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4T

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  • Joe Faust
    An AWE-bird species: 4T
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 4, 2011

       

      An AWE-bird species:

      4T

       

    • Doug
      Couple the two top ends to close this otherwise continuous loop, and keep the direction of rotation constant, and you are back at laddermill , which was seen
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 4, 2011
        Couple the two top ends to close this otherwise continuous loop, and keep the direction of rotation constant, and you are back at "laddermill", which was seen by me as a kid in the 1970's as an improvement over the simple reel-in/reel-out multi-kite train that would be the first beginning notion that naturally occurs to a layman contemplating airborne wind energy for the first time.

        --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > An AWE-bird species:
        >
        > 4T
        >
      • Joe Faust
        Sketch was not meant to declare novel method, but to capture a method we know and to tease the wonder of aggregate stability while teasing the question of what
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 4, 2011


          Sketch was not meant to declare novel method, but to capture a method we know
          and to tease the wonder of aggregate stability while teasing the question of what governance is doing about "tower" or not for AWE installations.

          The full looping with top coupling that you documented in the 70s for one-way rotating is certainly in view by AWE Community;  such species and the 4T  should be in a fly-off at the same field some day.  The ROI for the two sorts will be interesting to behold, as there will be very many detail differences between the two system types.

          4T versus SLM (Selsam laddermill) 

          • 4T can be short-stroke or moderate long stroke with reversing directions
          • SLM stays long stroke in one direction
          • 4T could feature AoA alternation via macro tether changes
          • SLM could feature AoA change at top for down drive.
          • 4T could have aerostatic kytoon in pilot helper position for each top. Or one helper that spread the tops of the trains.
          • SLM could have aerostatic kytoon in pilot helper position with special gear allowing the loop to bring through the airfoils.
          • 4T  has each train operate similarly, each with the two phases.
          • SLM has the upgoing wing set in one mode and the downgoing wing set in another mode.
          • SLM might invite super strong helper stay-top skyhook to allow even the down-going airfoils to drive strongly down, so that upgoing airfoils and downgoing airfoils are heavily driving; such option would have all airfoils up and down driving the one-way generation. Challenge and expense of such a helper system brings on a what is a full second sort of SLM laddermill.

          Etc. ? help....?

           

        • harry valentine
          Can the design be adapted to drive a crankshaft connected to a flywheel to maintain momentum as the airborne system reverses elevation? Such a system may
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 4, 2011
            Can the design be adapted to drive a crankshaft connected to a flywheel to maintain momentum as the airborne system reverses elevation? Such a system may involve less complexity at ground level.
             
             
            Harry

              

            To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            From: joefaust333@...
            Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 20:56:07 +0000
            Subject: [AWECS] Re: 4T

             


            Sketch was not meant to declare novel method, but to capture a method we know
            and to tease the wonder of aggregate stability while teasing the question of what governance is doing about "tower" or not for AWE installations.
            The full looping with top coupling that you documented in the 70s for one-way rotating is certainly in view by AWE Community;  such species and the 4T  should be in a fly-off at the same field some day.  The ROI for the two sorts will be interesting to behold, as there will be very many detail differences between the two system types.
            4T versus SLM (Selsam laddermill) 

            • 4T can be short-stroke or moderate long stroke with reversing directions
            • SLM stays long stroke in one direction
            • 4T could feature AoA alternation via macro tether changes
            • SLM could feature AoA change at top for down drive.
            • 4T could have aerostatic kytoon in pilot helper position for each top. Or one helper that spread the tops of the trains.
            • SLM could have aerostatic kytoon in pilot helper position with special gear allowing the loop to bring through the airfoils.
            • 4T  has each train operate similarly, each with the two phases.
            • SLM has the upgoing wing set in one mode and the downgoing wing set in another mode.
            • SLM might invite super strong helper stay-top skyhook to allow even the down-going airfoils to drive strongly down, so that upgoing airfoils and downgoing airfoils are heavily driving; such option would have all airfoils up and down driving the one-way generation. Challenge and expense of such a helper system brings on a what is a full second sort of SLM laddermill.
            Etc. ? help....?
             

          • Darin Selby
            Did you guys notice how the curved arrow makes a cool smiley face? To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com From: joefaust333@gmail.com Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 4, 2011
              Did you guys notice how the curved arrow makes a cool smiley face?


              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              From: joefaust333@...
              Date: Sun, 4 Sep 2011 13:47:14 +0000
              Subject: [AWECS] 4T

               

               

              An AWE-bird species:

              4T

               


            • dave santos
              Harry,   Its true that a design dependent on two kite trains both behaving in a coordinated fashion is trickier than  isolated trains equipped with
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 4, 2011

                Harry,
                 
                Its true that a design dependent on two kite trains both behaving in a coordinated fashion is trickier than "isolated" trains equipped with elastic return and flywheel momentum to power a recovery phase and smooth output power. However, Joe's general intuition is sound, multi trains will pay, especially when, as you suggest, driving a crank by phased tugs.
                 
                The key idea does not stop at just two trains to drive a crank/flywheel/generator combo, but to make many trains do so, and ultimately drive the largest single COTS generators at near-gigawatt scale. With enough phased quasi self-sufficient trains in harness, power output is smoothed with less flywheel need,
                daveS
                 
                PS Doug is always wrong in claiming scientists are paper pushers or charlatans. True scientists, by definition, are those who formulate theories about the world and test them.
                 
                Darin, please avoid the list for way off-topic chat, it causes over hundred recipients to lose time better devoted to AWE study-

                --- On Sun, 9/4/11, Darin Selby <darin_selby@...> wrote:

                From: Darin Selby <darin_selby@...>
                Subject: RE: [AWECS] 4T
                To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, September 4, 2011, 9:18 PM

                Did you guys notice how the curved arrow makes a cool smiley face?

                .
              • Doug
                Well it is certainly an interesting idea. Caught my attention ina good way. Perhaps a step toward more consistent output for reeling thrust-force systems. I
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 5, 2011
                  Well it is certainly an interesting idea. Caught my attention ina good way.
                  Perhaps a step toward more consistent output for reeling thrust-force systems.
                  I seem to remember though, that the reelers like to reel in faster than reeling out.
                  Real (as opposed to reel) economical wind energy has so far been shown to exclusively involve rotation across the wind.
                  :)

                  --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Faust" <joefaust333@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Sketch was not meant to declare novel method, but to capture a method we
                  > know
                  > and to tease the wonder of aggregate stability while teasing the
                  > question of what governance is doing about "tower" or not for AWE
                  > installations.
                  >
                  > The full looping with top coupling that you documented in the 70s for
                  > one-way rotating is certainly in view by AWE Community; such species
                  > and the 4T should be in a fly-off at the same field some day. The ROI
                  > for the two sorts will be interesting to behold, as there will be very
                  > many detail differences between the two system types.
                  >
                  > 4T versus SLM (Selsam laddermill)
                  >
                  > * 4T can be short-stroke or moderate long stroke with reversing
                  > directions
                  > * SLM stays long stroke in one direction
                  >
                  > * 4T could feature AoA alternation via macro tether changes
                  > * SLM could feature AoA change at top for down drive.
                  >
                  > * 4T could have aerostatic kytoon in pilot helper position for each
                  > top. Or one helper that spread the tops of the trains.
                  > * SLM could have aerostatic kytoon in pilot helper position with
                  > special gear allowing the loop to bring through the airfoils.
                  >
                  > * 4T has each train operate similarly, each with the two phases.
                  > * SLM has the upgoing wing set in one mode and the downgoing wing set
                  > in another mode.
                  >
                  > * SLM might invite super strong helper stay-top skyhook to allow even
                  > the down-going airfoils to drive strongly down, so that upgoing airfoils
                  > and downgoing airfoils are heavily driving; such option would have all
                  > airfoils up and down driving the one-way generation. Challenge and
                  > expense of such a helper system brings on a what is a full second sort
                  > of SLM laddermill.
                  >
                  > Etc. ? help....?
                  >
                • Doug
                  Hey Dave S.: U R funny :)
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 5, 2011
                    Hey Dave S.: U R funny :)
                    > daveS
                    > PS Doug is always�wrong�
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