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Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System

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  • Pierre Benhaiem
    Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System is a mix between AWES and conventional wind turbines.The rotor works also as tangential
    Message 1 of 20 , Aug 30, 2012

      Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System is a mix between AWES and conventional wind turbines.The rotor works also as tangential transmission,allowing generators to be at sea level.So the rotor leans on the station-generators while being maintained by suspentes.And the (lift and drag) strengths working in the direction of tethers the size of rotor has a high potential of scaling up.

      Thanks for your remarks.

      PierreB

      http://wheelwind.com

      http://flygenkite.com

    • Joe Faust
      Question to clarify: Is that the place for the generator? http://www.energykitesystems.net/WheelWind/tangentplace.jpg
      Message 2 of 20 , Aug 30, 2012
        Question to clarify: 

        Is that the place for the generator? 
          Clip take from video.
      • Pierre BENHAIEM
        Yes it is,the floating station-generators is at sea level and is also linked to the single anchor with a cable to assure counter couple. PierreB
        Message 3 of 20 , Aug 30, 2012


          Yes it is,the floating station-generators is at sea level and is also linked to the single anchor with a cable to assure counter couple.

           

          PierreB

           

          http://wheelwind.com

          http://flygenkite.com  



          > Message du 30/08/12 19:38
          > De : "Joe Faust"
          > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          > Copie à :
          > Objet : [AWES] Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
          >
          >  

          > Question to clarify: 


          >
          Is that the place for the generator? 
            Clip take from video.
        • Pierre BENHAIEM
          Yes it is,the floating station-generators is at sea level and is also linked to the single anchor with a cable to assure counter torque allowing the rotation
          Message 4 of 20 , Aug 30, 2012


            Yes it is,the floating station-generators is at sea level and is also linked to the single anchor with a cable to assure counter torque allowing the rotation and transmission of the rotor.

             

            PierreB

             

            http://flygenkite.com

            http://wheelwind.com



            > Message du 30/08/12 19:38
            > De : "Joe Faust"
            > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            > Copie à :
            > Objet : [AWES] Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
            >
            >  

            > Question to clarify: 


            >
            Is that the place for the generator? 
              Clip take from video.
          • dbmurr@ymail.com
            Pierre, This is very exciting design work. I will study your system s structure more, and also revisit Rod Read s similar yet different toroid designs to see
            Message 5 of 20 , Aug 30, 2012
              Pierre,
              This is very exciting design work. I will study your system's structure
              more, and also revisit Rod Read's similar yet different toroid designs
              to see if I'm able to make any constructive comments regarding longevity
              of the apparatus for both your works.

              An idea to help reduce the cost of an anchored system would be to place
              a sea farming sphere on the anchor line. This may help stabilize the
              counter torque action (like a sea drogue), and you could subcontract the
              system's regular inspections to the fish farmers. A hybrid device could
              reduce risk factors & keep both ventures more profitable.

              I've attached two youtube links about fish farming in spherical (or the
              like) mesh volumes.
              Regards,
              DaveB Murray

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUwYV3AsS-c&feature=em-share_video_user

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OLxxM64KY&feature=em-share_video_user


              --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM
              <pierre.benhaiem@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Yes it is,the floating station-generators is at sea level and is also
              linked to the single anchor with a cable to assure counter torque
              allowing the rotation and transmission of the rotor. PierreB
              http://flygenkite.comhttp://wheelwind.com
              >
              >
              >
              > > Message du 30/08/12 19:38
              > > De : "Joe Faust"
              > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              > > Copie à :
              > > Objet : [AWES] Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
              > >
              > > > Question to clarify:
              > >Is that the place for the generator?
              http://www.energykitesystems.net/WheelWind/tangentplace.jpg Clip take
              from video.
              >
            • roderickjosephread
              I hadn t seen those before thanks DBM. Using.... A mix of one of those spheres, bouyancy control, and an elevated top handrail from a standard ring style fish
              Message 6 of 20 , Aug 31, 2012
                I hadn't seen those before thanks DBM.
                Using....
                A mix of one of those spheres, bouyancy control, and an elevated top handrail from a standard ring style fish farm,
                you could have...
                A height controlled omnidirectional tilting platform for driving cariages around on the rail...
                A bit like my http://youtu.be/GYVBevi2Sjg  but so much better.

              • Pierre Benhaiem
                DaveB, Thank you for the compliment.As DougS indicates on an old post the device able to be a link between wind turbine and rotary aircraft is like-autogiro.At
                Message 7 of 20 , Aug 31, 2012


                  DaveB,

                  Thank you for the compliment.As DougS indicates on an old post the device able to be a link between wind turbine and rotary aircraft is like-autogiro.At a good  wind speeds (5-7 m/s) for production, autogiro' lift is not enough for a complete flight.With launching generators as motors as soon as the rotor has an enough incidence,lift and drag easily maintain the rotor being also maintened by its own station-generators etc.according to a chain of forces allowing a lighter structure for a giant turbine with generators at sea level.

                  This year I will realize a prototype or prove of concept.

                  Good idea for the sphere.

                  PierreB

                  http://flygenkite.com

                  http://wheelwind.com

                   

                   

                    

                  --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "dbmurr@..." <dbmurr@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Pierre,
                  > This is very exciting design work. I will study your system's structure
                  > more, and also revisit Rod Read's similar yet different toroid designs
                  > to see if I'm able to make any constructive comments regarding longevity
                  > of the apparatus for both your works.
                  >
                  > An idea to help reduce the cost of an anchored system would be to place
                  > a sea farming sphere on the anchor line. This may help stabilize the
                  > counter torque action (like a sea drogue), and you could subcontract the
                  > system's regular inspections to the fish farmers. A hybrid device could
                  > reduce risk factors & keep both ventures more profitable.
                  >
                  > I've attached two youtube links about fish farming in spherical (or the
                  > like) mesh volumes.
                  > Regards,
                  > DaveB Murray
                  >
                  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUwYV3AsS-c&feature=em-share_video_user
                  >
                  > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5OLxxM64KY&feature=em-share_video_user
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Pierre BENHAIEM
                  > pierre.benhaiem@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yes it is,the floating station-generators is at sea level and is also
                  > linked to the single anchor with a cable to assure counter torque
                  > allowing the rotation and transmission of the rotor. PierreB
                  > http://flygenkite.comhttp://wheelwind.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > Message du 30/08/12 19:38
                  > > > De : "Joe Faust"
                  > > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Copie à :
                  > > > Objet : [AWES] Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
                  > > >
                  > > > > Question to clarify:
                  > > >Is that the place for the generator?
                  > http://www.energykitesystems.net/WheelWind/tangentplace.jpg Clip take
                  > from video.
                  > >
                  >

                • Pierre Benhaiem
                  It seems there is a problem.The rotor-wheel (http://youtu.be/2o4KBW8oqCs ) acting the floating station-generators,takes also a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012

                    It seems there is a problem.The rotor-wheel (http://youtu.be/2o4KBW8oqCs ) acting  the  floating station-generators,takes also a counter torque on the side due to braking effect of generators.

                    I look after a light solution.

                    Thanks,

                    PierreB

                    http://wheelwind.com

                  • Pierre BENHAIEM
                    It seems there is a problem.The rotor-wheel (http://youtu.be/2o4KBW8oqCs ) acting the floating station-generators,takes also a counter torque and goes to the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012


                      It seems there is a problem.The rotor-wheel (http://youtu.be/2o4KBW8oqCs ) acting  the  floating station-generators,takes also a counter torque and goes to the side due to braking effect of generators.Light solutions?Second temporary vertical anchoring of station? 

                       

                      PierreB

                       

                      http://wheelwind.com





                      > Message du 06/09/12 09:16
                      > De : "Pierre Benhaiem"
                      > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                      > Copie à :
                      > Objet : [AWES] Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
                      >
                      >  

                      >

                      > It seems there is a problem.The rotor-wheel (http://youtu.be/2o4KBW8oqCs ) acting  the  floating station-generators,takes also a counter torque on the side due to braking effect of generators.

                      > I look after a light solution.

                      > Thanks,

                      > PierreB

                      > http://wheelwind.com

                    • Bob Stuart
                      I assumed that the forces would balance with the generator displaced 10 to 20 degrees off downwind of the anchor. If necessary, another kite could be flown to
                      Message 10 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
                        I assumed that the forces would balance with the generator displaced 10 to 20 degrees off downwind of the anchor.  If necessary, another kite could be flown to one side, to provide a reaction force.

                        Bob Stuart

                        On 6-Sep-12, at 1:16 AM, Pierre Benhaiem wrote:


                        It seems there is a problem.The rotor-wheel (http://youtu.be/2o4KBW8oqCs ) acting  the  floating station-generators,takes also a counter torque on the side due to braking effect of generators.

                        I look after a light solution.

                        Thanks,

                        PierreB

                        http://wheelwind.com



                      • roderickjosephread
                        you could actively adjust the tether tensions on each side of the wheel by offsetting the tether rail... e.g. Run the tether attachment points around on an
                        Message 11 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
                          you could actively adjust the tether tensions on each side of the wheel
                          by offsetting the tether rail...
                          e.g.
                          Run the tether attachment points around on an offset rail on the
                          floating tether...
                        • roderickjosephread
                          Also like Bob said... use a lifting kite / kytoon to offset the wheel from higher and downwind... a further advantage of this would be a assisted launch.
                          Message 12 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
                            Also like Bob said...
                            use a lifting kite / kytoon to offset the wheel from higher and downwind...
                            a further advantage of this would be a assisted launch.
                          • Pierre BENHAIEM
                            Thank you Rod,thank you Bob, For the moment I have not made trials,but someone has done the (certainly pertinent,torus directly acting wheels of generators)
                            Message 13 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012


                              Thank you Rod,thank you Bob,

                               

                              For the moment I have not made trials,but someone has done the (certainly pertinent,torus directly acting wheels of generators) remark I submit now to AWE experts.In fact the station-generators is like ball bearing as ring surrounding (not completely because of blade passage) the section of rolling torus.

                               

                              By simplification the station is like a pulley acting the torus rolling on.

                               

                              Suspentes (tethers) link the torus to the anchoring via the mast and the mast cable (same chain of force).The cable of the station obliquely links said station to the same anchoring.

                               

                              Among solutions I receive a second contra-rotating rotor linking a second station providing counter torque.But this solution is too heavy.Another solution was supplementary anchors,but also it is a heavy solution,morever forbidding orientation according wind directions.

                               

                              In fact I have not even sure it is a problem since wind force can be (?) enough to prevent the torus rolling on the side;beside an angular shape of station could be enough (???) to prevent the same by working as drift.

                               

                              So I am studying your solutions,and maybe others.

                               

                              PierreB 



                              > Message du 06/09/12 14:26
                              > De : "roderickjosephread"
                              > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                              > Copie à :
                              > Objet : Re: [AWES] Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
                              >
                              >  

                              > you could actively adjust the tether tensions on each side of the wheel
                              > by offsetting the tether rail...
                              > e.g.
                              > Run the tether attachment points around on an offset rail on the
                              > floating tether...
                              >
                              >

                            • Pierre BENHAIEM
                              By simplification the station is like a pulley acting the torus rolling on. More simple and correct:the torus rolls (runs) on the pulley acting generator.
                              Message 14 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012

                                "By simplification the station is like a pulley acting the torus rolling on."

                                 

                                More simple and correct:the torus rolls (runs) on the pulley acting generator.

                                 

                                PierreB




                                > Message du 06/09/12 15:58
                                > De : "Pierre BENHAIEM"
                                > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                > Copie à :
                                > Objet : Re: [AWES] Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
                                >
                                >  

                                >

                                >
                                > Thank you Rod,thank you Bob,

                                >  

                                > For the moment I have not made trials,but someone has done the (certainly pertinent,torus directly acting wheels of generators) remark I submit now to AWE experts.In fact the station-generators is like ball bearing as ring surrounding (not completely because of blade passage) the section of rolling torus.

                                >  

                                > By simplification the station is like a pulley acting the torus rolling on.

                                >  

                                > Suspentes (tethers) link the torus to the anchoring via the mast and the mast cable (same chain of force).The cable of the station obliquely links said station to the same anchoring.

                                >  

                                > Among solutions I receive a second contra-rotating rotor linking a second station providing counter torque.But this solution is too heavy.Another solution was supplementary anchors,but also it is a heavy solution,morever forbidding orientation according wind directions.

                                >  

                                > In fact I have not even sure it is a problem since wind force can be (?) enough to prevent the torus rolling on the side;beside an angular shape of station could be enough (???) to prevent the same by working as drift.

                                >  

                                > So I am studying your solutions,and maybe others.

                                >  

                                > PierreB 
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                > Message du 06/09/12 14:26
                                > > De : "roderickjosephread"
                                > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                > > Copie à :
                                > > Objet : Re: [AWES] Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
                                > >
                                > >  

                                > > you could actively adjust the tether tensions on each side of the wheel
                                > > by offsetting the tether rail...
                                > > e.g.
                                > > Run the tether attachment points around on an offset rail on the
                                > > floating tether...
                                > >
                                > >

                              • Doug
                                I d build a small model to power your house. You could speculate all day, every day, how it should work, but only building one and running it will tell how
                                Message 15 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
                                  I'd build a small model to power your house. You could speculate all day, every day, how it "should" work, but only building one and running it will tell how it "does" work. Make sure you have a plan for overspeed protection or it will be ripped apart when the wind gets strong.
                                  :)

                                  --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "roderickjosephread" <rod.read@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Also like Bob said...
                                  > use a lifting kite / kytoon to offset the wheel from higher and downwind...
                                  > a further advantage of this would be a assisted launch.
                                  >
                                • Pierre BENHAIEM
                                  I d build a small model to power your house. It is the solution to see if it works but it is not so easy (and even impossible) if the concept is not correct
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012

                                    "I'd build a small model to power your house." It is the solution to see if it works but it is not so easy (and even impossible) if the concept is not correct before putting generator.So for the moment I will try with a wheel of bicycle,appropriate blades inside.I put tethers on the wheel I hold with one hand.I put a rolling ring (surrounding the wheel) on the ground where a tether goes to my other hand.

                                     

                                    If the wheel stays downwind by acting the ring,it is good (at least for the moment).If the wheel turns arround me with the "ground station",it is bad.After two possibilities:the solution is light,I pursue.The solution is like a device + a device + a device etc.I stop it.

                                     

                                    I go tomorrow to Dieppe Festival and I can present only kite and turbine (FlygenKite) or both this and ASWES (WheelWind) but with doubts.

                                     

                                    PierreB




                                    > Message du 06/09/12 16:04
                                    > De : "Doug"
                                    > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Copie à :
                                    > Objet : [AWES] Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
                                    >
                                    >  

                                    > I'd build a small model to power your house. You could speculate all day, every day, how it "should" work, but only building one and running it will tell how it "does" work. Make sure you have a plan for overspeed protection or it will be ripped apart when the wind gets strong.
                                    > :)
                                    >
                                    > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "roderickjosephread" wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Also like Bob said...
                                    > > use a lifting kite / kytoon to offset the wheel from higher and downwind...
                                    > > a further advantage of this would be a assisted launch.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >

                                  • Joe Faust
                                    http://energykitesystems.net/WheelWind/WheelWindCRtieDoublesOneAnchor.jp g
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012
                                    • Pierre BENHAIEM
                                      Fine! PierreB ... Fine! PierreB
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Sep 6, 2012

                                        Fine!

                                         

                                        PierreB




                                        > Message du 06/09/12 17:55
                                        > De : "Joe Faust"
                                        > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Copie à :
                                        > Objet : [AWES] Re: Airborne Seaborne Wind Energy System
                                        >
                                        >  
                                      • Pierre Benhaiem
                                        Thank you and congratulations Joe, This way seems to be the solution for balancing the system (the cable between the respective two floating stations takes
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Sep 20, 2012

                                          Thank you and congratulations Joe,

                                          This way seems to be the solution for balancing the system  (the cable between the respective two floating stations takes forces from both two wheels) without losses in global swept area it would be made with a double counter-rotating rotors with needed ring to fix both suspentes and rotors.

                                          PierreB

                                          http://wheelwind.com


                                          --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > http://energykitesystems.net/WheelWind/WheelWindCRtieDoublesOneAnchor.jp\
                                          > g
                                          > <http://energykitesystems.net/WheelWind/WheelWindCRtieDoublesOneAnchor.j\
                                          > pg>
                                          >

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