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Re: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

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  • brooksdesign
    Although my day job has taken all of my available time for the last couple of years but I ve been trying to keep an eye out for properties to do this on. My
    Message 1 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
      Although my day job has taken all of my available time for the last couple of years but I've been trying to keep an eye out for properties to do this on. My goal is to set up a property with good access to electric lines and large open areas with the purpose of setting up such an encampment. The deal would be, I would provide the land and smart meter box on a pole. "Tenants" would park an RV or pitch a tent and be required to generate a certain amount of metered power for rent and any power over that amount is profit for the AWES operators. Also each operator would be required to keep a log of hours spent maintaining their systems and create a blog explaining the problems and solutions found. This would be open to ALL types of alt energy production. An ongoing experimental village that produces more than it uses. That's my goal. Maybe I'll even get around to building the "DEVICE" I designed years ago. If only the certified quality sensors I need didn't cost more than I make in a year....DaveS offered to fund before he realized I don't use plastic cups and soda straws to make my demos.
      -brooks
      -----Original Message-----
      From: dave santos
      Sent: Jan 7, 2013 10:27 AM
      To: "AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com"
      Subject: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

       

      Pierre,

      Interesting configuration.

      Your hybrid concept matches what Doug (USWindLabs) and i recently discussed by phone, to take a stack of 2x4 lumber and carve a a bunch of SuperTurbine blades to lift under Mothra1 in rows, as part of ongoing NOKE/Util/KiteLab/UTexas/Skymill partnered work. We did not cover many details, but an obvious open question to test is whether its better to torque or tug the drive-rope (USWindLabs v. SkyMill Multi-Rotor Methods). FlipWings, flygens, captive kiteplanes, and all sorts of groundgens would also be tested.

      As you know, a circle of Forum Members are planning an intensive group flying encampment, but its unclear where, except that it has to be a good kite wind and work location. At the moment it could be Italy, Scotland, Texas, California, (France?), etc.. If anyone else wants to host this AWE "Technical Woodstock" Spring/Summer, they need to meet most criteria in the recent AWES R&D ideal location check-list. The location decision is due soon, so momentum is not lost.

      There are project funds to cover spartan direct expenses for the intensive kite work, but it helps if more angel funding is brought to the table and shared. Everyone with a willingness to learn or possessing key skills is invited to come help direct-test leading methods side-by-side, if not to decide winners, then at least to gain ever more experience. No doubt an intense "encampment event" will greatly advance us all.

      So how would you like to see your concept sketch come alive so soon?

      daveS

       


    • dave santos
      Pierre, Yes, this Arch-SuperTurbine idea will be tested at the Encampment, along with as many other concepts as possible. This will give participants direct
      Message 2 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
        Pierre,

        Yes, this Arch-SuperTurbine idea will be tested at the Encampment, along with as many other concepts as possible. This will give participants direct experience of the diversity of solutions, and maybe clear indications of what works best.

        Brooks,

        No need for you to buy property for your energy village, when you can use our San Marcos Hay Farm. We already have an anchor-field in place, and the grid connection runs to the center of the giant hay field. The owners are totally cool, with many skills (from aviation to manufacturing on site). Ed is pushing for the encampment there, but Italy is also waycool. Gaetano is pushing Italy hard, where we have two small airports eager to host experiments. You would have to eat gourmet Italian somehow.

        You are still offered to share our current funding, but the one requirement is to meet a specific milestone with a clear deliverable. This can be your proposal, or some aspect of the larger projects. Zap Power is also presumed willing to participate in a major way via the Basket Fund. Your talent finally applied to AWE in a focused effort is very desirable. 

        We also count on you to keep Joel Sholtz in the loop. The hit TV comedy, "Big Bang Theory", recently mentioned a Sholtz "Delta Raptor" (the "Alpha Geek" characters are variously masters of theoretical quantum physics, work for NASA JPL on planetary robotics, and fly kites as a hobby. The insufferable Texan polymath character even beat the Indian chap at patang fighting. Once again, Hollywood rips off our personal bios, sigh, :) 

        You may also want to carpool with Ed to Lufkin to pow-wow with the WhataKite giant kite master, Barry Ogletree,

        daveS
         


      • edoishi
        Pierre et al, I am happy to see this proposal. M2 was built to test as many ideas as possible. Lifting superTurbines is certainly a key early test. One aspect
        Message 3 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
          Pierre et al,

          I am happy to see this proposal. M2 was built to test as many ideas as possible. Lifting superTurbines is certainly a key early test.

          One aspect of your design, however, has me puzzled: The use of a floating spar. It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration; namely, using the EARTH itself to spread the kite cross wind. Keep in mind that even the 300 sq ft (~30 m^2) miniMothra has a minimum of 100 ft (~30m) between anchor points. When we had it flying with 100 ft of rope on each wingtip, it was necessary to spread the anchor points further - closer to 150 ft (~45m).

          So, how can we build this giant floating spar? And does it scale well?

          This debate does beg the question, though, of how a series of ground based generators relates to a rotating arch. Do we need a series of concentric tracks? The outer track handles the anchor points. The inner tracks handle the generators. ???

          Another option is to have a single ground-gen in the center, itself able to rotate, or spin.

          If we are able to find a location where rotation is not necessary, then it would be easy to fill the volume with superturbines, flip-wings, super flip-wings, etc...

          THEN AGAIN, maybe the giant floating spar is the answer.
          Floating on water . . . ?

          -Ed Sapir
          Util/KiteLab





          --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
          >
          > Here is a huge arch with a farm of Superturbines (tm) side by side.Superturbines (2,3,4) are held by the arch (1).Both the basis of arch and Superturbines are held by the floating spar (5).Cables (6) from the ends of the spar join the anchor (8).So all the system can turn according to winds directions,the spar pivoting.Note:this description prevent to fill a French application (but I have a registred copyright) for a patent due to present disclosure,but not for US patent in the year.Observations,improvments?It looks like a good wedding between Arch and Superturbine,if no divorce later. PierreB http://flygenkite.com
          >
        • Pierre BENHAIEM
          Ed Sapir and all, The floating spar (inflatable spar or beam)allows rotation of the system by a small swivelling tray close to the anchor,that according to
          Message 4 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013


            Ed Sapir and all,

             

            The floating spar (inflatable spar or beam)allows rotation of the system by a small swivelling tray close to the anchor,that according to wind direction (Usually Arch allow only one wind direction due to 2 anchors).On the ground the floating spar is the same but on a solid swivelling tray.Of course for this use arch and Superturbines are in stationary mode (not really crosswind) like for Superturbine alone.Spar carries arch and its 2 anchors at to ends and Superturbines.

            which are held by the spar,and by the arch for their respective ends.

             

            PierreB

            > Message du 08/01/13 02:03
            > De : "edoishi"
            > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            > Copie à :
            > Objet : [AWES] Re: Arch multirotor
            >
            >  

            > Pierre et al,
            >
            > I am happy to see this proposal. M2 was built to test as many ideas as possible. Lifting superTurbines is certainly a key early test.
            >
            > One aspect of your design, however, has me puzzled: The use of a floating spar. It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration; namely, using the EARTH itself to spread the kite cross wind. Keep in mind that even the 300 sq ft (~30 m^2) miniMothra has a minimum of 100 ft (~30m) between anchor points. When we had it flying with 100 ft of rope on each wingtip, it was necessary to spread the anchor points further - closer to 150 ft (~45m).
            >
            > So, how can we build this giant floating spar? And does it scale well?
            >
            > This debate does beg the question, though, of how a series of ground based generators relates to a rotating arch. Do we need a series of concentric tracks? The outer track handles the anchor points. The inner tracks handle the generators. ???
            >
            > Another option is to have a single ground-gen in the center, itself able to rotate, or spin.
            >
            > If we are able to find a location where rotation is not necessary, then it would be easy to fill the volume with superturbines, flip-wings, super flip-wings, etc...
            >
            > THEN AGAIN, maybe the giant floating spar is the answer.
            > Floating on water . . . ?
            >
            > -Ed Sapir
            > Util/KiteLab
            >
            > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
            > >
            > > Here is a huge arch with a farm of Superturbines (tm) side by side.Superturbines (2,3,4) are held by the arch (1).Both the basis of arch and Superturbines are held by the floating spar (5).Cables (6) from the ends of the spar join the anchor (8).So all the system can turn according to winds directions,the spar pivoting.Note:this description prevent to fill a French application (but I have a registred copyright) for a patent due to present disclosure,but not for US patent in the year.Observations,improvments?It looks like a good wedding between Arch and Superturbine,if no divorce later. PierreB http://flygenkite.com
            > >
            >
            >

          • Pierre BENHAIEM
            It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration but also allows changes of wind direction. PierreB ... It seems it
            Message 5 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013

              " It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration" but also allows changes of wind direction.

               

              PierreB




              > Message du 08/01/13 02:03
              > De : "edoishi"
              > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              > Copie à :
              > Objet : [AWES] Re: Arch multirotor
              >
              >  

              > Pierre et al,
              >
              > I am happy to see this proposal. M2 was built to test as many ideas as possible. Lifting superTurbines is certainly a key early test.
              >
              > One aspect of your design, however, has me puzzled: The use of a floating spar. It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration; namely, using the EARTH itself to spread the kite cross wind. Keep in mind that even the 300 sq ft (~30 m^2) miniMothra has a minimum of 100 ft (~30m) between anchor points. When we had it flying with 100 ft of rope on each wingtip, it was necessary to spread the anchor points further - closer to 150 ft (~45m).
              >
              > So, how can we build this giant floating spar? And does it scale well?
              >
              > This debate does beg the question, though, of how a series of ground based generators relates to a rotating arch. Do we need a series of concentric tracks? The outer track handles the anchor points. The inner tracks handle the generators. ???
              >
              > Another option is to have a single ground-gen in the center, itself able to rotate, or spin.
              >
              > If we are able to find a location where rotation is not necessary, then it would be easy to fill the volume with superturbines, flip-wings, super flip-wings, etc...
              >
              > THEN AGAIN, maybe the giant floating spar is the answer.
              > Floating on water . . . ?
              >
              > -Ed Sapir
              > Util/KiteLab
              >
              > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
              > >
              > > Here is a huge arch with a farm of Superturbines (tm) side by side.Superturbines (2,3,4) are held by the arch (1).Both the basis of arch and Superturbines are held by the floating spar (5).Cables (6) from the ends of the spar join the anchor (8).So all the system can turn according to winds directions,the spar pivoting.Note:this description prevent to fill a French application (but I have a registred copyright) for a patent due to present disclosure,but not for US patent in the year.Observations,improvments?It looks like a good wedding between Arch and Superturbine,if no divorce later. PierreB http://flygenkite.com
              > >
              >
              >

            • edoishi
              Anchor points on a track configured in a circle also allows for rotation of the arch as wind shifts. With miniMothra we physically moved one anchor point
              Message 6 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
                Anchor points on a track configured in a circle also allows for rotation of the arch as wind shifts.

                With miniMothra we physically moved one anchor point repeatedly - even digging new sand anchors - eventually my super-strong 2 meter tall friend muscled one anchor point around to find the best wind as can be seen in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-cC7qSpnbg
                (towards the end)

                Another question - must the kite arch lift the beam as well as the turbines ?
                And - does the beam have to be rigid enough to counter the force of an arch pulling like mad?
                Which brings me back to: how do you make such an impressive +/- 40 meter beam?



                --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
                >
                > " It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration" but also allows changes of wind direction. PierreB
                >
                >
                >
              • dave santos
                Quote- It seems (a rotating control bar) negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration but also allows changes of wind direction,
                Message 7 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
                  Quote- "It seems (a rotating control bar) negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration" but also allows changes of wind direction,"

                  Pierre, 

                  What Ed means is that we cannot easily or cheaply scale up a "control bar" as an arch wind direction compliance mechanism. Instead, for early megascale (2012: > 0.1 km) arches, with only limited funding, we have shown that simple belay between ground anchors, or use of anchor vehicles, are the cheap practical means. 

                  We are confident that the belay method megascales, based on industrial rigging and winching models with comparable loads and speeds. Since we hope to power even cities with weak economies with GigaWatt AWES units, we avoid dependence on expensive giant ground structures. Design-for-automation is not urgent at the megascale, since labor is a manageable expense with the economy-of-scale.

                  To rotate arches, we have explored carousels, circle-tracks, and circle-cableways, including many small tests.  Ed even has a circular model train track still to test, and i am doing circular cableway experiments. A giant control bar seems better than a full carousel at least, in terms of capital cost and embodied material. We can adopt it if we need to...

                  daveS


                   
                • Joe Faust
                  edoishi, In Pierre s floating spar ... I was reading the matter as a spar floating on the sea to keep the arch anchor point spread; then I
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
                    edoishi, 
                                 In Pierre's " floating spar"     ... I was reading the matter as a spar floating on the sea to keep the arch anchor point spread; then I was seeing weathercocking with the floating-on-water spreader spar.       Pierre?
                  • Joe Faust
                    For sea arch-kite spreading of anchors, consider not a spar but a tension line at sea surface with the tension provided by lateral veering kite trains, but
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
                      For sea arch-kite spreading of anchors, consider not a spar but a tension line at sea surface with the tension provided by lateral veering kite trains, but with a water-ballast container to stop lifting; the water-ballast could be sea-floor anchored.  Hence no "spar" for spreader, but still the whole matter floating and weathercocking.    The spread cold be adjustable.
                      ~JoeF
                    • Joe Faust
                      http://energykitesystems.net/KiteEnergyImages/TensionSpreadAnchorsArch.j pg
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
                      • Joe Faust
                        Multiply and let fellow arches help in the spreading effort: http://energykitesystems.net/KiteEnergyImages/TensionSpreadAnchorsArchMu ltiple.jpg
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
                          Multiply and let fellow arches help in the spreading effort: 

                        • dave santos
                          Joe, That s brilliant, that a single anchor in deep water can host a long kite bridle underwater, with a naturally spreading megascale kite arch above water
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013
                            Joe,

                            That's brilliant, that a single anchor in deep water can host a long kite bridle underwater, with a naturally spreading megascale kite arch above water able to rotate to face any direction. This looks like a real offshore AWES conceptual breakthrough.

                            The added kite trains are not required, if the arch is closely controllable. An arch naturally creates spreading force, just as a sled kite does. A floating platform at each side can support kite handling and energy operations.

                            daveS

                            PS Noting your CC IP for this idea...
                             



                          • Pierre BENHAIEM
                            Another question - must the kite arch lift the beam as well as the turbines ? no. And - does the beam have to be rigid enough to counter the force of an
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013


                              "Another question - must the kite arch lift the beam as well as the turbines ?" no.
                              "And - does the beam have to be rigid enough to counter the force of an arch pulling like mad?"In fact this installation is mainly for a floating system where tethers linking the spar to the anchor upwind work as counterforce.
                              "Which brings me back to: how do you make such an impressive +/- 40 meter beam?" Idem,the spar can be large enough if it has tethers linking the anchor.

                               

                              PierreB




                              > Message du 08/01/13 03:05
                              > De : "edoishi"
                              > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              > Copie à :
                              > Objet : [AWES] Re: Arch multirotor
                              >
                              >  

                              >
                              > Anchor points on a track configured in a circle also allows for rotation of the arch as wind shifts.
                              >
                              > With miniMothra we physically moved one anchor point repeatedly - even digging new sand anchors - eventually my super-strong 2 meter tall friend muscled one anchor point around to find the best wind as can be seen in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-cC7qSpnbg
                              > (towards the end)
                              >
                              > Another question - must the kite arch lift the beam as well as the turbines ?
                              > And - does the beam have to be rigid enough to counter the force of an arch pulling like mad?
                              > Which brings me back to: how do you make such an impressive +/- 40 meter beam?
                              >
                              > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
                              > >
                              > > " It seems it negates one of the principle advantages of using an arch configuration" but also allows changes of wind direction. PierreB
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >

                            • Pierre BENHAIEM
                              JoeF, This design could be an important improvement.Where are Superturbines?On the tether at sea level? PierreB ... JoeF, This design could be an important
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013


                                JoeF,

                                 

                                This design could be an important improvement.Where are Superturbines?On the tether at sea level?

                                 

                                PierreB



                                > Message du 08/01/13 05:00
                                > De : "Joe Faust"
                                > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                > Copie à :
                                > Objet : [AWES] Re: Arch multirotor
                                >
                                >  

                                > Multiply and let fellow arches help in the spreading effort: 


                                >
                              • Pierre BENHAIEM
                                Superturbines and Arch can work together offshore. Upwind towards downwind:1) anchor and pivot2) tethers from pivot to floating spar,as counterforce3) Super
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jan 7, 2013


                                  Superturbines and Arch can work together offshore.

                                   

                                  Upwind towards downwind:

                                  1) anchor and pivot

                                  2) tethers from pivot to floating spar,as counterforce

                                  3) Super Turbines and two ends of Arch fixed on the spar
                                  4) The top end of each Super Turbine fixed on the same Arch or one Superturbine for one Arch several times  (from JoeF' design).

                                   

                                  The spar is needed to carry the installation;the tethers beetween spar and pivot (see 1) allow any dimensions for the spar which also can be not rigid.But test and see.

                                   

                                  PierreB 

                                  > Message du 08/01/13 08:08
                                  > De : "Pierre BENHAIEM"
                                  > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Copie à :
                                  > Objet : re: [AWES] Re: Arch multirotor
                                  >
                                  >  

                                  >

                                  >
                                  > JoeF,

                                  >  

                                  > This design could be an important improvement.Where are Superturbines?On the tether at sea level?

                                  >  

                                  > PierreB
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  > Message du 08/01/13 05:00
                                  > > De : "Joe Faust"
                                  > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Copie à :
                                  > > Objet : [AWES] Re: Arch multirotor
                                  > >
                                  > >  

                                  > > Multiply and let fellow arches help in the spreading effort: 


                                  > >
                                • Joe Faust
                                  Options during sleep, as I was concerned with freedom of traveling boats and ship with regard to the tension spreader:
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jan 8, 2013
                                    Options during sleep, as I was concerned with freedom of traveling boats and ship with regard to the tension spreader: 




                                    Yes: CC IP
                                    ~JoeF
                                  • Joe Faust
                                    Not shown are option of WECs hanging from arch kite. Note in post of today that there is room to hang and anchor the draping WECs between arch and the
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jan 8, 2013
                                      Not shown are option of WECs hanging from arch kite.
                                      Note in post of today that there is room to hang and anchor the draping WECs between arch and the aerialized tension spreader line. No sea-surface beam in these options.

                                      JoeF
                                    • brooksdesign
                                      Yes need to buy property since the point is to have a full time dedicated site with biz plan. The plan is to prove or disprove the economic viability of
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 8, 2013
                                        Yes need to buy property since the point is to have a full time dedicated site with biz plan. The plan is to prove or disprove the economic viability of managing systems that require a lot of operational upkeep(hence the need for live in operators). This is not meant as a few people to come out to"Visit" to do a day of testing ideas and then go home and call it a success. Success will be determined by a full years worth of data to see which designs are worth the trouble or would it be less hassle just to sit on a generator bike and peddle power the same amount the operators would do just running around the field chasing down the line snags and relaunching kites. A few seconds of video from a long day of running around does not prove a successful biz model.
                                        -brooks
                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: dave santos
                                        Sent: Jan 7, 2013 5:14 PM
                                        To: "AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com"
                                        Subject: Re: Direct Testing Encampment //Re: [AWES] Arch multirotor

                                         

                                        Pierre,

                                        Yes, this Arch-SuperTurbine idea will be tested at the Encampment, along with as many other concepts as possible. This will give participants direct experience of the diversity of solutions, and maybe clear indications of what works best.

                                        Brooks,

                                        No need for you to buy property for your energy village, when you can use our San Marcos Hay Farm. We already have an anchor-field in place, and the grid connection runs to the center of the giant hay field. The owners are totally cool, with many skills (from aviation to manufacturing on site). Ed is pushing for the encampment there, but Italy is also waycool. Gaetano is pushing Italy hard, where we have two small airports eager to host experiments. You would have to eat gourmet Italian somehow.

                                        You are still offered to share our current funding, but the one requirement is to meet a specific milestone with a clear deliverable. This can be your proposal, or some aspect of the larger projects. Zap Power is also presumed willing to participate in a major way via the Basket Fund. Your talent finally applied to AWE in a focused effort is very desirable. 

                                        We also count on you to keep Joel Sholtz in the loop. The hit TV comedy, "Big Bang Theory", recently mentioned a Sholtz "Delta Raptor" (the "Alpha Geek" characters are variously masters of theoretical quantum physics, work for NASA JPL on planetary robotics, and fly kites as a hobby. The insufferable Texan polymath character even beat the Indian chap at patang fighting. Once again, Hollywood rips off our personal bios, sigh, :) 

                                        You may also want to carpool with Ed to Lufkin to pow-wow with the WhataKite giant kite master, Barry Ogletree,

                                        daveS
                                         


                                      • dave santos
                                        Brooks, Our man, Roy Taylor (and his wife) own the Hay Farm, and he invites us all to live there and hack energy. Its even a real airfield for small planes. We
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 8, 2013
                                          Brooks,

                                          Our man, Roy Taylor (and his wife) own the Hay Farm, and he invites us all to live there and hack energy. Its even a real airfield for small planes. We put an Util RV there and lived for weeks last summer. There are two existing households, with electrical need, and live-in expert farm help, to keep anything working. The hay is an energy crop as well (biogas and char).

                                          So if you want to act on your plan without the trouble and delay of land acquisition and attracting worthy tenants, this is an ideal set-up. Perhaps a visit (with Ed) to scout it would help you get excited. You could even buy the farm (Taylor is a real horse-trader) if you insist, and sell it back when you get bored or desperate for liquidity. This is not really about who owns what.

                                          You and Taylor would be a real pair of characters,

                                          daveS
                                           


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