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Helical Wave AWECS (Theory of Operation)

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  • dave santos
    The HAWT is a helical-wave device. One clearly sees helicity in wake visualization, but the real work is done by hidden helicity of the standing stress-wave
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 3, 2011
      The HAWT is a helical-wave device. One clearly sees helicity in wake visualization, but the real work is done by hidden helicity of the standing stress-wave from a turbine blade into the generator shaft. Similarly, a looping kite transfers energy downward as a helical wave. The Tri-Tether is ideal to convert helical kite waves into shaft power. Biological Flagella are a nice model for helical wave mechanics in AWE, as the far slower macro scale keeps the Re spread within a dynamic similarity range.

      Based on studies across many fields we can expect to create power stacks of kites that self-organize powerful helical waves to drive tri-tethers. Presume a nonrotating pilot-kite or pilot-stack at top to orient the helical part upward. A tagline to the top of the power stack hauled down crosswind will progressively depower or kill the helical-wave mode. Fitting the pilot-kite or pilot-stack fitted with its own kill- or tag-line allows total landing control of the AWECS. To scale greatly, a mesh control plane held up by lifter kites can be set over a large dense array of helical-wave AWECS. The entire array can be controlled from one set of mechanical inputs.

      coolIP

    • Doug
      Joe: Why do I say excruciating ? Well, are we serious about wind energy or not? Do we really want to do it or is it just a game for bloggers to argue about
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 4, 2011
        Joe:
        Why do I say "excruciating"?
        Well, are we serious about wind energy or not?
        Do we really want to do it or is it just a game for bloggers to argue about their silly fantasies, and bureaucrats to garner an endless stream of funding to show consistent null results at our expense?

        You're doing a FANTASTIC job of agglomerating all thought on AWE.
        Unfortunately, most of what is put forth is misguided and actually an impediment to progress.
        I've tried to explain that after 10 years of this SAME EXACT dynamic on the "regular" wind turbine sites (be sure what I mean by "regular": They WORK), I'm simply not going to take the endless stream of nonsense lying down.
        Yes I will die on this hill.
        We have crackpots galore in regular wind energy too - some of them are VERY eloquent in their writing, like Dave S.

        These are actually the worst, since most people unfamiliar with the art will confuse eloquent writing styles with factual knowledge.
        The idea that wave-like motions or oscillations can provide wind energy has been beaten to death for 3000 years and NEVER been found advantageous. There is NOTHING like a rotor, with a hub, spinning: It can spin forever and never wear out, with no guidance needed - it just does the job, period, which was why it was developed.

        If other methods could work well, they would have already. The fact is there is a standard mechanism for energy exchange in an open flow, it's called a wind turbine rotor, it is the same as a gyrocopter rotor, and that is all one needs to know to do AWE. It is EASY EASY EASY to do AWE, NOT hard hard hard. There's NOTHING TO IT.
        It's a PIECE OF CAKE!!! Why try and make it hard? Why ignore the simple machines that have been proven to work?

        The oscillating cycles ec. are just ways to create large amounts of wear and early failure, in addition to being less efficient in the first place!.
        Double-blades etc. - all crackpot insanity from regular wind energy.
        As I've pointed out, without expertise in wind energy, there's nobody on this list and pretty much nobody in this "industry" who even has A CLUE about wind energy in general, LET ALONE how to generate electricity LESS expensively by getting it airborne. Note: LESS expensively - hello Rube Goldberg & Dr. Suess...
        Less-Expensively implies LESS material used per watt output, LESS complexity, Less fabrication cost, to sweep a given area, NOT more material and more head0scratching complexity. We KNOW how to make energy from the wind and we KNOW ho to make flyiing machines, and the two dovetail neatly at the gyrocopter. HELLO. WAKE UP.

        No matter how many resources are applied to AWE, if they are MISapplied they do more harm than good.
        Example: NASA gets involved and mistakes Magenn for a legitimate AWE effort, mentioning an UNWORKABLE technology in their report, while NOT mentioning a guy here who was ahead of Delfts as a teenager, who can build a steady-state AWE turbine anytime with 1 moving part, in his sleep.
        Who gets the credibilty?
        Why NASA of course.
        Why?
        Because they put a man on the moon 40 years ago.
        Nevermind that they have already demonstrated that they are:
        1) 100% ignorant of wind energy, evidenced by their mention of Magenn and their prediction that Chinese drag-based machines will be the first to dominate.
        The comment "excruciating" must be taken in context of the previous post wherein I explained WHY it was so excruciating.
        Joe if there is a destination and a proven road to get there, why keep asking where the road is?
        Why keep talking about a million ill-advised paths to the destination when we have a proven path NOW that solves all the problems the others have?
        Why?
        Because It's just little old me and not NASA, NREL, ARPA-E or some other wizard-of-oz-esque do-nothing smoke-and-mirrors tax-funded recreational picnic with the usual zero results?
        Facts are facts and results are results.

        I suggest people who want to move forward in this field get with the leader and that is Superturbine(R).
        Doug Selsam
        http://www.USWINDLABS.com

        --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
        >
        > The�HAWT is a helical-wave device. One clearly sees helicity in wake visualization, but�the real work is done by hidden�helicity of the standing stress-wave from a turbine blade into the generator shaft.�Similarly, a�looping kite transfers energy�downward as a helical wave. The Tri-Tether is ideal to convert helical kite waves into shaft power. Biological Flagella are a�nice model for helical wave mechanics in AWE, as the far slower macro scale keeps the Re spread within a dynamic similarity range.
        >
        > Based on�studies across many fields�we can�expect to create power stacks of kites that self-organize powerful helical waves to drive tri-tethers. Presume a nonrotating pilot-kite or pilot-stack at top to orient the helical part upward. A tagline to the top of the power stack hauled�down crosswind�will progressively depower or kill the helical-wave mode.�Fitting the pilot-kite or pilot-stack fitted with its own kill- or�tag-line allows total�landing control of the AWECS.�To scale greatly, a�mesh control plane held up by lifter kites�can be set over a large dense�array of helical-wave AWECS. The entire array�can be controlled from one set of mechanical inputs.
        >
        > coolIP
        >
      • dave santos
        Additional Notes- The helical-wave view is a 3D projection of loop-waves we normally consider in 2D space. The Figure-of-Eight kite sweep-mode is an octave -
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 4, 2011
          Additional Notes-

          The helical-wave view is a 3D projection of loop-waves we normally consider in 2D space.

          The Figure-of-Eight kite sweep-mode is an "octave"- the horizontal yaw frequency is in phase & double the vertical pitch/surge frequency. The Loop sweep-mode is matched-frequency horizontal & vertical in-phase oscillation. A kite tends to start waggling in eight-mode & end up in loop-mode as windspeed increases, with an awkward "chaotic" transition zone in between. Its meaningful to think of these Lissajous Loop & Figure-of-Eight patterns as basic waveforms, even though most folks only think of sine-waveforms. The kite modes even produce infrasound tones as musical notes, the octave eight is especially harmonius.


          Note to Doug,

          You wrote-

               "The idea that wave-like motions or oscillations can provide wind energy has been beaten to death for 3000 years and NEVER been found advantageous."

          Please give due notice that for well over 3000 yrs sailboats have tacked back & forth, & that this wave-like wind-driven oscillation was a solid energy basis for the first worldwide transportation network. Even with all the modern HAWTS coming online its probable that the entire power of the Age of Sail still well eclipses rotary wind power. To this day almost all sailboats operate this way, even if folks like me enjoy experimenting with gyroboats. Similarly, the patterns traction kites sweep are powerful wave-like oscillations. There are also early VAWT clapper mills that did in fact serve ancient Persian & Chinese needs.

          This forum is about principled examination of ideas not ad hominem arguement. Your " eloquent crackpot" complaint fails to score in a proper technical discussion. Please answer DaveL's simple questions if you want to impress by integrity, rather than be moderated for name-calling,

          daveS






          From: Doug <doug@...>
          To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
          Cc:
          Sent: Friday, February 4, 2011 11:21 AM
          Subject: [AWECS] Re: Helical Wave AWECS (Theory of Operation)

           
          Joe:
          Why do I say "excruciating"?
          Well, are we serious about wind energy or not?
          Do we really want to do it or is it just a game for bloggers to argue about their silly fantasies, and bureaucrats to garner an endless stream of funding to show consistent null results at our expense?

          You're doing a FANTASTIC job of agglomerating all thought on AWE.
          Unfortunately, most of what is put forth is misguided and actually an impediment to progress.
          I've tried to explain that after 10 years of this SAME EXACT dynamic on the "regular" wind turbine sites (be sure what I mean by "regular": They WORK), I'm simply not going to take the endless stream of nonsense lying down.
          Yes I will die on this hill.
          We have crackpots galore in regular wind energy too - some of them are VERY eloquent in their writing, like Dave S.

          These are actually the worst, since most people unfamiliar with the art will confuse eloquent writing styles with factual knowledge.
          The idea that wave-like motions or oscillations can provide wind energy has been beaten to death for 3000 years and NEVER been found advantageous. There is NOTHING like a rotor, with a hub, spinning: It can spin forever and never wear out, with no guidance needed - it just does the job, period, which was why it was developed.

          If other methods could work well, they would have already. The fact is there is a standard mechanism for energy exchange in an open flow, it's called a wind turbine rotor, it is the same as a gyrocopter rotor, and that is all one needs to know to do AWE. It is EASY EASY EASY to do AWE, NOT hard hard hard. There's NOTHING TO IT.
          It's a PIECE OF CAKE!!! Why try and make it hard? Why ignore the simple machines that have been proven to work?

          The oscillating cycles ec. are just ways to create large amounts of wear and early failure, in addition to being less efficient in the first place!.
          Double-blades etc. - all crackpot insanity from regular wind energy.
          As I've pointed out, without expertise in wind energy, there's nobody on this list and pretty much nobody in this "industry" who even has A CLUE about wind energy in general, LET ALONE how to generate electricity LESS expensively by getting it airborne. Note: LESS expensively - hello Rube Goldberg & Dr. Suess...
          Less-Expensively implies LESS material used per watt output, LESS complexity, Less fabrication cost, to sweep a given area, NOT more material and more head0scratching complexity. We KNOW how to make energy from the wind and we KNOW ho to make flyiing machines, and the two dovetail neatly at the gyrocopter. HELLO. WAKE UP.

          No matter how many resources are applied to AWE, if they are MISapplied they do more harm than good.
          Example: NASA gets involved and mistakes Magenn for a legitimate AWE effort, mentioning an UNWORKABLE technology in their report, while NOT mentioning a guy here who was ahead of Delfts as a teenager, who can build a steady-state AWE turbine anytime with 1 moving part, in his sleep.
          Who gets the credibilty?
          Why NASA of course.
          Why?
          Because they put a man on the moon 40 years ago.
          Nevermind that they have already demonstrated that they are:
          1) 100% ignorant of wind energy, evidenced by their mention of Magenn and their prediction that Chinese drag-based machines will be the first to dominate.
          The comment "excruciating" must be taken in context of the previous post wherein I explained WHY it was so excruciating.
          Joe if there is a destination and a proven road to get there, why keep asking where the road is?
          Why keep talking about a million ill-advised paths to the destination when we have a proven path NOW that solves all the problems the others have?
          Why?
          Because It's just little old me and not NASA, NREL, ARPA-E or some other wizard-of-oz-esque do-nothing smoke-and-mirrors tax-funded recreational picnic with the usual zero results?
          Facts are facts and results are results.

          I suggest people who want to move forward in this field get with the leader and that is Superturbine(R).
          Doug Selsam
          http://www.USWINDLABS.com

          --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
          >
          > The�HAWT is a helical-wave device. One clearly sees helicity in wake visualization, but�the real work is done by hidden�helicity of the standing stress-wave from a turbine blade into the generator shaft.�Similarly, a�looping kite transfers energy�downward as a helical wave. The Tri-Tether is ideal to convert helical kite waves into shaft power. Biological Flagella are a�nice model for helical wave mechanics in AWE, as the far slower macro scale keeps the Re spread within a dynamic similarity range.
          >
          > Based on�studies across many fields�we can�expect to create power stacks of kites that self-organize powerful helical waves to drive tri-tethers. Presume a nonrotating pilot-kite or pilot-stack at top to orient the helical part upward. A tagline to the top of the power stack hauled�down crosswind�will progressively depower or kill the helical-wave mode.�Fitting the pilot-kite or pilot-stack fitted with its own kill- or�tag-line allows total�landing control of the AWECS.�To scale greatly, a�mesh control plane held up by lifter kites�can be set over a large dense�array of helical-wave AWECS. The entire array�can be controlled from one set of mechanical inputs.
          >
          > coolIP
          >




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