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RE: [AWECS] Kite Control Notes

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  • harry valentine
    The reel-in, reel-out kite control concept can be adapted to drive a lever-and-crank mechanism . . . . i.e: the control line pulls against a lever that pushes
    Message 1 of 9 , Jan 10, 2011

      The reel-in, reel-out kite control concept can be adapted to drive a lever-and-crank mechanism
       . . . .  i.e: the control line pulls against a lever that pushes a cohnecting rod to drive a vertical crankshaft. Using geometry, it is possible for a lever pulled over an arc of 45-degrees to drive a crank beyond 180--degrees . . . . 2-kites pulling on levers that drive cranks could maintain positive torque on the crankshaft through 360-degrees of rotation. The crankshaft may also drive a flywheel to maintain inertia.
       
       
      While the carousel concept allows for the use of multiple kites, there would be possible application for 1-kite and 2-kite power generation installations.
       
       
       
      Harry
       
       
       
       

    • Pierre BENHAIEM
      DavesS, A nice option is to operate kites next to the wheel, rather than crowd kites on it The carousel can then be far smaller & operate as a pure generator
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 10, 2011

        DavesS,

        "A nice option is to operate kites next to the wheel, rather than crowd kites on it The carousel can then be far smaller & operate as a pure generator cranked up to TGV speeds."

        Carousel diameter (it is the same thing for OrthoKite and generally) is the result of radial velocity (lever) or tip speed (ring) and the torque.So its diameter is the result of chosen trajectories of kites and the length of tethers,according to the wanted power of kites,according to wanted altitudes.With a smaller diameter and identical trajectories you cannot obtain the same power:trajectories are the same while trajectory of ring descreases,so its tip speed.Following it with no diameter kites are towing without operate any powerful conversion.

        A question:is the kite pilot (maybe terms of "lifter kite" are better) an example of autopilot for "passive control" of a kite system like,for example the "tripod" configuration? 

        PierreB 



        > Message du 10/01/11 22:50
        > De : "dave santos"
        > A : "AWE"
        > Copie à :
        > Objet : [AWECS] Carousel & Kite Control Notes
        >
        >  

        >

        > Some of these notes are in the spirit of Diehl's famous AWE Conjectures; some are review-

        >  

        > ======================

        >  

        > Its harder to fly a kite from a carousel wheel (especially lots of kites doing the Tango) than from a fixed anchor. The quantity of kite is directly limited by carousel diameter.

        >  

        > A nice option is to operate kites next to the wheel, rather than crowd kites on it The carousel can then be far smaller & operate as a pure generator cranked up to TGV speeds. Kite failures remain isolated away from the wheel. This carousel variant can be built with less material, lower capital cost, & less operational risk. It can even be roofed, with all kite-power cableways to the crank buried.

        >  

        > =======================

        >  

        > Useful actuation-bandwidth for a "servo-kite" is its ability to act faster than a disturbance. While a large kite has a slower control-rate, based on its lower fundamantal harmonic, a micro-meteorological disturbance still propagates across any size kite at the same speed. Therefore one must move the control line just about as fast (m/sec), especially to prevent common luff/collapse. A high-speed winching capability is needed, but this trades against high-power winching.

        >  

        > A solution is to "punch turn" the kite, where the "outside" line is simply loosed & plays-out by kite pull, which makes for fast turns with little or no actuator power. One must have some line on the reel (or some give to a steering boom) like money in the bank.

        >  

        > =======================

        >  

        > A "killable" kite like the stem uses does not need super-strong actuation, unlike a non-killable kite, which must be hauled in powerfully in rising wind. Still, the prototype stem's powerful steering servos will serve longer. accept larger kites & enable experiments with non-killable kite rigs.

        >  

        > ========================

        >  

        > Aircraft Re grows faster by size than it diminishes by lower dimensionless velocity (?).

        >  

        > ========================

        >  

        > "Flight-Controller" may be used interchangeably with "Autopilot". "Controller" is common usage in embedded controls & robotics.


        >
      • dave santos
        Pierre, You are right; the single-line kite (pilot-kite) is truly Autopiloted. This is what Sir Clarke meant when he asserted any sufficiently advanced
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 10, 2011
          Pierre,
           
          You are right; the single-line kite (pilot-kite) is truly Autopiloted. This is what Sir Clarke meant when he asserted "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic". Paleo-tech's cybernetic flight capability for AWE is far in advance of anything even NASA has going (Mark Moore proposes triple-redundant electronic flight controls). The classic kite's "passive-aggressive" control ;^) is quantum-phononic field-computing. Its far cheaper & more robust than conventional aerospace controls; a child can make & deploy it. But there is always a control cost-to-performance, whatever method chosen, as predicted by Information Theory & Thermodynamics Law.
           
          daveS
           

           

        • Dave Lang
          ... ... For God s sake DaveS, do you mean tether controlled ? DaveL
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 10, 2011
            Re: [AWECS] Carousel & Kite Control Notes

            The classic kite's "passive-aggressive" control ;^) is quantum-phononic field-computing.
            ...

            For God's sake DaveS, do you mean "tether controlled"?

            DaveL
          • dave santos
            DaveL, Sorry for the rant, Pierre pushed my button. I have not been the same since learning the Patent System drove Doug to sell speakers from a van. No, i
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 10, 2011
              DaveL,
               
              Sorry for the rant, Pierre pushed my button. I have not been the same since learning the Patent System drove Doug to sell speakers from a van.
               
              No, i did not think of the tether as a passive control, but it does after all regulate altitude, so thanks for the hint. Pitch, roll, & yaw of a single-line kite are controlled by true feedback loops created by mere bridling, tails, dihedral, etc. The toy kite is a perfect example of situated embodied logic & high integration. Its important to note this stick & fabric flying robot is even self-powered.
               
              What do you have against field-computing (except that nobody cares about it)? I know you prefer stress-wave view in place of phonon view, but the list of cool phonon interpretations is growing, including quantum behaviours possible in large scale string networks (more ranting). 
               
              So here is an attempted wave conjecture, that aeromechanical AWE is best created as a wind-induced transverse wave train in a wing structure that is optimally converted into longitudinal waves on the tether, & converted back into a transverse standing wave on the generator shaft. I am trying to design suitable low-loss (T<=>L) wave converters with string,
               
              daveS
               
               
               
               

              From: Dave Lang <SeattleDL@...>
              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              Cc:
              Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 5:43:39 PM
              Subject: Re: [AWECS] Carousel & Kite Control Notes

               


              The classic kite's "passive-aggressive" control ;^) is quantum-phononic field-computing.
              ...

              For God's sake DaveS, do you mean "tether controlled"?

              DaveL
               

            • Pierre BENHAIEM
              DaveS, See p.4 an other example of pilot-kite Kite Power Generation but for stabilization. It seems (at least) difficult to see an application of
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 11, 2011
                DaveS,

                See p.4 an other example of "pilot-kite" Kite Power Generation but for stabilization.
                It seems (at least) difficult to see an application of "pilot-kite" for systems like Carousel of Stem and others.

                "Pilot-kite" can be a good (small and quickly available in model airplane market) system for static AWECS where it becomes "kite lifter" of "lifter kite" (my english language!).

                For model airplane market you have a good example on KiteLab ,I have another example on Optimization of AWECS of type flygen (video Manual Flygen ).If theese products are successful,an acceleration of the development of great systems can be accelerated with the only possibility for numerous persons to see existing (even small) AWECS and also with description and annoncement of technological revolution,following it the description of some great AWECS in the packet.

                Note:it seems KiteGen aleady replied to Cristopher Carlin for some points:Bill Gates towards Stem;Apple towards Carousel.

                Other:the document from Dr Fort Felker  Dr. Fort Felker - Engineering Challenges of Airborne Wind ... is essential for procedures towards acceptability in regard to reliability of system.

                PierreB



                > Message du 11/01/11 00:32
                > De : "dave santos"
                > A : "AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com"
                > Copie à :
                > Objet : Re: [AWECS] Carousel & Kite Control Notes
                >
                >  

                >

                Pierre,

                You are right; the single-line kite (pilot-kite) is truly Autopiloted. This is what Sir Clarke meant when he asserted "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistingishable from magic". Paleo-tech's cybernetic flight capability for AWE is far in advance of anything even NASA has going (Mark Moore proposes triple-redundant electronic flight controls). The classic kite's "passive-aggressive" control ;^) is quantum-phononic field-computing. Its far cheaper & more robust than conventional aerospace controls; a child can make & deploy it. But there is always a control cost-to-performance, whatever method chosen, as predicted by Information Theory & Thermodynamics Law.

                daveS


                >  


                >
              • Doug
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 11, 2011
                  --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > DaveL,
                  >
                  > Sorry for the rant, Pierre pushed my button. I have not been the same since learning the Patent System drove Doug to sell speakers from a van.
                  >
                  > No, i did not think of the tether as a passive control, but it does after all regulate altitude, so thanks for the hint. Pitch, roll, & yaw of a single-line kite are controlled by true feedback loops created by mere bridling, tails, dihedral, etc. The toy kite is a perfect example of situated embodied logic & high integration. Its important to note this stick & fabric flying robot is even self-powered.
                  >
                  > What do you have against field-computing (except that nobody cares about it)? I know you prefer stress-wave view in place of phonon view, but the list of cool phonon interpretations is growing, including quantum behaviours possible in large scale string networks (more ranting). 
                  >
                  > So here is an attempted wave conjecture, that aeromechanical AWE is best created as a wind-induced transverse wave train in a wing structure that is optimally converted into longitudinal waves on the tether, & converted back into a transverse standing wave on the generator shaft. I am trying to design suitable low-loss (T<=>L) wave converters with string,
                  >
                  > daveS
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Dave Lang <SeattleDL@...>
                  > To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                  > Cc:
                  > Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 5:43:39 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [AWECS] Carousel & Kite Control Notes
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  > The classic kite's "passive-aggressive" control ;^) is quantum-phononic field-computing.
                  > ...
                  >
                  > For God's sake DaveS, do you mean "tether controlled"?
                  >
                  > DaveL
                  >
                • dave santos
                  Pierre, Its true that a classic pilot-kite is not suited to ride a carousel; its hard for any kite. But a carousel can be easily driven from fixed-anchor
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 11, 2011
                    Pierre,
                     
                    Its true that a classic pilot-kite is not suited to ride a carousel; its hard for any kite. But a carousel can be easily driven from fixed-anchor kite-cells around it. Then pilot-kites can be utilized with great results. In particular, one can suspend sweeping kites under them with all the passive stability benifits (& none of the major active-control negatives).
                     
                    Note that many Pumping Laddermill ideas, like the vari-Dragon kite & Pocock's never yet surpassed two-kite system, have inherent flight stability & can drive pulsed lines feeding a high-speed energy-carousel ( an ultra-high diameter, low RPM generator)
                     
                    The emerging picture, which Chris Carlin so ably painted, is that AWE systems with inherent flight stability are very highly favored. We now have a plausible end-to-end low-complexity conceptual solutions, maybe not performance-optimal, but ready to test against "fancy" concepts.
                     
                    daveS
                     
                     

                    From: Pierre BENHAIEM <pierre.benhaiem@...>
                    To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
                    Cc:
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2011 5:51:47 AM
                    Subject: Re: [AWECS] Carousel & Kite Control Notes

                     

                    DaveS,

                    See p.4 an other example of "pilot-kite" Kite Power Generation but for stabilization.
                    It seems (at least) difficult to see an application of "pilot-kite" for systems like Carousel of Stem and others.

                    "Pilot-kite" can be a good (small and quickly available in model airplane market) system for static AWECS where it becomes "kite lifter" of "lifter kite" (my english language!).

                    For model airplane market you have a good example on KiteLab ,I have another example on Optimization of AWECS of type flygen (video Manual Flygen ).If theese products are successful,an acceleration of the development of great systems can be accelerated with the only possibility for numerous persons to see existing (even small) AWECS and also with description and annoncement of technological revolution,following it the description of some great AWECS in the packet.

                    Note:it seems KiteGen aleady replied to Cristopher Carlin for some points:Bill Gates towards Stem;Apple towards Carousel.

                    Other:the document from Dr Fort Felker  Dr. Fort Felker - Engineering Challenges of Airborne Wind ... is essential for procedures towards acceptability in regard to reliability of system.

                    PierreB



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