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Re: [AWES] Re: FAA proposed AWE inclusion policy available for comment

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  • dave santos
    Doug,   The FAA temporary AWE policies cannot bother me in the way they do you. They are a nice temporary KiteLab commercial advantage. I have done five
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 15, 2011
      Doug,
       
      The FAA temporary AWE policies cannot bother me in the way they do you. They are a nice temporary KiteLab commercial advantage. I have done five years of nice high-flying and spread-anchor kite tests before these rules, so i have done my homework and can relax.
       
      Note that i am affiliated with the World Kite Museum here where i live (no coincidence), where historic kite arches and trains are collected and studied and new versions developed and flown at regular events like the Washington State International Kite Festival (WSIKF). I have been trained in multi-kite formations, especially arches and trains by the masters, like Ray Bethel, Chuck Blevins, Two-Kite Sam, Jim Patton, Iqbal Hussein, Ed Jensen, and many others. Kay Buesing, the museum director/founder personally hosts Kite Train and Arch Day (a unique decades old event) and is the world authority (i work under her as a volunteer kite curator and was cataloging a Bill Gobel kite train just yesterday). WSIKF is a week long NOTAM shielded event in remote airspace. Flyers are allowed to fly vast numbers of multikites well over a thousand feet high, with approval of AKA on-site safety monitors. Many standing world kite records were/are made right here.
       
      There are many allowable loopholes in the temporary regs. The major one is not to fly FEGs/WECSs, so as to stay within hobby regulations. Current members of the AKA even have a million in liability insurance. KiteLab Ilwaco has endless experiments to conduct that relate to the pilot/lifter functions and other operational methods. The professional ability to engineer from scale prototype data means the 200ft ceiling is plenty for any experiment banned higher up.
       
      I am in active collaboration with the FAA on Kite Energy for over three years now (the guy who ratted out Makani apparent airspace violations on Maui based on videogrammetry done on their TED talk promo vid). Some new policies come directly from our circle. Makani/Joby have also been trying to influence the FAA, but not as aviators, and some of the stupid details in the temp regs seem to have their impractical hallmark (like how redundant tethers are somehow less safe?). But no matter, these are temporary restrictions, and logic will prevail in airspace. I grew up in aviation, so the staus quo is like mother's milk.
       
      The reason to remind you about aviation safety in what seems like an insulting tone is just the same as when you fly an airline and the flight attendants show you, the great Doug Selsam, how the seatbelt works. Foam at the mouth back at them, and you may be frog-marched off the plane by TSA, but on this open forum there is little harm done. Be safe and have a nice day sir, ;*)
       
      daveS
       
      PS Anybody who would like to train in advanced multi-kite techniques, please note the KiteLab Kite Pilot school teaches all aspects. Over a dozen serious AWE developers have attended, from as far away as EU, with a Nigerian delegation planned soon. The latest evolution of 3D aerial latticework is underway right now; come help pioneer the historic advent of  new"kite cloud" methods.

       
        
    • Doug
      Dave S. All that wonderful experience is all the more reason for concern of incongruity, that you have yet to produce a decent AWE product or demo. Meanwhile,
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 16, 2011
        Dave S.
        All that wonderful experience is all the more reason for concern of incongruity, that you have yet to produce a decent AWE product or demo. Meanwhile, if you are spending your time "ratting out" those who are trying hard, and think restrictive rules weigh in your favor, by bringing others down to your level of inaction, that is all really unproductive. Parties at all levels do not seem to appreciate the taunts and meddling. Your assertions that whatever popped into your head on any given week is "the new final answer" are laughable. But the "clown" humor is wearing thin. Seems to me the best thing you could do to help AWE would be to take a vacation.
        :)
        Doug S.

        --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
        >
        > Doug,
        > �
        > The FAA�temporary AWE policies�cannot bother me�in the way they do you. They are a nice temporary KiteLab commercial advantage. I have done five years of nice high-flying and spread-anchor kite�tests before these rules, so i have done my homework and can relax.
        > �
        > Note that i am affiliated with the World Kite Museum here where i live (no coincidence), where historic kite arches and trains are collected and studied�and new versions developed and flown at regular events like the Washington State International Kite Festival (WSIKF). I have been trained in multi-kite formations, especially�arches and trains by the masters, like Ray Bethel, Chuck Blevins, Two-Kite Sam, Jim Patton, Iqbal Hussein, Ed Jensen, and many others. Kay Buesing, the museum director/founder personally hosts Kite Train and Arch Day (a unique decades old event)�and is the world authority�(i work under her as a volunteer kite curator and was cataloging a Bill Gobel kite train just yesterday). WSIKF is a week long NOTAM shielded event in remote airspace. Flyers are allowed to fly vast numbers of multikites�well over a thousand feet high, with approval of AKA on-site safety monitors. Many standing world kite records were/are made right here.
        > �
        > There are many allowable loopholes in the temporary regs. The major one is not to fly FEGs/WECSs, so as to stay within hobby regulations. Current members of the AKA even have a million in liability insurance. KiteLab Ilwaco has endless experiments to conduct that relate to the pilot/lifter functions and other operational methods. The professional ability to engineer�from scale prototype data�means the 200ft ceiling is plenty for any experiment banned higher up.
        > �
        > I am in active collaboration with the FAA on Kite Energy for over three years now (the guy who ratted out Makani apparent airspace�violations on Maui based on videogrammetry done on their TED talk promo vid). Some new policies come directly from our circle. Makani/Joby have also been trying to influence the FAA, but not as aviators, and some of the stupid details in the temp regs seem to have their�impractical hallmark�(like how redundant tethers are somehow less safe?). But no matter, these are temporary restrictions, and logic will prevail in airspace. I grew up in aviation, so the staus quo is like mother's milk.
        > �
        > The reason to remind you about aviation safety in what seems like an insulting tone is just the same as when you fly an airline and the flight attendants�show you, the great Doug Selsam,�how the seatbelt works. Foam at the mouth�back at them, and you�may be frog-marched off the plane by TSA, but on this open forum there is�little harm done. Be safe and have a nice day sir, ;*)
        > �
        > daveS
        > �
        > PS Anybody who would like to train in advanced multi-kite techniques, please note the KiteLab�Kite Pilot�school teaches all aspects. Over a dozen�serious AWE developers have attended, from as far away as EU, with a Nigerian delegation planned soon. The latest evolution of 3D aerial latticework is underway right now; come help pioneer the historic advent of� new"kite cloud" methods.
        >
      • Joe Faust
        Doug, I am not sure how you arrive at your perspective; but the glass is partially full here. The yet-to-be-done calls us all forward. The
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 16, 2011

          Doug, I am not sure how you arrive at your perspective; but the glass is partially full here. The yet-to-be-done calls us all forward.

          The http://KiteLabGroup.com is a tip of the iceberg of some product, demo, and experimenting history by Dave Santos.

          Also, the freely shared-published 700 pages of drawings has yet to be AWE-community-wide digested and disccussed. HERE  http://www.drachen.org/collections/dave-santos-journal   

          Another unpublished 800 pages of drawings-notes are teasing.

          In AWE SuperStore, first AWES product was by Dave Santos. People have been able to purchase product from him.

          Though the CoolIP  has been fully open to all comers for posting essay, report, tech share, most yet is from Dave Santos.

          He deserves a vacation, but non-stop daily for over many years now, he has forwarded AWE RAD on many fronts.  My guess is that he knows a special joy when anyone makes a positive step to the AWE skies.  His own working AWES span a wide variety of worked demonstrations over flygen and groundgen realms.

          I'd like to see a collaborative AWES team composed of about 800 persons and funded by a cooperative of nations' governments' departments of energy. Part of the guide group of the working collaborative would include  some 20 persons or so: Please nominate persons for the first flexible guide group: ___________________________________________.

        • dave santos
          Thank You Joe, for your kind words.   Doug is grumpily unaware of  KiteLab Ilwaco s hard work. Even if he was, in his world there is scant value for any
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 16, 2011
            Thank You Joe, for your kind words.
             
            Doug is grumpily unaware of  KiteLab Ilwaco's hard work. Even if he was, in his world there is scant value for any of us creating and testing all kinds of small working AWE protypes purely for science and humanitarian motives, rather than as prematurely marketed products. He seems to find nothing worthwhile in the large AWE community of abstract thinkers (all the "Professor Crackpots"), visionaries, and dreamers. Patiently teach him about state machines one day, and there is no sign of it the next.
             
            His value system glorifies quick commercial success. Patents to him are no-brainer business moves. Sadly, he is not doing too well by these metrics. Mastering kites or aerospace is waste of time to him. Blogging about too much blogging suits him far better. He is not qualified to rat out an AWE safety hazard to the FAA, and he ridicules anyone who is (let preventable fatalities shape public perception). If he has mishaps and safety-critical failure modes in his work, he is not eager to share them (bad for business) so they might be solved by our collective brains (better business). Let him endorse oversold AWE players and concepts that share his seemingly-insurmountable technical challenges; they share the same boat. Let him fume about those who nimblely avoid developmental roadblocks. Its clearly very frustrating to be Doug, and he has our enduring compassion.
             
            The AWE winners will prevail by finding the best designs. Doug would help us (and himself) far better with precise technical critique of the AWE presented. 

             
              
          • Doug
            Dave S. Thanks for fixating on me. One more Doug rant, dedicated to trying to tear me down bit by bit from every direction your poor limited brain can think
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 17, 2011
              Dave S.
              Thanks for fixating on me. One more "Doug" rant, dedicated to trying to tear me down bit by bit from every direction your poor limited brain can think of.
              I've had to ask myself if responding to each of your never-ending taunts is worth my time. I think the answer is "no". I'm going to try to stop responding to you since it is not productive.
              I think you can see that the agencies you worship have also tired of your shizzle. You might notice a pattern here...
              OK I think that is enough - for a lifetime!
              Seeya!
              :)
              Doug Selsam

              ---
            • Doug
              Joe: You ve done a great job, and nobody could ever replace you. If this were a city council meeting, or a county planning commission meeting, you would be the
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 17, 2011
                Joe:
                You've done a great job, and nobody could ever replace you.
                If this were a city council meeting, or a county planning commission meeting, you would be the mayor, or the county supervisor. The dude you're defending would be one of those whacked-out unemployed people who seldom bathe and show up to the meetings to make trouble and waste everyones' time.

                I disagree that there is any reasonable AWE product out there. Anyone can craft a website and offer a promise of some dubious contraption that nobody has ever bought. And anyone can put a photo of a wheelbarrow on the web and claim it's the latest Indycar. So what?

                You should take a clue from the growing list of people who are unwilling to even discuss anything with certain parties. And just posting a lot of crap doesn't change the fact that it's crap. How many proclamations that "thus and such will define the future of AWE" have we suffered through by now - every week the proclamation changes. I don't know about you but I've had lots of years of experience to identify who is a player and who is an obnoxious nutcase in wind energy.

                Also who is a liar: There's no field so full of lies as wind energy - look at the "superior" Honeywell machine - a big joke. How 'bout Aerovironment: no longer promoted after the big lies of economical power production, and the supposed effectiveness of this product unraveled, exactly as the veterans identified at first glance. But of course wind energy veterans are the LAST people the nutcases ever want to have to deal with!

                Liars change their story a lot - it keeps everyone guessing. A lie could be "I understand this art" or a lie could be "This sort of array will define the future of airborne wind energy", then it never does. Why would anyone want to keep listening to what can logically only be a string of lies, since every successive statement contradicts the previous one?

                Wind energy in general brings the nuts out of the woodwork, but AWE TAKES THE CAKE! The less factual and accurate among them seek to endlessly shift the discussion to a personality contest, try to claim they are persecuted, that everyone is against them etc. This has not changed in 10 years, and can quickly become a self-fulfilling prophecy, and I take you back to the city council meeting analogy - nobody wants to deal with "that nutcase" - they just wish he would pipe down, stop interrupting the meeting, stop trying to control the discussion, go away, and find someplace to bathe.

                I'm not sure of what is a good way to say this, but sometimes the company we keep can hurt us. Others associate a group of people with whomever is most vocal among them, most harmful, or even just most obnoxious, on the "birds of a feather flock together" theory. You can see, in real time, it impacting your own credibility and it looks like if you don't see the writing on the wall soon, you could easily end up going from the top dog in AWE to someone whom nobody in AWE will even talk to, simply on the basis of guilt by association.

                Wish things weren't this way, but they've been this way for all 10 years of my involvement with wind energy. I've searched for why wind energy is this way - drawing so many nutcases - and my answer is, it's because the wind is invisible, so for people who know nothing of wind energy, everything is "up for discussion", nothing is "known", there is no baseline of facts to deal with, no history, and basically, no facts.

                Invisible wind - make up any facts you like and who can deny them? Then you add in the fact that the next 2 steps: magnetism and electricity are also both invisible, and you have machines combining 3 invisible forces. Hence the nutcases. If you were talking about a fence, everyone can touch it and see it, so you don't see a lot of emotional nutcase debates about a fence. Fences don't bring 100 nutcases out of the woodwork with new theories of fencebuilding. That's because fences are not invisible, not mysterious.

                Newbies in wind energy always want to throw out the veterans' opinions and substitute their own wishes for facts, but in the end, Mother Nature has the final say. So far she agrees with us veterans, as to who knows, and who is just one more nut!
                :)
                Doug S.

                ---
              • dave santos
                Doug wrote- I think you can see that the agencies you worship have also tired of your shizzle.   Actually Doug, the FAA AWE designated lead invited me in
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 17, 2011
                  Doug wrote-

                  "I think you can see that the agencies you worship have also tired of your shizzle. "
                   
                  Actually Doug, the FAA AWE designated lead invited me in writing to Washington for a "face to face". I have not replied yet, and do not plan a special trip, probably since i don't worship them. You may be right though, with enough shizzle an entire federal agency can be worn down by a little guy. Did NREL and NASA tire of your input? No, never give up!
                   
                  The reason you get rebutted consistently is repeated mistaken assertions that no one has working AWE devices or good ideas and that the entire field is a big joke. You cannot insist on such opinions not being questioned on an AWE R&D forum.
                   
                  We await the wonderful new work you have repeatedly announced the last couple of years, to add to all the other great work emerging,
                   
                  daveS
                    
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