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Re: pumping AWE - (my dog gets up)

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  • Doug
    In answer to your statement below, Paul Gipe tested a SuperTurbine(R) at his test site for a year. That does not indicate he was thinking no further
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 11, 2012
      In answer to your statement below, Paul Gipe tested a SuperTurbine(R) at his test site for a year. That does not indicate he was thinking "no further revolution in wind energy is possible". To the contrary, Paul would not drive out to his site, help put up a turbine, and run it for a year, taking data, and publish the results, then write a few pages about it in his bestselling book, with photos, if he had a closed mind. Nope, it means he has a very OPEN mind to improvements that CAN be run for a year due to someone working out the details, and creating a reliable machine, before asking the world's biggest wind guru to try the new idea and declare one a genius.

      Here are Paul's results testing a SuperTwin(TM) at 8 feet diameter:
      http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html

      Here are Paul's results testing a market-leading Bergey at an 8-foot diameter:
      http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html

      Note the SuperTwin(TM) using blades made from 2x4's from Home Depot outperformed the in-production Bergey with NREL airfoils.

      Declaring Paul as "poor guy" saying he wasted half his life, and imagining that he and the rest of the wind energy world recognizes your work as superseding their history of powering millions of houses is quite delusional. I mean really delusional. I think you might be getting JUST a little ahead of yourself...

      Saw AWE coming? Saw a waste of more millions of dollars as more newbies re-create thousand-year-old failures under the guise that they are trying something new? What di you want him to do, start promoting Magenn like the rest of the idiots? And what else can you call someone promoting a Magenn? Hey Dave I hate to break it to you but AWE is not here yet. I agree that it has huge potential. If anyone agrees, it is me going back decades. But potential is not the same as mastering it or even utilizing it. Nobody has really utilized airborne wind energy for generating electricity in the broader sense yet. Only as a brief demo, not for actual use. Moreover there is nothing on the horizon. You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress. I don;t see why. I don't see a problem with the concept of their flying propeller array. Then you have the vast majority of AWE ideas that are characteristic of not comprehending really anything about wind, about energy, or business, or anything else, let alone inculcating a new industry.

      Do you understand why Paul Gipe would not even talk to you or entertain your nonsense for a single second? Why the first thing he said to you was "Seeya!"? Been there doen that. I'm sure Paul could easily spend every waking hour entertaining the fantasies of thousands of "Why Won't You Listen To ME" newbies, all spouting the same old tired nonsense of citing piston engines, the Wright Brothers, and promoting reciprocating cycles etc.

      While we have heard a LOT of nonsense in the field of wind energy over the years, I think your Bose Einstein wobblers take the cake as perhaps the most irrelevant and misguided "I'm a genius - wheee!" thinking we have ever seen in windnenergy - as chicks like to say when they are being sarcastic "good luck with that"....

      Meanwhile, the idea of a crankshaft is not lost on me - sure I can see why it seems promising. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. Whether it will form an economical wind energy solution waits to be seen (again). It has never worked out on the ground but maybe it will be different in the air. So go ahead and try it. I guess you would have to make a kite that went up then down automatically, then make a crankshaft, mate it with the right gearbox, the right generator, a proper inverter, maybe a way to smooth out the intermittent power, then connect it all together - oh well, too hard - nevermind.

      Of course you could always just throw away everything but the kite that goes up then down and connect it to a well, but a task that simple and stark only serves to illuminate the lack of ability/willingness/focus to get any system working no matter how simple.

      If you ever want to get a steady 1 kW in about a 20 mph wind, no questions asked, try carving a 2x4 wall stud into a windmill rotor. Maybe you could apply for a grant for $3 to buy the materials. The weight will be maybe 3 lbs. Rotation will be steady-state, able to spin a generator fast. It will last for many years.

      I'm not sure how much crankshaft, gearbox, computer, generator,and kite you might need to generate that same steady-state 1 kW, but what we've seen over the years is the newbie's machines often weigh several TONS and cannot match the output of the cheapest off-the-shelf turbines with plastic blades.

      But hey, I'd love to see it - I could see some very interesting machines emerging. But I doubt if we will see it. I think it will all be talk, and that's it. I think people have an inner sense of whether they are wasting their time and nobody will ever build one.

      But it would be very fun to see.
      :)


      --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote: > We contacted Gipe recently in a small AWE group. He insists he is not an engineer who can properly settle tough technical questions. It wasn't even him who first spotted the funky backyard "fantasy turbine" fad, some German wind super-engineer did. Gipe did enjoy taking the top public lead over the decades in claiming no further revolution in wind energy was possible!*�Poor guy spent half his life promoting conventional wind and never once saw AWE coming. Who else you got for us to learn from?
      >
      > daveS
      >
      >
      > * Presumably including Superturbine (R) claims.
      >
    • Joe Faust
      Many years ago a blade made for less than $1 was producing electricity that was useful by DaveS:
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 11, 2012
        Many years ago a blade made for less than $1  was producing electricity that was useful
        by DaveS: 
      • dave santos
        Doug, You go back and forth between AWE is easy , an matter of making something in a weekend and statements like nothing on the horizon . Why not admit
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 11, 2012
          Doug,

          You go back and forth between "AWE is easy", an matter of making something "in a weekend" and statements like "nothing on the horizon". Why not admit that the truth is somewhere in the middle of these ridiculous extremes?

          Make no mistake, AWE is not about any bitter self-proclaimed "greatest living wind energy inventor", but about the upper wind resource, which is real, even if Gipe never noticed it. 

          It will take a few more years and a few thousand talented engineers, but its a rather certain outcome that the right kites will emerge to do the job.

          How can one be so confident? Get out there with a cheap power kite and feel it *

          daveS

          * Learning to fly in modern shared airspace helps too.



        • Doug
          Ok I will accept that an arch utilizes the ground because I also subscribe to the principle of using the ground as a structural element. And I know who the
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 11, 2012
            Ok I will accept that an arch utilizes the ground because I also subscribe to the principle of using the ground as a structural element. And I know who the German Super-Engineer you are talking about is. Been to his website that discusses various wind ideas. He knows his shit inside-out, but as I remember he had a very closed mind that was not open even a crack. He's professor crack, without the pot. I was waiting for his website to cover SuperTurbine(R) but I haven't seen his site in years. As I recall he did not exhibit much in the way of a sense of humor.

            --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
            >
            > Doug,
            >
            > Relax. Your Eternal Atman is not attacked; its only hurtful attitudes holding you down, like how you ignore aviation wisdom and piss on academia. Let such stressful habits go and you will be happy.
            >
            > If you then eagerly desire that your turbines can finally fly high, under a Mothra, they need to be hoistable by a halyard. Landing skids or legs, and a tail surface need to be light and effective. A suitable conductor cable of about 500ft�completes preparation for flight. Let me know how much of this you can handle, and if you can match funds for the demo with us (Util, LLC) after spending so much on patents. Berlin 2013 is a great demo opp, if you can meet us there. We might cover costs if you are broke, but willing to work hard for a shot at glory.
            >
            > Its silly to imagine dumping sand is Morthra's sole raison d'etre.��Yes, it was an "impressive stunt"; thanks for the rare compliment. Make no mistake: Our�claimed engineering revolution is to lift almost anything, anywhere, cheap, with wind.
            >
            > We contacted Gipe recently in a small AWE group. He insists he is not an engineer who can properly settle tough technical questions. It wasn't even him who first spotted the funky backyard "fantasy turbine" fad, some German wind super-engineer did. Gipe did enjoy taking the top public lead over the decades in claiming no further revolution in wind energy was possible!*�Poor guy spent half his life promoting conventional wind and never once saw AWE coming. Who else you got for us to learn from?
            >
            > daveS
            >
            >
            > * Presumably including Superturbine (R) claims.
            >
          • Doug
            Yup it is super easy, just order the parts and hook it up. That s why I say there are no serious players. Imagine the new NASA wondering how to plant a tree.
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 11, 2012
              Yup it is super easy, just order the parts and hook it up. That's why I say there are no serious players. Imagine the new NASA wondering how to plant a tree. Well NASA, there's a tree and there's a shovel, see if you can figure it out. If it was a tree in Mars you could do it! Bring some of those guys in!
              OK here's a kite and here's a windmill. Can you plant the windmill in the sky? Duh. How can anyone pretend it would be hard? How can anyone spend a hundred thousand dollars and not just build one and fly it? How can Magenn hold a straight face for years and nobody ever says "Hey that thing makes less power than a cheapo wind turbine hanging from a 20-dollar balloon or kite!" There is a sense of drama superseding common sense, as though we are in a dream where we are all paralyzed so we don't hurt ourselves. Nobody can face even the simplest reality.
              Yes I believe AWE suffers from SLEEP PARALYSIS, But I think it could be done decently in a week of time, and I can make half-ass demos in a day. Wish i had more time for it.
              I can think of so many machines to try and only a couple under construction.

              --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
              >
              > Doug,
              >
              > You go back and forth between "AWE is easy", an matter of making something "in a weekend" and statements like "nothing on the horizon". Why not admit that the truth is somewhere in the middle of these ridiculous extremes?
              >
              > Make no mistake, AWE is not about any bitter self-proclaimed "greatest living wind energy inventor", but about the upper wind resource, which is real, even if Gipe never noticed it.�
              >
              > It will take a few more years and a few thousand talented engineers, but its a rather certain outcome that the right kites will emerge to do the job.
              >
              > How can one be so confident? Get out there with a cheap power kite and feel it *
              >
              > daveS
              >
              > * Learning to fly in modern shared airspace helps too.
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              >
            • dave santos
              Much AWE progress has clearly happened in recent years. A few hundred really sharp engineers are deep into the work.  Early proofs-of-concept milestones are
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 12, 2012
                Much AWE progress has clearly happened in recent years. A few hundred really sharp engineers are deep into the work. 

                Early proofs-of-concept milestones are met. Remaining barriers fall daily. 

                At the current rate of accelerating progress we have already entered the singularity suggested by critical path analysis. AWE may go supernova faster and hotter than Oil did, given such a vast well-distributed superior wind resource. 

                About half of all broadly educated folks on the planet now know something about the quest. Many new talents are joining. A powerful social intelligence is clearly mobilizing to decisively solve AWE. 

                We get our "AWE Manhattan Project" after all; its to be globally cloud-sourced. 

                We race toward an unstoppable revolution beyond imagining.















              • Doug
                The barrel of dynamite has always been there. I don t see anyone lighting the fuse yet.
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 12, 2012
                  The barrel of dynamite has always been there.
                  I don't see anyone lighting the fuse yet.

                  --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Much�AWE progress has clearly happened in recent years.�A few hundred really sharp engineers are deep into the work.�
                  >
                  > Early proofs-of-concept milestones are met.�Remaining barriers fall daily.�
                  >
                  > At the�current rate of accelerating progress we have already entered the singularity suggested by critical path analysis. AWE may go supernova faster and hotter than Oil did, given such a vast well-distributed superior wind resource.�
                  >
                  > About half of all broadly educated folks on the planet now know something about the quest.�Many new talents are joining.�A powerful social intelligence is clearly mobilizing to decisively solve AWE.�
                  >
                  > We get our "AWE Manhattan Project" after all; its to be globally cloud-sourced.�
                  >
                  > We race toward an unstoppable revolution beyond imagining.
                  >
                • Joe Faust
                  Have at the Berlin flight field next year: Towered turbine weighing 2 tonnes in all parts, including anchoring, tower, generator, and blades, etc. Near the
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 12, 2012
                    Have at the Berlin flight field next year: 

                    Towered turbine weighing 2 tonnes in all parts, including anchoring, tower, generator, and blades, etc. 
                    Near the towered turbine have 2 tonnes of AWES flying and generating electricity. 
                    Have a huge meter showing the contest between the same-weighted systems;
                    show the electricity being made side by side. Let the meter data be live casted
                    on YouTube; notify all newspapers around the world.  Have the FAI and other special bodies certify the contest. 

                    Old
                    New
                    .... let the revolution begin in Berlin. 

                    Or some other mass totals.  What is the total mass of a  Selsam SuperTwin(TM)?
                  • dave santos
                    Doug Wrote-  The barrel of dynamite has always been there. I don t see anyone lighting the fuse yet. For Newcomers to the Forum, its worth noting how
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 12, 2012
                      Doug Wrote- 

                      "The barrel of dynamite has always been there. I don't see anyone lighting the fuse yet."


                      For Newcomers to the Forum, its worth noting how highly we honor Etzler and Pocock as the visionary founders of modern AWE, almost 200 years ago. It was they, and others even more ancient, who "lit the fuse" of the AWE "barrel-of-dynamite". Doug was not there.

                      The fuse has burned nicely ever since, as Joe's historical archives confirm. We count Hargrave, Cody, and many others in the late 19th century. Weather and barrage kites in vast numbers advanced the art for decades. Even as the kite-derived airplane finally dominated, tethered aviation still evolved greatly in places like Germany (tethered gliders). NASA had a run of great soft wing pioneers in its glory-years (Jalbert, Rogallo, Barrish, etc.). Then came the all the wonderful power-kite sports and new glider sports, and ship-kite pioneers like Dave Culp. Now we have a serious movement with multiple engineering savants and teams homing in on major success.

                      If only Doug could open his eyes to this fantastic history. The long-burning fuse is now quite short. Let the AWE BOOM begin.


                    • Doug
                      A SuperTwin(TM) weighs about 100 lbs., with no attempt to make it lighter. For the past decade or so, the small wind turbine design cult has been operating
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 13, 2012
                        A SuperTwin(TM) weighs about 100 lbs., with no attempt to make it lighter. For the past decade or so, the small wind turbine design cult has been operating within what we call the "Heavy Metal" school of wind turbine design. Because we are at a small scale, we can afford a little extra steel.

                        A crane operator from G.E. Wind once told me "In wind energy, the word is beefy, beefy, beefy".

                        The idea is similar to "Little red Riding Hood": Build your "house" out of bricks if you want it to survive, or for a wind turbine, use a lot of steel, and make everything a couple sizes beefier and heavier than you think is needed.

                        I have ways I can make generators, driveshafts, and support structures a lot lighter. Sometimes that can be good but of course you have to be careful. Any component might seem OK for a few weeks, months or even a year, and still fail.


                        --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Have at the Berlin flight field next year:
                        > Towered turbine weighing 2 tonnes in all parts, including anchoring,
                        > tower, generator, and blades, etc. Near the towered turbine have 2
                        > tonnes of AWES flying and generating electricity. Have a huge meter
                        > showing the contest between the same-weighted systems;show the
                        > electricity being made side by side. Let the meter data be live castedon
                        > YouTube; notify all newspapers around the world. Have the FAI and other
                        > special bodies certify the contest.
                        > OldNew.... let the revolution begin in Berlin.
                        > Or some other mass totals. What is the total mass of a Selsam
                        > SuperTwin(TM)?
                        >
                      • Pierre BENHAIEM
                        ... And the measured power of (8 ft diameter X 2) SuperTwin seems to be 1000 W at 26 mph .For making a true comparaison SuperTwin should be made with two
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 14, 2012

                           

                           

                          > Here are Paul's results testing a market-leading Bergey at an 8-foot diameter:
                          > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html

                           

                          On Paul Gipe's website:"the rated power of Bergey Windpower's 850 is 850 watts at 28 mph".
                          And the measured power of (8 ft diameter X 2) SuperTwin seems to be 1000 W at 26 mph .

                          For making a true comparaison SuperTwin should be made with two rotors from Bergey Windpower's 850.Or making a comparison of Twin and a single rotor from Twin.

                           

                          >You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress. I don;t see why. 

                           

                          Yourself mention blades from Bergey and SuperTwin are not the same.Precise testing will allow to see what is won with Superturbine' configuration,what size should be it,what angle,how many rotors,how much of lift,for what use...

                           

                           

                          PierreB 

                           

                           



                           

                          > Message du 11/10/12 16:42
                          > De : "Doug"
                          > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                          > Copie à :
                          > Objet : [AWES] Re: pumping  AWE - (my dog gets up)
                          >
                          >  

                          > In answer to your statement below, Paul Gipe tested a SuperTurbine(R) at his test site for a year. That does not indicate he was thinking "no further revolution in wind energy is possible". To the contrary, Paul would not drive out to his site, help put up a turbine, and run it for a year, taking data, and publish the results, then write a few pages about it in his bestselling book, with photos, if he had a closed mind. Nope, it means he has a very OPEN mind to improvements that CAN be run for a year due to someone working out the details, and creating a reliable machine, before asking the world's biggest wind guru to try the new idea and declare one a genius.
                          >
                          > Here are Paul's results testing a SuperTwin(TM) at 8 feet diameter:
                          > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html
                          >
                          > Here are Paul's results testing a market-leading Bergey at an 8-foot diameter:
                          > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html
                          >
                          > Note the SuperTwin(TM) using blades made from 2x4's from Home Depot outperformed the in-production Bergey with NREL airfoils.
                          >
                          > Declaring Paul as "poor guy" saying he wasted half his life, and imagining that he and the rest of the wind energy world recognizes your work as superseding their history of powering millions of houses is quite delusional. I mean really delusional. I think you might be getting JUST a little ahead of yourself...
                          >
                          > Saw AWE coming? Saw a waste of more millions of dollars as more newbies re-create thousand-year-old failures under the guise that they are trying something new? What di you want him to do, start promoting Magenn like the rest of the idiots? And what else can you call someone promoting a Magenn? Hey Dave I hate to break it to you but AWE is not here yet. I agree that it has huge potential. If anyone agrees, it is me going back decades. But potential is not the same as mastering it or even utilizing it. Nobody has really utilized airborne wind energy for generating electricity in the broader sense yet. Only as a brief demo, not for actual use. Moreover there is nothing on the horizon. You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress. I don;t see why. I don't see a problem with the concept of their flying propeller array. Then you have the vast majority of AWE ideas that are characteristic of not comprehending really anything about wind, about energy, or business, or anything else, let alone inculcating a new industry.
                          >
                          > Do you understand why Paul Gipe would not even talk to you or entertain your nonsense for a single second? Why the first thing he said to you was "Seeya!"? Been there doen that. I'm sure Paul could easily spend every waking hour entertaining the fantasies of thousands of "Why Won't You Listen To ME" newbies, all spouting the same old tired nonsense of citing piston engines, the Wright Brothers, and promoting reciprocating cycles etc.
                          >
                          > While we have heard a LOT of nonsense in the field of wind energy over the years, I think your Bose Einstein wobblers take the cake as perhaps the most irrelevant and misguided "I'm a genius - wheee!" thinking we have ever seen in windnenergy - as chicks like to say when they are being sarcastic "good luck with that"....
                          >
                          > Meanwhile, the idea of a crankshaft is not lost on me - sure I can see why it seems promising. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. Whether it will form an economical wind energy solution waits to be seen (again). It has never worked out on the ground but maybe it will be different in the air. So go ahead and try it. I guess you would have to make a kite that went up then down automatically, then make a crankshaft, mate it with the right gearbox, the right generator, a proper inverter, maybe a way to smooth out the intermittent power, then connect it all together - oh well, too hard - nevermind.
                          >
                          > Of course you could always just throw away everything but the kite that goes up then down and connect it to a well, but a task that simple and stark only serves to illuminate the lack of ability/willingness/focus to get any system working no matter how simple.
                          >
                          > If you ever want to get a steady 1 kW in about a 20 mph wind, no questions asked, try carving a 2x4 wall stud into a windmill rotor. Maybe you could apply for a grant for $3 to buy the materials. The weight will be maybe 3 lbs. Rotation will be steady-state, able to spin a generator fast. It will last for many years.
                          >
                          > I'm not sure how much crankshaft, gearbox, computer, generator,and kite you might need to generate that same steady-state 1 kW, but what we've seen over the years is the newbie's machines often weigh several TONS and cannot match the output of the cheapest off-the-shelf turbines with plastic blades.
                          >
                          > But hey, I'd love to see it - I could see some very interesting machines emerging. But I doubt if we will see it. I think it will all be talk, and that's it. I think people have an inner sense of whether they are wasting their time and nobody will ever build one.
                          >
                          > But it would be very fun to see.
                          > :)
                          >
                          > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos wrote: > We contacted Gipe recently in a small AWE group. He insists he is not an engineer who can properly settle tough technical questions. It wasn't even him who first spotted the funky backyard "fantasy turbine" fad, some German wind super-engineer did. Gipe did enjoy taking the top public lead over the decades in claiming no further revolution in wind energy was possible!*�Poor guy spent half his life promoting conventional wind and never once saw AWE coming. Who else you got for us to learn from?
                          > >
                          > > daveS
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > * Presumably including Superturbine (R) claims.
                          > >
                          >
                          >

                        • Doug
                          I mentioned Gipe s measurement of my turbine in response to Dave S. statement that Paul Gipe had a closed mind. I was pointing out that Paul went to a lot of
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 15, 2012
                            I mentioned Gipe's measurement of my turbine in response to Dave S. statement that Paul Gipe had a closed mind. I was pointing out that Paul went to a lot of trouble to measure the output of a reliable prototype that was an unheard-of configuration. That proves Paul did NOT have a closed mind. There is a difference between having a closed mind, and not wanting to waste one's time with idiots. Once again I had to spend my day proving that Dave S. daily attack on me was false information.

                            Now I will refute your point: The Paul Gipe test was NOT a scientific test to compare a Bergey to my SuperTwin(TM). It just HAPPENED that Paul had also tested a Bergey of the same diameter, same voltage, on the same tower.

                            For scientific proof of SuperTurbine(R) please see the following PDF from the California Energy Commission where SupoerTurbine had 6 times the output of a Whisper H-40 (Now called Whisper 100) using seven Whisper H-40 rotors.

                            http://www.energy.ca.gov/2007publications/CEC-500-2007-111/CEC-500-2007-111.PDF






                            --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Here are Paul's results testing a market-leading Bergey at an 8-foot diameter:
                            > > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html On Paul Gipe's website:"the rated power of Bergey Windpower's 850 is 850 watts at 28 mph".
                            > And the measured power of (8 ft diameter X 2) SuperTwin seems to be 1000 W at 26 mph .For making a true comparaison SuperTwin should be made with two rotors from Bergey Windpower's 850.Or making a comparison of Twin and a single rotor from Twin. >You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress. I don;t see why. Yourself mention blades from Bergey and SuperTwin are not the same.Precise testing will allow to see what is won with Superturbine' configuration,what size should be it,what angle,how many rotors,how much of lift,for what use... PierreB
                            >
                            > > Message du 11/10/12 16:42
                            > > De : "Doug"
                            > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Copie à :
                            > > Objet : [AWES] Re: pumping AWE - (my dog gets up)
                            > >
                            > > > In answer to your statement below, Paul Gipe tested a SuperTurbine(R) at his test site for a year. That does not indicate he was thinking "no further revolution in wind energy is possible". To the contrary, Paul would not drive out to his site, help put up a turbine, and run it for a year, taking data, and publish the results, then write a few pages about it in his bestselling book, with photos, if he had a closed mind. Nope, it means he has a very OPEN mind to improvements that CAN be run for a year due to someone working out the details, and creating a reliable machine, before asking the world's biggest wind guru to try the new idea and declare one a genius.
                            > >
                            > > Here are Paul's results testing a SuperTwin(TM) at 8 feet diameter:
                            > > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html
                            > >
                            > > Here are Paul's results testing a market-leading Bergey at an 8-foot diameter:
                            > > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html
                            > >
                            > > Note the SuperTwin(TM) using blades made from 2x4's from Home Depot outperformed the in-production Bergey with NREL airfoils.
                            > >
                            > > Declaring Paul as "poor guy" saying he wasted half his life, and imagining that he and the rest of the wind energy world recognizes your work as superseding their history of powering millions of houses is quite delusional. I mean really delusional. I think you might be getting JUST a little ahead of yourself...
                            > >
                            > > Saw AWE coming? Saw a waste of more millions of dollars as more newbies re-create thousand-year-old failures under the guise that they are trying something new? What di you want him to do, start promoting Magenn like the rest of the idiots? And what else can you call someone promoting a Magenn? Hey Dave I hate to break it to you but AWE is not here yet. I agree that it has huge potential. If anyone agrees, it is me going back decades. But potential is not the same as mastering it or even utilizing it. Nobody has really utilized airborne wind energy for generating electricity in the broader sense yet. Only as a brief demo, not for actual use. Moreover there is nothing on the horizon. You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress. I don;t see why. I don't see a problem with the concept of their flying propeller array. Then you have the vast majority of AWE ideas that are characteristic of not comprehending really anything about wind, about energy, or business, or anything else, let alone inculcating a new industry.
                            > >
                            > > Do you understand why Paul Gipe would not even talk to you or entertain your nonsense for a single second? Why the first thing he said to you was "Seeya!"? Been there doen that. I'm sure Paul could easily spend every waking hour entertaining the fantasies of thousands of "Why Won't You Listen To ME" newbies, all spouting the same old tired nonsense of citing piston engines, the Wright Brothers, and promoting reciprocating cycles etc.
                            > >
                            > > While we have heard a LOT of nonsense in the field of wind energy over the years, I think your Bose Einstein wobblers take the cake as perhaps the most irrelevant and misguided "I'm a genius - wheee!" thinking we have ever seen in windnenergy - as chicks like to say when they are being sarcastic "good luck with that"....
                            > >
                            > > Meanwhile, the idea of a crankshaft is not lost on me - sure I can see why it seems promising. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. Whether it will form an economical wind energy solution waits to be seen (again). It has never worked out on the ground but maybe it will be different in the air. So go ahead and try it. I guess you would have to make a kite that went up then down automatically, then make a crankshaft, mate it with the right gearbox, the right generator, a proper inverter, maybe a way to smooth out the intermittent power, then connect it all together - oh well, too hard - nevermind.
                            > >
                            > > Of course you could always just throw away everything but the kite that goes up then down and connect it to a well, but a task that simple and stark only serves to illuminate the lack of ability/willingness/focus to get any system working no matter how simple.
                            > >
                            > > If you ever want to get a steady 1 kW in about a 20 mph wind, no questions asked, try carving a 2x4 wall stud into a windmill rotor. Maybe you could apply for a grant for $3 to buy the materials. The weight will be maybe 3 lbs. Rotation will be steady-state, able to spin a generator fast. It will last for many years.
                            > >
                            > > I'm not sure how much crankshaft, gearbox, computer, generator,and kite you might need to generate that same steady-state 1 kW, but what we've seen over the years is the newbie's machines often weigh several TONS and cannot match the output of the cheapest off-the-shelf turbines with plastic blades.
                            > >
                            > > But hey, I'd love to see it - I could see some very interesting machines emerging. But I doubt if we will see it. I think it will all be talk, and that's it. I think people have an inner sense of whether they are wasting their time and nobody will ever build one.
                            > >
                            > > But it would be very fun to see.
                            > > :)
                            > >
                            > > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos wrote: > We contacted Gipe recently in a small AWE group. He insists he is not an engineer who can properly settle tough technical questions. It wasn't even him who first spotted the funky backyard "fantasy turbine" fad, some German wind super-engineer did. Gipe did enjoy taking the top public lead over the decades in claiming no further revolution in wind energy was possible!*�Poor guy spent half his life promoting conventional wind and never once saw AWE coming. Who else you got for us to learn from?
                            > > >
                            > > > daveS
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > * Presumably including Superturbine (R) claims.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • Pierre BENHAIEM
                            Thank you Doug for the information, I had this report in my computer.Indeed the report shows Co-Axial Multi Rotor is a proven technology with high potential of
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 15, 2012


                              Thank you Doug for the information,

                               

                              I had this report in my computer.Indeed the report shows Co-Axial Multi Rotor is a proven technology with high potential of ROI.

                              So your sort of question " You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress" has no answer (?).Note that without this indication it is difficult to know it.So I am trying another explain as newbie,thinking for AWE group (and for wind energy) it is good Selsam's made great business,and that looks possible.

                               

                              This report does not refer to Serpentine US6616402B2 patent but another,US2005/0214117 (the report indicates US9997499 but I do not find it) where the mast holds the 70 ft carbon driveshaft by the middle.Serpentine is the killer of your Co-Axial Multi Rotor.And on your website too many informations dilute the main informations.

                               

                              PierreB 

                              > Message du 15/10/12 15:47
                              > De : "Doug"
                              > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              > Copie à :
                              > Objet : [AWES] Re: pumping  AWE - (my dog gets up)
                              >
                              >  

                              > I mentioned Gipe's measurement of my turbine in response to Dave S. statement that Paul Gipe had a closed mind. I was pointing out that Paul went to a lot of trouble to measure the output of a reliable prototype that was an unheard-of configuration. That proves Paul did NOT have a closed mind. There is a difference between having a closed mind, and not wanting to waste one's time with idiots. Once again I had to spend my day proving that Dave S. daily attack on me was false information.
                              >
                              > Now I will refute your point: The Paul Gipe test was NOT a scientific test to compare a Bergey to my SuperTwin(TM). It just HAPPENED that Paul had also tested a Bergey of the same diameter, same voltage, on the same tower.
                              >
                              > For scientific proof of SuperTurbine(R) please see the following PDF from the California Energy Commission where SupoerTurbine had 6 times the output of a Whisper H-40 (Now called Whisper 100) using seven Whisper H-40 rotors.
                              >
                              > http://www.energy.ca.gov/2007publications/CEC-500-2007-111/CEC-500-2007-111.PDF
                              >
                              > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Here are Paul's results testing a market-leading Bergey at an 8-foot diameter:
                              > > > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html On Paul Gipe's website:"the rated power of Bergey Windpower's 850 is 850 watts at 28 mph".
                              > > And the measured power of (8 ft diameter X 2) SuperTwin seems to be 1000 W at 26 mph .For making a true comparaison SuperTwin should be made with two rotors from Bergey Windpower's 850.Or making a comparison of Twin and a single rotor from Twin. >You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress. I don;t see why. Yourself mention blades from Bergey and SuperTwin are not the same.Precise testing will allow to see what is won with Superturbine' configuration,what size should be it,what angle,how many rotors,how much of lift,for what use... PierreB
                              > >
                              > > > Message du 11/10/12 16:42
                              > > > De : "Doug"
                              > > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Copie à :
                              > > > Objet : [AWES] Re: pumping AWE - (my dog gets up)
                              > > >
                              > > > > In answer to your statement below, Paul Gipe tested a SuperTurbine(R) at his test site for a year. That does not indicate he was thinking "no further revolution in wind energy is possible". To the contrary, Paul would not drive out to his site, help put up a turbine, and run it for a year, taking data, and publish the results, then write a few pages about it in his bestselling book, with photos, if he had a closed mind. Nope, it means he has a very OPEN mind to improvements that CAN be run for a year due to someone working out the details, and creating a reliable machine, before asking the world's biggest wind guru to try the new idea and declare one a genius.
                              > > >
                              > > > Here are Paul's results testing a SuperTwin(TM) at 8 feet diameter:
                              > > > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html
                              > > >
                              > > > Here are Paul's results testing a market-leading Bergey at an 8-foot diameter:
                              > > > http://www.wind-works.org/wulf/DougSelsamsSuperTwinatWulfField.html
                              > > >
                              > > > Note the SuperTwin(TM) using blades made from 2x4's from Home Depot outperformed the in-production Bergey with NREL airfoils.
                              > > >
                              > > > Declaring Paul as "poor guy" saying he wasted half his life, and imagining that he and the rest of the wind energy world recognizes your work as superseding their history of powering millions of houses is quite delusional. I mean really delusional. I think you might be getting JUST a little ahead of yourself...
                              > > >
                              > > > Saw AWE coming? Saw a waste of more millions of dollars as more newbies re-create thousand-year-old failures under the guise that they are trying something new? What di you want him to do, start promoting Magenn like the rest of the idiots? And what else can you call someone promoting a Magenn? Hey Dave I hate to break it to you but AWE is not here yet. I agree that it has huge potential. If anyone agrees, it is me going back decades. But potential is not the same as mastering it or even utilizing it. Nobody has really utilized airborne wind energy for generating electricity in the broader sense yet. Only as a brief demo, not for actual use. Moreover there is nothing on the horizon. You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress. I don;t see why. I don't see a problem with the concept of their flying propeller array. Then you have the vast majority of AWE ideas that are characteristic of not comprehending really anything about wind, about energy, or business, or anything else, let alone inculcating a new industry.
                              > > >
                              > > > Do you understand why Paul Gipe would not even talk to you or entertain your nonsense for a single second? Why the first thing he said to you was "Seeya!"? Been there doen that. I'm sure Paul could easily spend every waking hour entertaining the fantasies of thousands of "Why Won't You Listen To ME" newbies, all spouting the same old tired nonsense of citing piston engines, the Wright Brothers, and promoting reciprocating cycles etc.
                              > > >
                              > > > While we have heard a LOT of nonsense in the field of wind energy over the years, I think your Bose Einstein wobblers take the cake as perhaps the most irrelevant and misguided "I'm a genius - wheee!" thinking we have ever seen in windnenergy - as chicks like to say when they are being sarcastic "good luck with that"....
                              > > >
                              > > > Meanwhile, the idea of a crankshaft is not lost on me - sure I can see why it seems promising. I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. Whether it will form an economical wind energy solution waits to be seen (again). It has never worked out on the ground but maybe it will be different in the air. So go ahead and try it. I guess you would have to make a kite that went up then down automatically, then make a crankshaft, mate it with the right gearbox, the right generator, a proper inverter, maybe a way to smooth out the intermittent power, then connect it all together - oh well, too hard - nevermind.
                              > > >
                              > > > Of course you could always just throw away everything but the kite that goes up then down and connect it to a well, but a task that simple and stark only serves to illuminate the lack of ability/willingness/focus to get any system working no matter how simple.
                              > > >
                              > > > If you ever want to get a steady 1 kW in about a 20 mph wind, no questions asked, try carving a 2x4 wall stud into a windmill rotor. Maybe you could apply for a grant for $3 to buy the materials. The weight will be maybe 3 lbs. Rotation will be steady-state, able to spin a generator fast. It will last for many years.
                              > > >
                              > > > I'm not sure how much crankshaft, gearbox, computer, generator,and kite you might need to generate that same steady-state 1 kW, but what we've seen over the years is the newbie's machines often weigh several TONS and cannot match the output of the cheapest off-the-shelf turbines with plastic blades.
                              > > >
                              > > > But hey, I'd love to see it - I could see some very interesting machines emerging. But I doubt if we will see it. I think it will all be talk, and that's it. I think people have an inner sense of whether they are wasting their time and nobody will ever build one.
                              > > >
                              > > > But it would be very fun to see.
                              > > > :)
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos wrote: > We contacted Gipe recently in a small AWE group. He insists he is not an engineer who can properly settle tough technical questions. It wasn't even him who first spotted the funky backyard "fantasy turbine" fad, some German wind super-engineer did. Gipe did enjoy taking the top public lead over the decades in claiming no further revolution in wind energy was possible!*�Poor guy spent half his life promoting conventional wind and never once saw AWE coming. Who else you got for us to learn from?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > daveS
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > * Presumably including Superturbine (R) claims.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >

                            • harry valentine
                              About 5-years ago, a builder of an open-bladed hydro-kinetic turbine arranged for a test unit to operate at a slight angle to the direction of the water
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 15, 2012
                                About 5-years ago, a builder of an open-bladed hydro-kinetic turbine arranged for a test unit to operate at a slight angle to the direction of the water current .  .  .  . similar angle to Selsam's superturbine .  .  .  .   they actually achieved a very small gain in power output at the same water velocity. 

                                However, none of the underwater turbine developers seem interested so far in developing an underwater superturbine .  .  . . its advantage is multiple turbines driving a single (high-cost) electrical generator.

                                Another interesting hydraulic technology is the hydro-kinetic ferry boat that has its travel path determined by a guide cable .  .  .  it uses underwater sails (steerable keel-rudders) for propulsion .  .  . the concept can be used to pull shore-based electrical generators as the kinetically-driven boat travels laterally to the direction of the water current.


                                Harry


                                To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                From: pierre.benhaiem@...
                                Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:32:41 +0200
                                Subject: re: [AWES] Re: pumping  AWE - (my dog gets up)

                                 


                                Thank you Doug for the information,
                                 
                                I had this report in my computer.Indeed the report shows Co-Axial Multi Rotor is a proven technology with high potential of ROI.
                                So your sort of question " You have groups like SkyWindPower, or me, who have what looks like completely workable concepts but making little progress" has no answer (?).Note that without this indication it is difficult to know it.So I am trying another explain as newbie,thinking for AWE group (and for wind energy) it is good Selsam's made great business,and that looks possible.
                                 
                                This report does not refer to Serpentine US6616402B2 patent but another,US2005/0214117 (the report indicates US9997499 but I do not find it) where the mast holds the 70 ft carbon driveshaft by the middle.Serpentine is the killer of your Co-Axial Multi Rotor.And on your website too many informations dilute the main informations.
                                 
                                PierreB 

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