm specialists?   The "farm" of a single unit versus a 'farm' of n-units, n=2, 3, ..., n   ?
          • Robert's algorithm? What is it? Studies? 
          • John Dabiri and his special studies on turbulence?     http://www.energykitesystems.net/Caltech/index.html  
        • Bob Stuart
          Do the prices per watt actually go down with increasing unit size, or up with lower volume of production? It may well be cheaper to just combine the outputs.
          Message 4 of 11 , May 15, 2013
            Do the prices per watt actually go down with increasing unit size, or up with lower volume of production?  It may well be cheaper to just combine the outputs.

            Bob Stuart

            On 15-May-13, at 8:38 AM, Harry Valentine wrote:


            To save cost, multiple VAWT's will need to be linked and drive into a single electrical generator, large water pump or large air compressor .  .  . the latter 2-options being the main advantage of VAWT technology .  . .  direct drive avoids the added expense of electrical power transmission.


            Harry



          • Harry Valentine
            Hi Bob, Electrical generators are expensive . . . a generator of double the output may involve 60% greater capital cost. So yes, price per kW does go down
            Message 5 of 11 , May 15, 2013
              Hi Bob,


              Electrical generators are expensive . .  .  a generator of double the output may involve 60% greater capital cost.  So yes, price per kW does go down with increasing unit size. 

              With water pumps, VAWT's can drive vertical-axis rotary water pumps, including propeller-type designs.

              With piston-type water pumps, a kite that alternately pulls and relaxes on the tether would be very productive and cost competitive .  .  . . horizontal-axis wind turbines driving a crank may also activate piston water pumps (these units are incredibly efficient).

              With regard to air compressors, turbo-compressors and rotary-positive-displacement compressors can be driven by VAWT's .  . . gearboxes will be needed, 

              With regard to piston air compressors, a kite can activate a spring-loaded piston compressor that uses no crankshaft .  . . if a crankshaft is used, horizontal crankshaft best layout for multi-piston compressor .  . . VAWT may drive through 3-constant velocity joints (Voith design) to transform vertical-axis rotary power to horizontal axis rotary power.

              Using constant velocity joints on the mechanical drive line, Doug Selsam's super turbine could drive vertical-axis machinery .  . .  additional driveline joints would activate horizontal-axis machinery,

              Harry 


              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              From: bobstuart@...
              Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:51:18 -0600
              Subject: Re: [AWES] Professor Crackpot again

               
              Do the prices per watt actually go down with increasing unit size, or up with lower volume of production?  It may well be cheaper to just combine the outputs.

              Bob Stuart

              On 15-May-13, at 8:38 AM, Harry Valentine wrote:


              To save cost, multiple VAWT's will need to be linked and drive into a single electrical generator, large water pump or large air compressor .  .  . the latter 2-options being the main advantage of VAWT technology .  . .  direct drive avoids the added expense of electrical power transmission.


              Harry




            • Bob Stuart
              We see such long lines of generators at hydro-electric dams that there may be some limit to economies of scale. Particularly with generators, robotic
              Message 6 of 11 , May 15, 2013
                We see such long lines of generators at hydro-electric dams that there may be some limit to economies of scale.  Particularly with generators, robotic production of small units may be worth investigation, since they are inherently easy to cool.  

                I can't find a description of the Voith CV joint, but I have been encouraging the use of some such device to keep the blades on a superturbine working efficiently and smoothly all around the circle.  Just substituting individual generators might be simpler, and avoid all the troubles over lightweight, aerodynamic drive shafts.  Short blades do economize on material and gearbox expenses; if a factory were dedicated to producing small wind generators, we might focus on getting them up into the wind, and possibly moving them across it on light days.  

                Bob

                On 15-May-13, at 11:14 AM, Harry Valentine wrote:


                Hi Bob,


                Electrical generators are expensive . .  .  a generator of double the output may involve 60% greater capital cost.  So yes, price per kW does go down with increasing unit size. 

                With water pumps, VAWT's can drive vertical-axis rotary water pumps, including propeller-type designs.

                With piston-type water pumps, a kite that alternately pulls and relaxes on the tether would be very productive and cost competitive .  .  . . horizontal-axis wind turbines driving a crank may also activate piston water pumps (these units are incredibly efficient).

                With regard to air compressors, turbo-compressors and rotary-positive-displacement compressors can be driven by VAWT's .  . . gearboxes will be needed, 

                With regard to piston air compressors, a kite can activate a spring-loaded piston compressor that uses no crankshaft .  . . if a crankshaft is used, horizontal crankshaft best layout for multi-piston compressor .  . . VAWT may drive through 3-constant velocity joints (Voith design) to transform vertical-axis rotary power to horizontal axis rotary power.

                Using constant velocity joints on the mechanical drive line, Doug Selsam's super turbine could drive vertical-axis machinery .  . .  additional driveline joints would activate horizontal-axis machinery,

                Harry 


                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                From: bobstuart@...
                Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:51:18 -0600
                Subject: Re: [AWES] Professor Crackpot again

                 
                Do the prices per watt actually go down with increasing unit size, or up with lower volume of production?  It may well be cheaper to just combine the outputs.

                Bob Stuart

                On 15-May-13, at 8:38 AM, Harry Valentine wrote:


                To save cost, multiple VAWT's will need to be linked and drive into a single electrical generator, large water pump or large air compressor .  .  . the latter 2-options being the main advantage of VAWT technology .  . .  direct drive avoids the added expense of electrical power transmission.


                Harry






              • Joe Faust
                Not directly Voith, but [File:Simple CV Joint animated.gif] Part of article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constant-velocity_joint
                Message 7 of 11 , May 15, 2013
                  Not directly Voith, 
                  but 
                  File:Simple CV Joint animated.gif
                  CV joint animation.  Constant velocity joint. 
                  Drive systems. 

                • dave santos
                  Doug,   John Dabiri does not deserve your crude name-calling. Just let the facts speak. In fact, your own work depends on tilting the axis toward vertical,
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 16, 2013
                    Doug,
                     
                    John Dabiri does not deserve your crude name-calling. Just let the facts speak. In fact, your own work depends on tilting the axis toward vertical, to reach working altitude, so be fair.
                     
                    While I agree with Fort's doubts (and respectful tone), John Dabiri is a formidable scientist who deserves to take chances in questioning orthodoxy. His narrow thesis regarding small-scale  wind-farms and aggregate stream-tube efficiency is not a claim about megascale windpower. Lets await his results with interest, since he does a great job sharing lessons. The world is not done playing with cross-axis turbines, even if they are not the primary windpower basis. They still have many uses as fans.
                     
                    Harry raises a brilliant possibility, to aggregate VAWT power with rope-drives fanned-in to giant generators (Bob- These scale to >750MW units). This is close to some real AWES concepts we have pondered. Stop complaining so much about smart folks who keep an open mind, and open yours.
                     
                    All of us are personal friends or direct acquaintances: Enjoy the range of opinions,
                     
                    daveS
                     
                  • VonMusus
                    Kitegen seems to have gotten funding (Ed.) http://www.sabic.com/ventures/portfolio Paolo Musumeci Sent from my iPad
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 17, 2013

                      Paolo Musumeci

                      Sent from my iPad


                    • Joe Faust
                      Opinion: Are school of fish turbine arrays a red herring?
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 24, 2013
                      • Doug
                        I told you these idiots were full of crap. Anyone who knows anything about wind energy knew this at a glance. It is amazing how much traction people can get
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 25, 2013
                          I told you these idiots were full of crap.
                          Anyone who knows anything about wind energy knew this at a glance.
                          It is amazing how much traction people can get for their foolish uninformed ideas. Start with complete ignorance as a foundation and extrapolate from there. Yes let's see... we'll start with the type of turbine known to be more expensive, less powerful, and less reliable, then attempt to optimize it on the basis of a wished-for technicality!

                          What about applying whale-bumps to the blades? Did the geniuses miss that opportunity to combine more failing ideas into their dubious scheme? Funny how you have Professor Crackpots like this who know nothing about wind energy, getting investors who also know nothing about wind energy, all excited. Between all that combined ignorance, how could they be wrong? Like the thousand flies at the outhouse? A thousand press-releases later, the truth begins to sift thru as someone finally decided to apply a bullshit filter.
                          WA~ Wa~ wa~
                          Doug Selsam


                          --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Opinion: Are "school of fish" turbine arrays a red herring?
                          > <http://www.gizmag.com/dabiri-fish-school-wind-farms/28355/?utm_source=G\
                          > izmag+Subscribers&utm_campaign=0b57887131-UA-2235360-4&utm_medium=email&\
                          > utm_term=0_65b67362bd-0b57887131-90223402>
                          > By Mike Barnard, July 23, 2013.
                          >
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