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"Energy Wing" Trademark Notice

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  • dave santos
    While patents are a terrible expense and hassle and contrary to open-source tech philosophy, trademarks are free and easy defensible IP.
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 15, 2011
      While patents are a terrible expense and hassle and contrary to open-source tech philosophy, trademarks are free and easy defensible IP. KiteLab Group's feral-capitalism strategy includes a family of trademarks which may someday have considerable branding value, as long as pricing and quality are competitive.
       
      "Energy Wing" is hereby reserved by KiteLab Group for wingmill and looping wing AWECS marketing. KiteLab's membrane wingmills continue to evolve nicely since they debuted in 2008 as possibly the first-to-market AWE product.
       
      Feel free to reserve choice trademarks in KiteLab Group's name for our collective use. The Ultra(Kite), (the "ultra" prefix) and SkyHigh are sample reserved trademarks. "AWE" itself is Joe and my linguistic contribution to the public domain, unless some prior usage emerges. 
    • Joe Faust
      Energy Wing™, EnergyWing™ Dave Santos of KiteLab Group has firmed trademark use. Public notice:
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 15, 2011

         Energy Wing™,  EnergyWing™    Dave Santos  of KiteLab Group has firmed trademark use.  Public notice: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/message/4195
      • Doug
        This is one more of many trademarks I ve seen reserved on this list (always by the same person). My I.P. law knowledge may have some holes in it, but I
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 16, 2011
          This is one more of many "trademarks" I've seen "reserved" on this list (always by the same person).
          My I.P. law knowledge may have some holes in it, but I believe to acquire rights to exclude others from using a trademark requires actual use of the trademark, in commerce, in a given geographic area. The proof required is extensive and includes packaging for a specific product, as well as sales of that product, and not just a single token instance contrived in order to force a shown "use", but an actual product, actually available, actually sold, with the actual trademark actually printed on the packaging.

          Just saying you "reserve" a word, for future possible use as a trademark, on a web chat list, carries no legal weight as far as I am aware. Heck you could do it all day and reserve a million marks, becoming a legend in your own mind, but the effect would be quite limited beyond your own world of fantasy. Also, "just saying" you have solutions to AWE carries no weight if you can't build it and run it, even (especially?) if you keep getting sidetracked into related activities that seem peripherally related to the target, but do not hit the target.
          "Almost" is great in "horseshoes and hand-grenades", but doesn't work out too well in wind energy.
          :)
          Doug S.

          --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Energy Wing�, EnergyWing� Dave Santos of KiteLab Group has
          > firmed trademark use. Public notice:
          > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/message/4195
          > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/AirborneWindEnergy/message/4195>
          >
        • dave santos
          Doug,   As you know, some of us are happy model IP innovators, while others suffer under established norms. Trademarks are quite properly reserved on this
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 16, 2011
            Doug,
             
            As you know, some of us are happy model IP innovators, while others suffer under established norms. Trademarks are quite properly reserved on this list because it is the "public forum of record" for AWE. KiteLab trademarks are in active use by developing AWE ventures. We confidently count on peer respect of our trademarks to avoid confusion and disputes. Such trademarks are well defensible; take my expert paralegal word for it. Design copyright and even artist's moral rights under the Bourne Convention are also potentially defensible basis for some AWE IP.
             
            Grant thinks AWE coolIP, as an alternative to patents, doesn't have a chance faced with bad actors like old-school military-industrialists. Lets eagerly await the actual testing of relentless sharp public ridicule and boycott to inhibit these folks as they are spotted. Militaries probably sooner appropriate square patents than copy "Hippie Ideas". Even old-fashioned curses will vex superstitious pirates, but this would be a last resort.
             
            These methods are far more fun and cheaper than conventional IP, and they best promote the RAD (Rapid Awe Dev) mission,
             
            daveS
          • Robert Copcutt
            My understanding matches Doug s. An important, no critical, first step is to buy the .com domain name. Robert.
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 17, 2011
              My understanding matches Doug's. An important, no critical, first step
              is to buy the .com domain name.

              Robert.


              On Fri, 2011-09-16 at 20:55 +0000, Doug wrote:
              >
              > This is one more of many "trademarks" I've seen "reserved" on this
              > list (always by the same person).
              > My I.P. law knowledge may have some holes in it, but I believe to
              > acquire rights to exclude others from using a trademark requires
              > actual use of the trademark, in commerce, in a given geographic area.
              > The proof required is extensive and includes packaging for a specific
              > product, as well as sales of that product, and not just a single token
              > instance contrived in order to force a shown "use", but an actual
              > product, actually available, actually sold, with the actual trademark
              > actually printed on the packaging.
              >
              > Just saying you "reserve" a word, for future possible use as a
              > trademark, on a web chat list, carries no legal weight as far as I am
              > aware. Heck you could do it all day and reserve a million marks,
              > becoming a legend in your own mind, but the effect would be quite
              > limited beyond your own world of fantasy. Also, "just saying" you have
              > solutions to AWE carries no weight if you can't build it and run it,
              > even (especially?) if you keep getting sidetracked into related
              > activities that seem peripherally related to the target, but do not
              > hit the target.
              > "Almost" is great in "horseshoes and hand-grenades", but doesn't work
              > out too well in wind energy.
              > :)
              > Doug S.
              >
            • Doug
              You can look it up if you want. The trademark rules are well-established. Make up your own rules if you want but be careful how much time you waste. Don t
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 17, 2011
                You can look it up if you want. The trademark rules are well-established. Make up your own rules if you want but be careful how much time you waste. Don't get me wrong: I have no intent to violate anyone's proposed mark. There are a million great names one could use. Most are by far over-rated by whomever they occurred to, and will never be of any consequence to anyone else.

                I can tell you from experience, no amount of blogging, no amount of claiming names ahead of the fact, no amount of designing contests, fast-pitch competitions, trade-shows, conferences, web chats, no amount of any of this stuff really matters, compared to just having one machine that works, reliably and economically.

                Whether you are making power is easy to discern.
                Whether you are still making power a year later is also easy to discern.
                The cost is fairly easy to discern.
                That's all there is to this, unless you want to live in a land of fantasy, based on believing an endless parade of false press-releases, which almost all are.
                :)
                Doug S.


                --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
                >
                > Doug,
                > �
                > As you know, some of us are�happy model IP innovators,�while others�suffer under�established norms. Trademarks are quite properly reserved on this list because it is the "public forum of record" for AWE. KiteLab trademarks are in active use by developing AWE�ventures. We confidently�count on peer respect of our trademarks to avoid confusion and disputes. Such trademarks are well defensible; take my expert paralegal word for it. Design copyright and even artist's moral rights under the Bourne Convention are also potentially defensible basis for some�AWE IP.
                > �
                > Grant thinks AWE coolIP, as an alternative to patents,�doesn't have a chance faced with bad actors like old-school military-industrialists. Lets eagerly await the actual testing of relentless sharp public ridicule and boycott�to inhibit these folks as they are spotted. Militaries probably sooner appropriate square patents than�copy "Hippie Ideas". Even�old-fashioned curses�will vex�superstitious pirates, but this would be�a last resort.
                > �
                > These methods are far more�fun and cheaper than conventional IP, and they best promote the�RAD (Rapid Awe Dev) mission,
                > �
                > daveS
                >
              • dave santos
                Doug,   Lets not belabor the TM topic, but let events test or IP strategies. Sure, KiteLab Ilwaco s IP shortcuts do not confer the same protection as
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 17, 2011
                  Doug,
                   
                  Lets not belabor the TM topic, but let events test or IP strategies. Sure, KiteLab Ilwaco's IP shortcuts do not confer the same protection as USWindLab's conventional approach, but much time and money is saved up front, boosting core tech competitiveness. The same philosophy goes for slick websites, kissing up to popular media, etc. More time is available for actual inventing and testing.
                   
                  This pattern of unconventional focus predicts why KiteLab has created far more diverse and working AWE demos than USWindLabs. We both produce early small-scale low-power experiments, which is smart. We are not yet rivaling the peak power of current top AWE power producers like SkySails or KiteGen. Its like they may be the dinosaurs, and optimistically, KiteLab is a tiny early mammal and US WindLab is a sort of funky marsupial,
                   
                  Robert,
                   
                  I am unaware of a trademark requirement to register a domain name, but do know that the reverse case, trademark domain squatting, has lost in civil actions. Can you point to the specific law you are citing?
                   
                  daveS
                   
                  PS Below from a top web trademark overview-
                   
                  What is a Trademark-
                   
                  Assuming that a trademark qualifies for protection, rights to a trademark can be acquired in one of two ways: (1) by being the first to use the mark in commerce; or (2) by being the first to register the mark with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office ("PTO").
                  ....
                   
                  What does it mean to register a TM?
                   
                  Although registration with the PTO is not required for a trademark to be protected, registration does confer a number of benefits to the registering party...
                   
                • Dave Lang
                  In the US, if you march through conventional steps to a defendable copyright of a trademark name, you submit an application, which is inexpensive, with no
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 17, 2011
                    Re: [AWECS] Re: "Energy Wing" Trademark Notice
                    In the US, if you march through conventional steps to a defendable copyright of a trademark name, you submit an application, which is inexpensive, with no attorney assistance required (since, unlike the complexity of patent-ideas,  a candidate TM name is easily checked against existing trademarks - easy for one to do obviously before applying). Then this application process starts a clock, and for a certain lapsed time period (a year or so?) you are protected from infringement without demonstration of "commercial usage".

                    Upon expiration of the "protection (ie. business incubation)  period", then you must start to show evidence of "trade usage" (production, sales, etc, etc) in order to maintain your "application date precedence" against attack. While I don't think there are quantitative levels of commercialism that must be exhibited.....it was clear to me that simply (and only) using the name in public (and even having a web site) did not constitute "commercial usage"......rather some kind of commerce was required.

                    I think date precedence can be proven by prior "commercial usage", BUT NOT just employing a term in a non-productive fashion.

                    But the legal implications don't end there! If a TM name starts being used "extensively in public discourse", but not in reference to the actual product you become exposed to potential legal copyright ownership degradation/loss....hence, Xerox had to take significant steps to curb rampant use of the word "Xerox" as a generic reference to document reproduction (for instance, "I have a Xerox machine"...even if it were made by IBM", or,  "get me a Xerox of that", etc). This may be related to the pre-existent prohibition of copyrighting "commonly used terms".

                    Copyright usage doesn't mean a product has to be "cost effective", imaginative, "make-good power", "works", etc.....rather, it must JUST be engaged in commerce (for instance, a web site for a company with NO sales won't qualify).

                    DaveL



                    At 2:57 PM +0100 9/17/11, Robert Copcutt wrote:
                     
                    My understanding matches Doug's. An important, no critical, first step
                    is to buy the .com domain name.

                    Robert.

                    On Fri, 2011-09-16 at 20:55 +0000, Doug wrote:
                    >
                    > This is one more of many "trademarks" I've seen "reserved" on this
                    > list (always by the same person).
                    > My I.P. law knowledge may have some holes in it, but I believe to
                    > acquire rights to exclude others from using a trademark requires
                    > actual use of the trademark, in commerce, in a given geographic area.
                    > The proof required is extensive and includes packaging for a specific
                    > product, as well as sales of that product, and not just a single token
                    > instance contrived in order to force a shown "use", but an actual
                    > product, actually available, actually sold, with the actual trademark
                    > actually printed on the packaging.
                    >
                    > Just saying you "reserve" a word, for future possible use as a
                    > trademark, on a web chat list, carries no legal weight as far as I am
                    > aware. Heck you could do it all day and reserve a million marks,
                    > becoming a legend in your own mind, but the effect would be quite
                    > limited beyond your own world of fantasy. Also, "just saying" you have
                    > solutions to AWE carries no weight if you can't build it and run it,
                    > even (especially?) if you keep getting sidetracked into related
                    > activities that seem peripherally related to the target, but do not
                    > hit the target.
                    > "Almost" is great in "horseshoes and hand-grenades", but doesn't work
                    > out too well in wind energy.
                    > :)
                    > Doug S.
                    >

                  • dave santos
                    DaveL,   Thanks for the additional info. I would rather be water-boarded than fill out a governent form. Even low TM registration fees to me are wildly
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 17, 2011
                      DaveL,
                       
                      Thanks for the additional info. I would rather be water-boarded than fill out a governent form. Even low TM registration fees to me are wildly excessive. My idea of cheap is snagging kites out of trees for science after each Austin kite festival. Capital concession to biz risk can kill or sap a venture by adding to engineering risk ("For want of a nail, a kingdom was lost.").
                       
                      It is true that formally filing a trade mark is a stronger protection, but a clear pattern of commericial usage is the strongest test. KiteLab commercially ships EnergyWing (TM) technology internationally. EnergyWings have been available for about three years now under the Sputnik and FlipWing TMs or generic term- "membrane windmill". The latest 3m WS "signature" version to ship is available for 500USD, plus S&H (future cost will be well under 50 bucks in high production). Larger custom versions are made to order by 2K.
                       
                      Thus is a test of whether an IP honor system in our AWE circles can eliminate shortcomings of the conventional VC model (insert snore),
                       
                      daveS
                       
                       

                       
                    • Dave Lang
                      DaveS, The good news is (as I recall) that the form is stupidly simple :-) (maybe a 1 sheeter). I think the operative word here is commercial usage , as
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 17, 2011
                        Re: [AWECS] Re: "Energy Wing" Trademark Notice
                        DaveS,

                        The good news is (as I recall) that the form is stupidly simple :-) (maybe a 1 sheeter).

                        I think the operative word here is "commercial usage", as opposed to being the first one to ever "employ the word", etc.  Some years ago, I had successfully  "trademark-filed" for the name "iGlobe", but lacking funds and being unsuccessful in attracting capital  to commercially demonstrate its usage, I was forced (by the USPTO) to abandon the claim after the "grace period".....of course, some years later (just recently in fact), the following happened.... http://www.mitsubishielectric.com/news/2011/0601.html

                        At least I felt better realizing it cost Mitsubishi on the order of a $M to pull it off :-)

                        DaveL



                        At 1:56 PM -0700 9/17/11, dave santos wrote:
                         
                        DaveL,
                         
                        Thanks for the additional info. I would rather be water-boarded than fill out a governent form. Even low TM registration fees to me are wildly excessive. My idea of cheap is snagging kites out of trees for science after each Austin kite festival. Capital concession to biz risk can kill or sap a venture by adding to engineering risk ("For want of a nail, a kingdom was lost.").
                         
                        It is true that formally filing a trade mark is a stronger protection, but a clear pattern of commericial usage is the strongest test. KiteLab commercially ships EnergyWing (TM) technology internationally. EnergyWings have been available for about three years now under the Sputnik and FlipWing TMs or generic term- "membrane windmill". The latest 3m WS "signature" version to ship is available for 500USD, plus S&H (future cost will be well under 50 bucks in high production). Larger custom versions are made to order by 2K.
                         
                        Thus is a test of whether an IP honor system in our AWE circles can eliminate shortcomings of the conventional VC model (insert snore),
                         
                        daveS
                         
                         

                         

                      • Doug
                        ... ***Not belaboring, just commenting on your announcement. Your mark is safe with me. :) Sure, KiteLab Ilwaco s IP shortcuts do not confer�the
                        Message 11 of 11 , Sep 18, 2011
                          --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Doug,
                          > �
                          > Lets not belabor the TM topic, ...
                          ***Not belaboring, just commenting on your announcement. Your mark is safe with me. :)

                          Sure, KiteLab Ilwaco's IP shortcuts do not confer�the same�protection as USWindLab's conventional approach, but much time and money is saved up front, boosting core tech competitiveness. The same philosophy goes for�slick websites, kissing up to popular media, etc. More time is available for actual inventing and testing.

                          ***I didn't mean to compare our efforts. Even USWINDLABS is kind of a corny name. I just thought we needed the name "U.S." on some effort that actually was trying new things. I only respond if the media contacts me, and yes, it does take time away from progress, but generates enthusiasm.

                          > �
                          > This�pattern of unconventional focus�predicts�why KiteLab has�created far more diverse and�working AWE demos than USWindLabs.

                          *** I had no idea. Well I've switched from string to rope for my kite, so watch out! :)

                          We both�produce early small-scale low-power�experiments, which is smart. We are not yet rivaling the peak power of current�top AWE power producers like SkySails or KiteGen.

                          ****We produce I.P first. Someone somewhere said we needed new cutting-edge clean energy ideas... Oh I think it was the president. And the one before him. And the one before that. And preceding him too... and the next... for the last 40 years! 40 years of all-talk - we were supposed to all be driving hybrids by the mid 1980's!

                          Yeah if you throw enough money and personnel at something you can get an expensive result, but an expensive result doesn't help that much - this is energy, and the name of the game is "cheap cheap cheap". Expensive energy can be obtained in many ways.

                          Its like they may be the dinosaurs, and optimistically, KiteLab is a�tiny early mammal and US WindLab is a sort of funky marsupial,

                          ****yeah KiteLab is at the stage of living underground and has lost all its photoreceptors and must now evolve new pigments in its eyes! It has no color vision! All the other organisms can see a huge spectrum from IR to UV, but this one is stuck with a blurry version of black & white for now! Oh nooooo....!!!!

                          Well I think if the administration or any big players were serious about developing AWE and advanced wind energy in general, they would be working more closely with this marsupial. There are lots of great solutions gestating in this pouch. I saw the problem and many great solutions decades ago. Like "hey let's make one with helium-inflated blades" - "nah that would be too hard". Could you imagine trying to get a global warming alarmist to build anything? They're be too busy going to see their therapist! They're all on medication!
                          Do you think they really believe in "global warming"? These people sit around and wait for more oil wells to be drilled so their jumbo-jet can get snowed in at the next global warming conference.

                          We the people will be the only ones to do anything about this...
                          :)
                          Hope we get some wind today! This is the calm season!

                          > (1) by being the first to use the mark in
                          > commerce;
                          **** Yeah commerce
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