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Constructive dialogue between AWEIA,AWE Forum,EnergyKiteSystems,and ARPA-E and other governmental agencies in the world

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  • Pierre BENHAIEM
    Dear Matt,Dear DaveS,Dear Mark, As French citizen am amazed at Dave Santos s numerous criticisms towards the ARPA-E and towards Makani;I do not share
    Message 1 of 5 , Nov 17, 2011
      Dear Matt,Dear DaveS,Dear Mark,

      As French citizen am amazed at Dave Santos's numerous criticisms towards the ARPA-E and towards Makani;I do not share them.Indeed AWE is an emergent industry,so that a governmental agency made the promotion of AWE through a company is a positive point (few agencies do it in the world).

      But it is only a beginning.By creating EnergyKiteSystems Joe Faust made and pursues a huge work for building the single place for datas in AWE.AWEIA is the association of industrial actors like start-ups,individual players, projects,teams from universities.AWE Forum is... THE forum on AWE.These three entities work so that AWE became an industrial reality.And a first point is an exhaustive search about all possible main conversion schemes (soft and rigid flygen,reel-out/in,lever,etc.) and variants.

      Nor a good application of AWE depends not only of the AWECS itself but also of its environment (policies of aerial rules,choice of the places of implementation...).So a small technological variant can involve in great modifications of the expected results according to the environment.

      ARPA-E could also examine (with funding) other (US) schemes like for example autogyro-like versus reel/out/in like Skymill or versus FEG like SkyWind Power.

      But ARPA-E could also examines a possibility to etablish bridges between other governmental agencies and players:"By Dr. Arun Majumdar In summary, let us take the lead from the President to out-innovate, out-build and out-educate the rest of the world. That is the best course of action for our nation to create a secure future for our children." Thanks to Roderick for the citation.

      It would be an interesting reverse of situation governement agencies work as a sort of gobal rating agency (like Standard & poors) through complete AWE reports with a description of all schemes and their respective utility according to the environment and the applications,that towards a massive promotion of AWE with little cost (main investments for the realization from privates,reports from governmental agencies).

      Economical schemes could be also studied like for example:"An economic plan allows to by-pass the difficult problem of the storage of the occasional energies:the indexation of the price of the electricity according to the weather forecasts:so people can plan to use their washing machine in the reduced rate."

      King regards,

      Pierre Benhaïem
      http://flygenkite.com

       
    • dave santos
      Pierre,   Please understand the criticism of ARPA-E favoring one US company over all others is based on an American ideal of fair-play . Americans do not
      Message 2 of 5 , Nov 17, 2011
        Pierre,
         
        Please understand the criticism of ARPA-E favoring one US company over all others is based on an American ideal of "fair-play". Americans do not always live up to their ideals and that the French do not always agree with or even understand American politics. Try and imagine an outcome where FlygenKite is never able to compete against Makani and goes out of business solely because you never make personal friends with the Google founders and never got an exclusive US taxpayer subsidy. You could be smarter and work harder, but that would not matter, because the winner was predetermined by an inside process controlled by social elites.
         
        In this case all the excluded US companies, in aggregate, are far smarter and do work harder than the lucky kite surfers. Even if ARPA-E had a "balanced portfolio", as top US experts recommend, it would still be Unfair Trade if all the world's AWE ventures where driven out of business by a pattern of US nationalistic ex. Any AWE company in the world that did not have a protectionist government that only serves its national interest would be hard-pressed to compete with the government favored companies. The kites in France might have Google printed on them rather than FlyGenKite only because developers like you could not understand the forces gathered against you.
         
        So go ahead and applaud as a combination of Google and US government decides for you who will "own the sky", when you might have joined with the many small developers and countries for a shared future of cooperative development. Keep clapping as the wonderful community that JoeF has worked so hard to gather is soon blown away by the juggernaut of a US government superpower teamed up with a corporate superpower like Google. Time is short and you could be preparing your WTO complaint instead of cheering.
         
        We still have a small chance to compete on pure merit, as ARPA-E and Makani/Google have stumbled badly in prematurely favoring a high-risk low-TRL concept, but with their deep pockets and powerful connections, they can win over all players anyway; just starve us out. All they really need now is for us to allow them to cakewalk to dominance. I will do my best to prevent this terrible outcome.
         
        If anyone could fully understand these issues, it would be Matt Dunne; its a shame he is not on our side,
         
        daveS
         
        PS These are not at all the views of Robert Lumley ;)

         
      • roderickjosephread
        Get some sleep Dave, before you read the rest of this post. fair-play Right it s Rip into Dave S time. (Morning and sorry big DS it s just so fashionable
        Message 3 of 5 , Nov 17, 2011
          Get some sleep Dave,
          before you read the rest of this post.

          "fair-play" Right it's Rip into Dave S' time. (Morning and sorry big DS it's just so fashionable right now)

          Come on DS Americans aren't all rubbish. tight fisted bankers. yes the dream is a bit skewed to money but We "the group" can all help you get over it.

          Trust your Tech DS. Google didn't write the internet, they developed a key search algorithm early on. You have done the same with kites.

          Geeks are the new social elites you talk of chin up.

          "work harder than the lucky kite surfers." have you tried kite surfing? It's bloody hard work. (have you flown a 12m lei kite surfer whilst riding a unicycle (no crap) I have)

          "Unfair Trade" oh come on., the best trade we have is in communication not dollars. Here's the fair bits ... sharing what you have built after learning from others and comeuppance on being found out.

          "Any AWE company in the world that did not have a protectionist government that only serves its national interest would be hard-pressed to compete with the government favored companies." consider the Telecom infrastructure case. Everyone in the UK is turning against BT and it's many faces. Many small scale companies are starting to thrive.

          Your own good hippie values should tell you to tread easy on others who have commented in this thread.

          If google and the US govt can improve the world by using my kite designs responsibly, that'd be a nice dream come true.


          --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
          >
          > Pierre,
          >  
          > Please understand the criticism of ARPA-E favoring one US company over all others is based on an American ideal of "fair-play". Americans do not always live up to their ideals and that the French do not always agree with or even understand American politics. Try and imagine an outcome where FlygenKite is never able to compete against Makani and goes out of business solely because you never make personal friends with the Google founders and never got an exclusive US taxpayer subsidy. You could be smarter and work harder, but that would not matter, because the winner was predetermined by an inside process controlled by social elites.
          >  
          > In this case all the excluded US companies, in aggregate, are far smarter and do work harder than the lucky kite surfers. Even if ARPA-E had a "balanced portfolio", as top US experts recommend, it would still be Unfair Trade if all the world's AWE ventures where driven out of business by a pattern of US nationalistic ex. Any AWE company in the world that did not have a protectionist government that only serves its national interest would be hard-pressed to compete with the government favored companies. The kites in France might have Google printed on them rather than FlyGenKite only because developers like you could not understand the forces gathered against you.
          >  
          > So go ahead and applaud as a combination of Google and US government decides for you who will "own the sky", when you might have joined with the many small developers and countries for a shared future of cooperative development. Keep clapping as the wonderful community that JoeF has worked so hard to gather is soon blown away by the juggernaut of a US government superpower teamed up with a corporate superpower like Google. Time is short and you could be preparing your WTO complaint instead of cheering.
          >  
          > We still have a small chance to compete on pure merit, as ARPA-E and Makani/Google have stumbled badly in prematurely favoring a high-risk low-TRL concept, but with their deep pockets and powerful connections, they can win over all players anyway; just starve us out. All they really need now is for us to allow them to cakewalk to dominance. I will do my best to prevent this terrible outcome.
          >  
          > If anyone could fully understand these issues, it would be Matt Dunne; its a shame he is not on our side,
          >  
          > daveS
          >  
          > PS These are not at all the views of Robert Lumley ;)
          >
        • Hardensoft International Limited
          I need to lend my voice here to re-emphasize this submission of  DaveS. Here is the summary of all of DaveS battles and I think this deserves the support of
          Message 4 of 5 , Nov 18, 2011
            I need to lend my voice here to re-emphasize this submission of  DaveS.
            Here is the summary of all of DaveS' battles and I think this deserves the support of ALL for it is indeed in the interest of ALL.
            Let everyone call for openness, transparency and fair-play rather than elitist favoritism especially in a new field where quite a number have invested their modest fortunes.
            We can yet COLLABORATE despite the COMPETITION.
            Best regards.
            John Oyebanji
            President protem, Airborne Wind Energy Industry Association (AWEIA International)

            John Adeoye  Oyebanji   B.Sc. MCPN
            Managing Consultant & CEO
            Hardensoft International Limited
            An ICT, Environmental Remediation & Renewable Energy Company

            3rd Floor, 53 St. Finbarr's Road, Akoka-Yaba;
            Lagos. Nigeria.

            ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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            It is confidential, private and intended for only the addressee.

            Should you not be the addressee and receive this e-mail by mistake, kindly notify the sender, and delete this e-mail immediately.

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            --- On Thu, 11/17/11, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:

            From: dave santos <santos137@...>
            Subject: Re: [AWECS] Constructive dialogue between AWEIA,AWE Forum,EnergyKiteSystems,and ARPA-E and other governmental agencies in the world
            To: "AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com" <AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com>, "Matthew.DunneIII@..." <Matthew.DunneIII@...>, "Mark.Hartney@..." <Mark.Hartney@...>
            Cc: "corwin@..." <corwin@...>, "pj@..." <pj@...>
            Date: Thursday, November 17, 2011, 4:47 PM

             

            Pierre,
             
            Please understand the criticism of ARPA-E favoring one US company over all others is based on an American ideal of "fair-play". Americans do not always live up to their ideals and that the French do not always agree with or even understand American politics. Try and imagine an outcome where FlygenKite is never able to compete against Makani and goes out of business solely because you never make personal friends with the Google founders and never got an exclusive US taxpayer subsidy. You could be smarter and work harder, but that would not matter, because the winner was predetermined by an inside process controlled by social elites.
             
            In this case all the excluded US companies, in aggregate, are far smarter and do work harder than the lucky kite surfers. Even if ARPA-E had a "balanced portfolio", as top US experts recommend, it would still be Unfair Trade if all the world's AWE ventures where driven out of business by a pattern of US nationalistic ex. Any AWE company in the world that did not have a protectionist government that only serves its national interest would be hard-pressed to compete with the government favored companies. The kites in France might have Google printed on them rather than FlyGenKite only because developers like you could not understand the forces gathered against you.
             
            So go ahead and applaud as a combination of Google and US government decides for you who will "own the sky", when you might have joined with the many small developers and countries for a shared future of cooperative development. Keep clapping as the wonderful community that JoeF has worked so hard to gather is soon blown away by the juggernaut of a US government superpower teamed up with a corporate superpower like Google. Time is short and you could be preparing your WTO complaint instead of cheering.
             
            We still have a small chance to compete on pure merit, as ARPA-E and Makani/Google have stumbled badly in prematurely favoring a high-risk low-TRL concept, but with their deep pockets and powerful connections, they can win over all players anyway; just starve us out. All they really need now is for us to allow them to cakewalk to dominance. I will do my best to prevent this terrible outcome.
             
            If anyone could fully understand these issues, it would be Matt Dunne; its a shame he is not on our side,
             
            daveS
             
            PS These are not at all the views of Robert Lumley ;)

             
          • Pierre BENHAIEM
            DaveS, One anecdote:un librarian wanted buying Goldberg variations from JS Bach.After reading some articles saying some things like: this version is as good
            Message 5 of 5 , Nov 18, 2011
              DaveS,

              One anecdote:un librarian wanted buying "Goldberg variations" from JS Bach.After reading some articles saying some things like:"this version is as good as Glenn Gould's version",then "this version is by far better than Glenn Gould's version.Which version bought the librarian?the "better" version?No,Gould's version.

              Of course I am not doing a resemblance between Makani and Glenn Gould (who was and is the really better player of Bach's"Goldberg variations),but the numerous posts about or against Makani seems to suggest Makani is the leader in AWE,(and a contrario the players in the list should be the loosers).Nor it is not the case since Makani's products are not marketed.Morever some projects in our list can become winners.

              The point allowing a meeting of all in the list is the necessity (from ARPA-E) of an exhaustive knowledge about different AWE schemes (it is the sense of my precedent message):Joe Faust' request for a direct contact between ARPA-E and
              Stakeholders has a great sense.So let us speak about our projects instead on Makani.

              PierreB,
              http://flygenkite.com



              > Message du 17/11/11 16:47
              > De : "dave santos"
              > A : "AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com" , "Matthew.DunneIII@..." , "Mark.Hartney@..."
              > Copie à : "corwin@..." , "pj@..."
              > Objet : Re: [AWECS] Constructive dialogue between AWEIA,AWE Forum,EnergyKiteSystems,and ARPA-E and other governmental agencies in the world
              >
              >  

              >

              Pierre,

              Please understand the criticism of ARPA-E favoring one US company over all others is based on an American ideal of "fair-play". Americans do not always live up to their ideals and that the French do not always agree with or even understand American politics. Try and imagine an outcome where FlygenKite is never able to compete against Makani and goes out of business solely because you never make personal friends with the Google founders and never got an exclusive US taxpayer subsidy. You could be smarter and work harder, but that would not matter, because the winner was predetermined by an inside process controlled by social elites.

              In this case all the excluded US companies, in aggregate, are far smarter and do work harder than the lucky kite surfers. Even if ARPA-E had a "balanced portfolio", as top US experts recommend, it would still be Unfair Trade if all the world's AWE ventures where driven out of business by a pattern of US nationalistic ex. Any AWE company in the world that did not have a protectionist government that only serves its national interest would be hard-pressed to compete with the government favored companies. The kites in France might have Google printed on them rather than FlyGenKite only because developers like you could not understand the forces gathered against you.

              So go ahead and applaud as a combination of Google and US government decides for you who will "own the sky", when you might have joined with the many small developers and countries for a shared future of cooperative development. Keep clapping as the wonderful community that JoeF has worked so hard to gather is soon blown away by the juggernaut of a US government superpower teamed up with a corporate superpower like Google. Time is short and you could be preparing your WTO complaint instead of cheering.

              We still have a small chance to compete on pure merit, as ARPA-E and Makani/Google have stumbled badly in prematurely favoring a high-risk low-TRL concept, but with their deep pockets and powerful connections, they can win over all players anyway; just starve us out. All they really need now is for us to allow them to cakewalk to dominance. I will do my best to prevent this terrible outcome.

              If anyone could fully understand these issues, it would be Matt Dunne; its a shame he is not on our side,

              daveS

              PS These are not at all the views of Robert Lumley ;)


              >  


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