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Makani Role ////Re: [AWECS] Re: ARPA-E Inquiry

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  • mmarchitti
    Actually the electrical production in KiteGen Stem suffers of two types of intermittence: one when the kite change the transverse direction, and the other when
    Message 1 of 24 , May 15, 2011
      Actually the electrical production in KiteGen Stem suffers of two types of intermittence: one when the kite change the transverse direction, and the other when the cables have to be reeled in.
      However, an efficient solution has been found, and is based on a supercapacitor buffer. It is also to be said that if you install several KiteGen Stem, the electrical production will be smoothed by combining the output of the plants. Finally, is it so important that the electrical production is smooth?

      --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem" <pierre.benhaiem@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > .For higher
      > altitudes flygens are perhaps less adapted and one can prefer
      > reel-out/in like KiteGen Stem if solutions for smooth electrical
      > production are found.
    • Pierre BENHAIEM
      Nearly all schemes (except KiteGen Carousel and some schemes with autogyro) comprising crosswind flygens suffer of at least one type of intermittence: one when
      Message 2 of 24 , May 15, 2011
        Nearly all schemes (except KiteGen Carousel and some schemes with autogyro) comprising crosswind flygens suffer of at least one type of intermittence:"one when the kite change the transverse direction...".For the other type of intermittence "when the cables have to be reeled in" effectively with "several KiteGen Stem,the electrical production will be smoothed by combining the output of the plants",so supercapacitor buffer can be reduced.

        PierreB  




        > Message du 15/05/11 10:01
        > De : "mmarchitti"
        > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
        > Copie à :
        > Objet : Makani Role ////Re: [AWECS] Re: ARPA-E Inquiry
        >
        >  

        > Actually the electrical production in KiteGen Stem suffers of two types of intermittence: one when the kite change the transverse direction, and the other when the cables have to be reeled in.
        > However, an efficient solution has been found, and is based on a supercapacitor buffer. It is also to be said that if you install several KiteGen Stem, the electrical production will be smoothed by combining the output of the plants. Finally, is it so important that the electrical production is smooth?
        >
        > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem" wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > .For higher
        > > altitudes flygens are perhaps less adapted and one can prefer
        > > reel-out/in like KiteGen Stem if solutions for smooth electrical
        > > production are found.
        >
        >


      • Robert Copcutt
        The big problem with all wind energy systems is that sometimes it blows too fast and often it blows too slowly. This is the major issue, even at high altitude.
        Message 3 of 24 , May 15, 2011
          The big problem with all wind energy systems is that sometimes it blows
          too fast and often it blows too slowly. This is the major issue, even at
          high altitude. To overcome this problem we need systems to store in the
          order of a week's average energy supply. Compared to this requirement,
          the few minutes needed to rewind a winch are trivial. I have an idea
          that could deliver this level of energy storage for a realistic price so
          I am not at all concerned whether our AWE systems deliver smooth or
          intermittent power.

          Even without the new battery I am working on intermittent power delivery
          is still not a problem. If your wind generator is connected to the grid,
          the grid can supply the rewind power. If you are off-grid you need a
          battery anyway - because it is not always blowing when you need the
          power.

          Robert.


          On Sun, 2011-05-15 at 10:25 +0200, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
          >
          > Nearly all schemes (except KiteGen Carousel and some schemes with
          > autogyro) comprising crosswind flygens suffer of at least one type of
          > intermittence:"one when the kite change the transverse
          > direction...".For the other type of intermittence "when the cables
          > have to be reeled in" effectively with "several KiteGen Stem,the
          > electrical production will be smoothed by combining the output of the
          > plants",so supercapacitor buffer can be reduced.
          >
          > PierreB
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > Message du 15/05/11 10:01
          > > De : "mmarchitti"
          > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          > > Copie à :
          > > Objet : Makani Role ////Re: [AWECS] Re: ARPA-E Inquiry
          > >
          > >
          >
          > > Actually the electrical production in KiteGen Stem suffers
          > of two types of intermittence: one when the kite change the
          > transverse direction, and the other when the cables have to be
          > reeled in.
          > > However, an efficient solution has been found, and is based
          > on a supercapacitor buffer. It is also to be said that if you
          > install several KiteGen Stem, the electrical production will
          > be smoothed by combining the output of the plants. Finally, is
          > it so important that the electrical production is smooth?
          > >
          > > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem"
          > wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > .For higher
          > > > altitudes flygens are perhaps less adapted and one can
          > prefer
          > > > reel-out/in like KiteGen Stem if solutions for smooth
          > electrical
          > > > production are found.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
        • Pierre BENHAIEM
          Temporary storage (some minutes) is not a big problem but is an element of global cost.An interesting advice from Stephan Wrage and Stephan Brabeck Wind energy
          Message 4 of 24 , May 15, 2011
            Temporary storage (some minutes) is not a big problem but is an element of global cost.An interesting advice from Stephan Wrage and Stephan Brabeck Wind energy plant with a steerable kite - Patent 7504741:
            "The device according to the invention, in particular the two particularly advantageous embodiments described in the foregoing, can be further developed in the form of a device for converting into constant energy the cyclical energy produced by the energy converter, the device being one or more of the following: a flywheel, a pressure reservoir, a hoisting device for temporary storage of energy in a hoisted mass, at least one capacitor and/or at least one battery. In many applications, the energy provided by the device according to the invention and which is characterized by cyclical variation, on the one hand, due the cyclical alternation between veering out and hauling in the load cable, and on the other hand by variations in the tensile force or veering speed of the load cable, will not be suitable for feeding it directly into a local or public power grid, or suitable in some other way for being passed on or consumed in this varying form. For this reason, an important development of the device according to the invention is to convert the cyclical energy supply to a constant energy supply by various means. The different means for making the energy constant must be appropriately selected according to the specific application, form of energy and investment volume."

            For bigger storage (a week),see also +++++ Des éoliennes marines ancrées sur une base en béton ... (first part in French language,video and comments on schema in English language) on underwater pumped storage.

            AWE can become a major component of energy mix coupled with a good storage device:off shore AWECS with pumped storage could be studied.

            PierreB 

            > Message du 15/05/11 16:32
            > De : "Robert Copcutt"
            > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            > Copie à :
            > Objet : re: Makani Role ////Re: [AWECS] Re: ARPA-E Inquiry
            >
            >  

            > The big problem with all wind energy systems is that sometimes it blows
            > too fast and often it blows too slowly. This is the major issue, even at
            > high altitude. To overcome this problem we need systems to store in the
            > order of a week's average energy supply. Compared to this requirement,
            > the few minutes needed to rewind a winch are trivial. I have an idea
            > that could deliver this level of energy storage for a realistic price so
            > I am not at all concerned whether our AWE systems deliver smooth or
            > intermittent power.
            >
            > Even without the new battery I am working on intermittent power delivery
            > is still not a problem. If your wind generator is connected to the grid,
            > the grid can supply the rewind power. If you are off-grid you need a
            > battery anyway - because it is not always blowing when you need the
            > power.
            >
            > Robert.
            >
            > On Sun, 2011-05-15 at 10:25 +0200, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
            > >
            > > Nearly all schemes (except KiteGen Carousel and some schemes with
            > > autogyro) comprising crosswind flygens suffer of at least one type of
            > > intermittence:"one when the kite change the transverse
            > > direction...".For the other type of intermittence "when the cables
            > > have to be reeled in" effectively with "several KiteGen Stem,the
            > > electrical production will be smoothed by combining the output of the
            > > plants",so supercapacitor buffer can be reduced.
            > >
            > > PierreB
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > > Message du 15/05/11 10:01
            > > > De : "mmarchitti"
            > > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Copie à :
            > > > Objet : Makani Role ////Re: [AWECS] Re: ARPA-E Inquiry
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Actually the electrical production in KiteGen Stem suffers
            > > of two types of intermittence: one when the kite change the
            > > transverse direction, and the other when the cables have to be
            > > reeled in.
            > > > However, an efficient solution has been found, and is based
            > > on a supercapacitor buffer. It is also to be said that if you
            > > install several KiteGen Stem, the electrical production will
            > > be smoothed by combining the output of the plants. Finally, is
            > > it so important that the electrical production is smooth?
            > > >
            > > > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem"
            > > wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > .For higher
            > > > > altitudes flygens are perhaps less adapted and one can
            > > prefer
            > > > > reel-out/in like KiteGen Stem if solutions for smooth
            > > electrical
            > > > > production are found.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >


          • Doug
            If you have an economical method of electric energy storage, you don t need to associate it with unknown technologies like AWE. You are an instant billionaire.
            Message 5 of 24 , May 16, 2011
              If you have an economical method of electric energy storage, you don't need to associate it with unknown technologies like AWE.
              You are an instant billionaire.

              You can find a ready market for your advanced energy storage system in UPS installations, then storing cheap night-time power for resale during the day. you'll be powering everything from flashlights to cel phones to computers to the entire grid!

              I would contact EverReady in South Africa and see if they are interested. They also produce a working wind turbine.

              The demand for such an energy storage system worldwide is HUGE. And in fact if you DID have such an effective energy storage system, it would make AWE that much LESS relevant since we would have so much more power from existing sources with all that night-time power that is now "thrown away" being available during the day.

              This statement that "all we need" is a new energy storage system to simply "store a week's worth of power" (trivial of course!) and then AWE will be facilitated (we solved the only problem!) is just the reason why this nascent art will remain forever in the all-talk format as long as this mindset remains.

              No Robert, you probably don't have such a means to store that much energy economically. That sounds like a fantasy. "Oh sure, I can easily sovle this intractable problem as soon as I reveal my enabling solution to this OTHER intractable problem!"

              And if you do, congratulations as your invention will revolutionize the world, making electric vehicles suddenly affordable and economical, with the electricity produced at night by nukes that do not like to be powered down during times of less demand but are better left running at a single high output level that does not change.

              In my "Tutorial for NASA" I warned against exactly this misplaced idea, that somehow one might "change the subject" of AWE, substituting "advanced power storage" for "producing wind energy", leaving the real work in developing the AWE system as suddenly trivial, and refocusing attention on a search for a better battery.

              Well guess what? After you're done developing your better battery, the challenges of AWE will not have changed: you need something that works, and not only works, but works economically and reliably.

              Again, this misguided diversion from the stated challenge of AWE to peripherally-related issues such as power storage is rife in the world of newbie wind energy "innovators". In fact I think I've heard it 1000 times in the world of regular wind turbines. "All the problems will just disappear as soon as my revolutionary power storage system is developed!" Yup at least 1000 times. The last one was a "urine battery". they get all excited about their breakthrough then when you check back in 10 years they are still at the same place - hypothesizing about their simple new battery and 100 other half-thought-through would-be solutions.

              The issues with retraction cycles have to do with causing an even further reduced capacity factor, which is already a dealbreaker issue with any wind energy system, wear from reversing forces, unprecedented longevity for nonstop 24/7/365 reeling in and out, and complexity in general.

              Just as in regular wind energy, these "solutions" and claims of solutions are predictable and repetitive. Gotta at least rise above the "history repeats itself" mode...
              :)
              Doug Selsam
              http://www.USWINDLABS.com


              --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Copcutt <r@...> wrote:
              >
              > The big problem with all wind energy systems is that sometimes it blows
              > too fast and often it blows too slowly. This is the major issue, even at
              > high altitude. To overcome this problem we need systems to store in the
              > order of a week's average energy supply. Compared to this requirement,
              > the few minutes needed to rewind a winch are trivial. I have an idea
              > that could deliver this level of energy storage for a realistic price so
              > I am not at all concerned whether our AWE systems deliver smooth or
              > intermittent power.
              >
              > Even without the new battery I am working on intermittent power delivery
              > is still not a problem. If your wind generator is connected to the grid,
              > the grid can supply the rewind power. If you are off-grid you need a
              > battery anyway - because it is not always blowing when you need the
              > power.
              >
              > Robert.
              >
              >
              > On Sun, 2011-05-15 at 10:25 +0200, Pierre BENHAIEM wrote:
              > >
              > > Nearly all schemes (except KiteGen Carousel and some schemes with
              > > autogyro) comprising crosswind flygens suffer of at least one type of
              > > intermittence:"one when the kite change the transverse
              > > direction...".For the other type of intermittence "when the cables
              > > have to be reeled in" effectively with "several KiteGen Stem,the
              > > electrical production will be smoothed by combining the output of the
              > > plants",so supercapacitor buffer can be reduced.
              > >
              > > PierreB
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > > Message du 15/05/11 10:01
              > > > De : "mmarchitti"
              > > > A : AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              > > > Copie à :
              > > > Objet : Makani Role ////Re: [AWECS] Re: ARPA-E Inquiry
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > > Actually the electrical production in KiteGen Stem suffers
              > > of two types of intermittence: one when the kite change the
              > > transverse direction, and the other when the cables have to be
              > > reeled in.
              > > > However, an efficient solution has been found, and is based
              > > on a supercapacitor buffer. It is also to be said that if you
              > > install several KiteGen Stem, the electrical production will
              > > be smoothed by combining the output of the plants. Finally, is
              > > it so important that the electrical production is smooth?
              > > >
              > > > --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, "Pierre Benhaiem"
              > > wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > .For higher
              > > > > altitudes flygens are perhaps less adapted and one can
              > > prefer
              > > > > reel-out/in like KiteGen Stem if solutions for smooth
              > > electrical
              > > > > production are found.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Robert Copcutt
              ... Come on Doug, you KNOW that is not true. Your own super twin turbine is a good idea yet you have struggled to achieve anything near its full market
              Message 6 of 24 , May 16, 2011
                On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 14:46 +0000, Doug wrote:
                >
                > If you have an economical method of electric energy storage, you don't
                > need to associate it with unknown technologies like AWE.
                > You are an instant billionaire.

                Come on Doug, you KNOW that is not true. Your own super twin turbine is
                a good idea yet you have struggled to achieve anything near its full
                market potential. Most inventions are ignored with good reason. Most of
                the rest are ignored even though they deserve attention. Most of the
                remaining ones are stolen. Most of those still remaining are
                undervalued. That leaves very very few inventors getting fair value for
                their ideas. Most of those were already powerful businessmen when they
                had their idea.

                >
                > I would contact EverReady in South Africa and see if they are
                > interested. They also produce a working wind turbine.

                Thanks for that lead. I will definitely follow it up.

                >
                > The demand for such an energy storage system worldwide is HUGE. And in
                > fact if you DID have such an effective energy storage system, it would
                > make AWE that much LESS relevant since we would have so much more
                > power from existing sources with all that night-time power that is now
                > "thrown away" being available during the day.

                There is not that much thrown away and AWE has the potential to cost
                less than any other primary generator technology. AWE will have an
                important roll to play, as will storage, and grid extension, and the
                smart grid etc.

                >
                > No Robert, you probably don't have such a means to store that much
                > energy economically. That sounds like a fantasy.

                I am putting some of my ideas about AWE into the public domain because
                it seems to be the best way to proceed. However, it is not yet clear how
                to proceed with the battery technology. You can believe what you like
                but I am not saying any more until I have a plan.

                >
                > And if you do, congratulations as your invention will revolutionize
                > the world, making electric vehicles suddenly affordable and economical

                You use a lead acid battery to start your car, a lithium one in your
                mobile phone and alkalines in your remote controls. My idea is not
                suitable for cars, only grid storage and UPS.

                > In my "Tutorial for NASA" I warned against exactly this misplaced
                > idea, that somehow one might "change the subject" of AWE, substituting
                > "advanced power storage" for "producing wind energy", leaving the real
                > work in developing the AWE system as suddenly trivial, and refocusing
                > attention on a search for a better battery.

                AWE and storage each on their own will deliver benefits. Together they
                could deliver a revolution. Their is plenty of work for everyone to do
                and I hope the spoils of success will be fairly distributed.


                > The last one was a "urine battery". they get all excited about their
                > breakthrough.

                Yes, that was fun.

                >
                > The issues with retraction cycles have to do with causing an even
                > further reduced capacity factor, which is already a dealbreaker issue
                > with any wind energy system, wear from reversing forces, unprecedented
                > longevity for nonstop 24/7/365 reeling in and out, and complexity in
                > general.

                We are waiting to see your alternative. If the kite is retracted fast
                enough the tether is under tension the whole time. The rapid retraction
                also minimizes the time when power is being consumed rather than
                generated. It IS complicated but there is no reason it cannot be done
                and why the system should not be durable.

                Robert.
              • Doug
                Well all I m saying is that claiming to have the workable energy storage solution that the world so craves is quite a spectacular announcement to make. I mean,
                Message 7 of 24 , May 17, 2011
                  Well all I'm saying is that claiming to have the workable energy storage solution that the world so craves is quite a spectacular announcement to make.
                  I mean, lots of people SAY that.
                  If it is for real, can you build a working prototype at any scale?
                  If Superturbine(R) is lagging in development speed, it is my own fault, but the concept has been proven and independently tested.
                  You make a good point that just because an idea is good doesn't mean it magically develops itself without help, or that it's easy.
                  BUT such a breakthrough deserves whatever you can do to develop it.
                  :)
                  D.S.

                  --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, Robert Copcutt <r@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Mon, 2011-05-16 at 14:46 +0000, Doug wrote:
                  > >
                  > > If you have an economical method of electric energy storage, you don't
                  > > need to associate it with unknown technologies like AWE.
                  > > You are an instant billionaire.
                  >
                  > Come on Doug, you KNOW that is not true. Your own super twin turbine is
                  > a good idea yet you have struggled to achieve anything near its full
                  > market potential. Most inventions are ignored with good reason. Most of
                  > the rest are ignored even though they deserve attention. Most of the
                  > remaining ones are stolen. Most of those still remaining are
                  > undervalued. That leaves very very few inventors getting fair value for
                  > their ideas. Most of those were already powerful businessmen when they
                  > had their idea.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > I would contact EverReady in South Africa and see if they are
                  > > interested. They also produce a working wind turbine.
                  >
                  > Thanks for that lead. I will definitely follow it up.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > The demand for such an energy storage system worldwide is HUGE. And in
                  > > fact if you DID have such an effective energy storage system, it would
                  > > make AWE that much LESS relevant since we would have so much more
                  > > power from existing sources with all that night-time power that is now
                  > > "thrown away" being available during the day.
                  >
                  > There is not that much thrown away and AWE has the potential to cost
                  > less than any other primary generator technology. AWE will have an
                  > important roll to play, as will storage, and grid extension, and the
                  > smart grid etc.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > No Robert, you probably don't have such a means to store that much
                  > > energy economically. That sounds like a fantasy.
                  >
                  > I am putting some of my ideas about AWE into the public domain because
                  > it seems to be the best way to proceed. However, it is not yet clear how
                  > to proceed with the battery technology. You can believe what you like
                  > but I am not saying any more until I have a plan.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > And if you do, congratulations as your invention will revolutionize
                  > > the world, making electric vehicles suddenly affordable and economical
                  >
                  > You use a lead acid battery to start your car, a lithium one in your
                  > mobile phone and alkalines in your remote controls. My idea is not
                  > suitable for cars, only grid storage and UPS.
                  >
                  > > In my "Tutorial for NASA" I warned against exactly this misplaced
                  > > idea, that somehow one might "change the subject" of AWE, substituting
                  > > "advanced power storage" for "producing wind energy", leaving the real
                  > > work in developing the AWE system as suddenly trivial, and refocusing
                  > > attention on a search for a better battery.
                  >
                  > AWE and storage each on their own will deliver benefits. Together they
                  > could deliver a revolution. Their is plenty of work for everyone to do
                  > and I hope the spoils of success will be fairly distributed.
                  >
                  >
                  > > The last one was a "urine battery". they get all excited about their
                  > > breakthrough.
                  >
                  > Yes, that was fun.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > The issues with retraction cycles have to do with causing an even
                  > > further reduced capacity factor, which is already a dealbreaker issue
                  > > with any wind energy system, wear from reversing forces, unprecedented
                  > > longevity for nonstop 24/7/365 reeling in and out, and complexity in
                  > > general.
                  >
                  > We are waiting to see your alternative. If the kite is retracted fast
                  > enough the tether is under tension the whole time. The rapid retraction
                  > also minimizes the time when power is being consumed rather than
                  > generated. It IS complicated but there is no reason it cannot be done
                  > and why the system should not be durable.
                  >
                  > Robert.
                  >
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