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High Temperature Electrolysis (HTE) & Cheap Wind Power

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  • dave santos
    Electrolysis of water to generate hydrogen is usually represented as an inefficient process due to the high waste heat loss in room temperature operation.
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 24 8:37 AM
      Electrolysis of water to generate hydrogen is usually represented as an inefficient process due to the high waste heat loss in "room temperature" operation. If the waste heat is recycled to progressively preheat the water the process becomes more efficient. Practical electrolysis with preheat (to about 900C) can almost double thermodynamic efficiency (from about 40% to 70%) & is called steam electrolysis or HTE. Cheap wind power might also mechanically preheat water (violent agitation) as a first stage to HTE.
       
      While gaseous hydrogen is a poor choice for mass energy storage, it may be just the thing for power leveling of a bursty AWE source, with fuel cells in a quick time frame, or a gas turbine on a longer cycle, preventing brown-out. An electrolysis cell can usefully absorb power surge & can be itself regulated by variable dipping of an electrode. KiteLab Group does calculations & benchtop experiments exploring the practicality of these ideas as applied to AWE & smart grids.
       
      coopip

    • Dan Parker
      DaveS, We found that by cooling the wind hydroxy conversion cell water as close to the freezing point we were able to get the biggest bang for the buck, as
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 24 8:48 AM
           DaveS,
         
                   We found that by cooling the wind hydroxy conversion cell water  as close to the freezing point we were able to get the biggest bang for the buck, as (and if) the water heated up the potential explosive power per given volume of gas was deminished.
         
                                                                                                Dan'l

        To: airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com
        From: santos137@...
        Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:37:00 -0700
        Subject: [AWECS] High Temperature Electrolysis (HTE) & Cheap Wind Power

         
        Electrolysis of water to generate hydrogen is usually represented as an inefficient process due to the high waste heat loss in "room temperature" operation. If the waste heat is recycled to progressively preheat the water the process becomes more efficient. Practical electrolysis with preheat (to about 900C) can almost double thermodynamic efficiency (from about 40% to 70%) & is called steam electrolysis or HTE. Cheap wind power might also mechanically preheat water (violent agitation) as a first stage to HTE.
         
        While gaseous hydrogen is a poor choice for mass energy storage, it may be just the thing for power leveling of a bursty AWE source, with fuel cells in a quick time frame, or a gas turbine on a longer cycle, preventing brown-out. An electrolysis cell can usefully absorb power surge & can be itself regulated by variable dipping of an electrode. KiteLab Group does calculations & benchtop experiments exploring the practicality of these ideas as applied to AWE & smart grids.
         
        coopip




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      • dave santos
        Dan, You may be comparing hot oxyhydrogen gas with cold & what you state is then true for a given volume. There are also other effects than can skew an
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 24 9:27 AM
          Dan,
           
          You may be comparing hot oxyhydrogen gas with cold & what you state is then true for a given volume. There are also other effects than can skew an observation; Your electrodes may be too surface area limited & the bubbling gas maybe too soon self-limits/blocks conductance in your warm water test.
           
          To break down water more efficiently, recycling or adding cheap heat is definitely the path to more gas overall, as heating water weakens its molecular bonds & enough heating breaks down water by itself (thermoelectrolysis).
           
          daveS


          From: Dan Parker <spiralairfoil@...>
          To: Joe <airbornewindenergy@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wed, March 24, 2010 10:48:15 AM
          Subject: RE: [AWECS] High Temperature Electrolysis (HTE) & Cheap Wind Power

           

             DaveS,
           
                     We found that by cooling the wind hydroxy conversion cell water  as close to the freezing point we were able to get the biggest bang for the buck, as (and if) the water heated up the potential explosive power per given volume of gas was deminished.
           
                                                                                                  Dan'l


          To: airbornewindenergy@ yahoogroups. com
          From: santos137@yahoo. com
          Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:37:00 -0700
          Subject: [AWECS] High Temperature Electrolysis (HTE) & Cheap Wind Power

           
          Electrolysis of water to generate hydrogen is usually represented as an inefficient process due to the high waste heat loss in "room temperature" operation. If the waste heat is recycled to progressively preheat the water the process becomes more efficient. Practical electrolysis with preheat (to about 900C) can almost double thermodynamic efficiency (from about 40% to 70%) & is called steam electrolysis or HTE. Cheap wind power might also mechanically preheat water (violent agitation) as a first stage to HTE.
           
          While gaseous hydrogen is a poor choice for mass energy storage, it may be just the thing for power leveling of a bursty AWE source, with fuel cells in a quick time frame, or a gas turbine on a longer cycle, preventing brown-out. An electrolysis cell can usefully absorb power surge & can be itself regulated by variable dipping of an electrode. KiteLab Group does calculations & benchtop experiments exploring the practicality of these ideas as applied to AWE & smart grids.
           
          coopip




          Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. Learn More.

        • Doug
          That s a great idea, and there are many windfarms that are thirsting for your new energy storage technology. Additionally if anyone can come up with an energy
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 24 10:37 AM
            That's a great idea, and there are many windfarms that are thirsting for your new energy storage technology. Additionally if anyone can come up with an energy storage technology that is more cost-effective than lead-acid batteries, they can write their own ticket, as the whole grid could be entirely different with such storage included. For example there are huge profits available NOW buying cheap electricity from idling nuke plants etc., at night, and reselling the power in the day for many times the price.
            One thing you might want to check that I've noticed as almost an epidemic in new technologies:
            You get caught up in endless possibilities/variations/complications rather than ever developing a simple actual working system. Without a reliable high altituide wind, energy system what is the use of adding more complication? At some point every new level of complication becomes just one more reason to NOT be able to get anything built but rather blog the days away while never developing anything that actually works.
            Hypothetical-land - a wonderful place. But it is limited to making hypothetical power which cannot be used. It may be difficult to revolutionize both wind energy AND energy storage simultaneously, especially through mere blogging. Best to disconnect the computer and build something. Sometimes I wonder about the mixed efffect of the web. The communication is great but if it carries the illusion that talk replaces action, that is a bad effect on our creativity.
            So all in all I would say pick a lane and if you have an answer in energy storage technology, that would easily be more than a full-time job in itself.
            Doug Selsam
            USWINDLABS.com

            --- In AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com, dave santos <santos137@...> wrote:
            >
            > Electrolysis of water to generate hydrogen�is usually represented as an inefficient process due to the high waste heat loss in "room temperature" operation. If the waste heat is�recycled to progressively preheat the water the process�becomes more efficient. Practical electrolysis with preheat (to about 900C)�can�almost double thermodynamic efficiency (from about 40% to 70%) & is called steam electrolysis or HTE. Cheap wind power�might also�mechanically preheat water (violent agitation)�as a first stage to HTE.
            >
            > While gaseous hydrogen�is a poor choice for mass energy storage, it may be just the thing for�power leveling of a bursty�AWE source, with fuel cells�in a quick time frame,�or a gas turbine on a longer cycle, preventing brown-out. An electrolysis cell can usefully absorb power surge & can be itself regulated by variable dipping of an electrode. KiteLab Group does calculations & benchtop experiments exploring the practicality of these ideas as applied to AWE & smart grids.
            >
            > coopip
            >
          • dave santos
            Doug, Thanks for the HTE feedback. Regarding how to work, the good news is that there are now many AWE folks working intensively on actual hardware & flying
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 24 12:04 PM
              Doug,
               
              Thanks for the HTE feedback. Regarding how to work, the good news is that there are now many AWE folks working intensively on actual hardware & flying trials who are hardly buried in idle theorizing (this forum takes minutes a day to monitor). Then there are fantastic theorizers who never get their hands dirty, but make major contributions. This forum is far too diverse to be a professional monoculture, so ideas constantly come from all directions & need not always connect.
               
              Solving the intermittency problem is a central AWE challenge & the many solutions must continue to be addressed on this forum. Integration with smart-grid standards is like planning for compliance with air-space regulations: Plan early or risk being left in the dust,
               
              daveS
               
              Note: Dan's anomaly may be pressure related; HTE is a high pressure process & an open-air (same pressure) comparative temperature electrolysis test would mask the true picture.
               


              From: Doug <doug@...>
              To: AirborneWindEnergy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wed, March 24, 2010 12:37:06 PM
              Subject: [AWECS] Re: High Temperature Electrolysis (HTE) & Cheap Wind Power

               

              That's a great idea, and there are many windfarms that are thirsting for your new energy storage technology. Additionally if anyone can come up with an energy storage technology that is more cost-effective than lead-acid batteries, they can write their own ticket, as the whole grid could be entirely different with such storage included. For example there are huge profits available NOW buying cheap electricity from idling nuke plants etc., at night, and reselling the power in the day for many times the price.
              One thing you might want to check that I've noticed as almost an epidemic in new technologies:
              You get caught up in endless possibilities/ variations/ complications rather than ever developing a simple actual working system. Without a reliable high altituide wind, energy system what is the use of adding more complication? At some point every new level of complication becomes just one more reason to NOT be able to get anything built but rather blog the days away while never developing anything that actually works.
              Hypothetical- land - a wonderful place. But it is limited to making hypothetical power which cannot be used. It may be difficult to revolutionize both wind energy AND energy storage simultaneously, especially through mere blogging. Best to disconnect the computer and build something. Sometimes I wonder about the mixed efffect of the web. The communication is great but if it carries the illusion that talk replaces action, that is a bad effect on our creativity.
              So all in all I would say pick a lane and if you have an answer in energy storage technology, that would easily be more than a full-time job in itself.
              Doug Selsam
              USWINDLABS.com

              --- In AirborneWindEnergy@ yahoogroups. com, dave santos <santos137@. ..> wrote:

              >
              > Electrolysis of water to generate hydrogen�is usually represented as an inefficient process due to the high waste heat loss in "room temperature" operation. If the waste heat is�recycled to progressively preheat the water the process�becomes more efficient. Practical electrolysis with preheat (to about 900C)�can�almost double thermodynamic efficiency (from about 40% to 70%) & is called steam electrolysis or HTE. Cheap wind power�might also�mechanically preheat water (violent agitation)�as a first stage to HTE.
              >
              > While gaseous hydrogen�is a poor choice for mass energy storage, it may be just the thing for�power leveling of a bursty�AWE source, with fuel cells�in a quick time frame,�or a gas turbine on a longer cycle, preventing brown-out. An electrolysis cell can usefully absorb power surge & can be
              itself regulated by variable dipping of an electrode. KiteLab Group does calculations & benchtop experiments exploring the practicality of these ideas as applied to AWE & smart grids.
              >
              > coopip
              >


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